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Trying to get good first impressions

By on August 14, 2008 2:27:42 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

image If you've been in one of our betas before you already understand what I'm about to talk about. But if this is your first beta, you may find this discussion interesting.

Our betas tend to be very beta. That is, rough. Whether it was Galactic Civilizations or Sins of a Solar Empire, our first betas tend to be pretty rough. Unfortunately, the higher the profile the game, the more likely people are going to try to use the beta as a way to judge the final game.  The first GalCiv beta was awful. I mean AWFUL.

Here's a screenshot of GalCiv II beta 1:

image

Here's the final game:

image

It's amazing how much can change in a few months. Bear in mind, this was a SEQUEL to an existing game in which it was the same games team working on it.

Sins of a Solar Empire went through the same evolution.

So right now, we are working on a ton of things in preparation for beta 1 including the opening screens to try to make them more friendly and well, more polished.  If you've developed a game before, you already know how things like finalized UI images often wait until very late. But the average consumer isn't going to be quite as understanding.

The stability of the beta is excellent. It's as stable as a released game IMO. The challenges will be compatibility, balancing, and taking in user feedback and implementing it.  We all have our own lists of things we want to address as soon as possible it's just a matter of prioritizing those changes and getting them in.

Some people at Stardock want to focus on the maps. Some at GPG want to nail down the in game UI functionality. Others want to incorporate additional strategic elements.  And believe it or not, this is the sausage factory that exists on every game whether it come from Blizzard to Bungie or Ensemble. We all go through this. 

Of course, the difference here is we plan to share with you a peek at the inner sausage factory in our development journals here and elsewhere so you can get a sense of what goes into making a AAA title.

+83 Karma | 29 Replies
August 14, 2008 2:38:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
"This tech preview does not represent final gameplay or final quality" Teeehee

That's a pretty looking main menu shot, though! I'm in the camp with the people who've tested games and Stardock games previously, so I understand the whole beta-ness issue.

Part of the problem is that when people hear "beta", they're used to those near-final games that are shown off basically for pure publicity. Especially since Fileplanet rolled out their beta program and most of the popular games end up as an open beta for Fileplanet subscribers. Which is also why, I suspect, most MMOs keep their betas under NDA the whole way through, until they do a public one (which, again, is the near-finished version).

Age of Conan did this, but their near-final version received so much flak because it was lacking, that their game director was posting letters left and right explaining things. To their credit, they did patch it up considerably before the actual release.

Still, I think most people would understand that the first beta 6+ months before the game's release is not meant to represent the finished thing. More attention to the game will be drawn the closer it gets to launch, but then the game will also be more finalized usually (not the case with Sins, I know )

For me, it's actually more fun playing the early and dirty betas if I am beta testing, than playing the near polished release candidates that are just used for publicity
August 14, 2008 2:59:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
I understand how the beta is going to be.
Just can't wait
August 14, 2008 3:10:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
I don't care how "rough" the beta will be; I'm still super psyched for it!!!
August 14, 2008 4:03:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
I'm with Annatar, I'm more interested in seeing the bare wiring behind the panels that are taken off the walls to be tinkered in. >)
Having made a few games myself in school I'm well aware of how crappy and unpolished a game can look before it's "done" and ready for presenting. I made a joke of it with one of my fellow programmers, stating, "it's amazing games work at all, they're held together by gum and duct tape until the end when everything comes together." Some times our games wouldn't even have vital functionality (jumping for instance! >D ) until the final weeks of our terms. Our crappy space RTS was particularly fun, nothing could actually shoot at each other until the final days. Up until then stuff just floated around in space at each other (though collisions did damage. Our carriers were the most effective combatants up until the end).
August 14, 2008 4:10:38 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
It certainly looks like it should be great from the beginning. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

Up until then stuff just floated around in space at each other

Classic quote if I ever heard one.
August 14, 2008 4:18:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Does that mean you preordered, Kitkun?
August 14, 2008 4:30:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Does that mean you preordered, Kitkun?

Soon as I get enough money... blasted college!

Now that I think about it, are the graphics considered almost completely finished on what we've seen?
August 14, 2008 4:39:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
The engine should be pretty much finished, yeah. The first beta phase will be stress testing it. Compatibility, stability, etc.. I expect there will be some placeholder graphics, possibly models. But on the whole, it should be pretty much done.
August 14, 2008 5:34:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
What i can't wait to see, is the game kind of.. Mould over the course of the betas. It will be excellent to see the thought process behind every decision and see the game develop into the final product. Simply awesome, can't wait!!
August 14, 2008 6:12:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
yayz for BETA
August 14, 2008 7:02:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Will this game have support for the high end systems? LIke x16 AA etc?
August 14, 2008 9:02:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Classic quote if I ever heard one.


Thanks. >D
The teachers thought it was rather funny too when they asked to see the game in action. Our large ships slowly turning in space and then ramming at each other were not the most thrilling things to watch, but at least it was networked and the carriers spawned fighter craft properly. ^.^;
August 14, 2008 9:05:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Hey nice screen of the menu there! Honestly this is my second Beta ( i beta tested for Guild wars for acouple days so maybe that doesnt count) I couldnt care less if you guys say it "wont be fun" i can pretty much guarantee that we WILL be having fun just testing the game out for you guys, if like me everyone else here loves games then it will be great just to participate.
August 14, 2008 9:12:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
I wouldn't get so jazzed until we actually get to the next phase of the beta, or at least until we actually get it. If the Demigod beta is anything like the betas I've seen in my classes, we're looking at basic functionality with minimal "fun" and repeated tweaking and updating over the months before release. We might not even see the real game until a couple weeks before release.

Of course, fun is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps bug hunting and documenting problems is fun for you. >)
August 14, 2008 9:44:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Ya I personally love watching the game evolve over the stages of beta. Its an awesome experiance. Ive done quite a few betas now.. and from what ive noticed different companys handle it a bit differently. Ive never done one for Gas Powered & Stardock so I look forward to it. And I will see u all there 8)
August 15, 2008 10:12:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Now that Nvidia made sure the PhysX market may actually be something to count on are you guys considering making Demigod PhysX compitable?

Seeing how so much stuff is calculated with the SupCom engine it may be a very good performance boost.

P.S, not to mention the PR you would receive from Nvidia for the game.
August 15, 2008 11:05:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
My biggest concern for the beta is that it will be unstable and crash when certain triggers and events happen(I hope that is not true). Problems like that are large scale. Exploits in games that make a character nigh invincible can also be a problem. Your general or assassin could be far superior than others. As in DotA i fear that there could be overpowered heroes in the game. The UI and Hotkeys should flow like a constant river like in DotA where hotkeys for skills are located on the left hand side of the keyboard only.
August 15, 2008 12:36:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Well, if it crashes during the beta, you will have to report it so it can be fixed. The entire point of the beta is to make it crash so it can be fixed . And I'm sure there will be OP Demigods at first, but eventually balance will be worked on.
August 15, 2008 4:24:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Tai_Waukosen Your thinking of a war craft 3 map kind of beta, Not a we want to make sure the game RUNS and crashes now are a good thing (as the can fix them early) kind of beta, which is what this is going to be.

We're not going to be (seriously) tweaking thinks like hot keys, ui, and hero balance until probably a month or two before release.
August 15, 2008 9:13:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums
Hey, no worries. I think I understand (programmer myself, delved into coding these kinds of games long time ago) why you do it this way... sort of a rapid prototyping model, get the functionality then polish it after the core elements are in place.

I came into this game from GalCiv II and went through the initial release up to before the last expansion (haven't got that yet, but want it.. still play a lot of GCII:DA though) and I've seen how much can be included in a patch, so I'm not worried at all. Game is plenty fun and I know it'll get more fun. I'd rather you took your time until it's to a stage you're comfortable with because I know it's worth waiting for.

Just my 0.02, I don't think I'm alone in my opinion either.
August 17, 2008 11:24:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Tai_Waukosen Your thinking of a war craft 3 map kind of beta, Not a we want to make sure the game RUNS and crashes now are a good thing (as the can fix them early) kind of beta, which is what this is going to be.We're not going to be (seriously) tweaking thinks like hot keys, ui, and hero balance until probably a month or two before release.


Well of course there are going to be crashes I acknowledge that. Yes catching these errors early are a good thing. But as games are molded and things such as hotkeys the UI, and the heroes being balanced are being added , there might be a little bit of corruption of code. Such as DotA itself, new version come around and the game crashes sometimes when certain events happen. This brings me to a question. Will there be some kind of log that will be kept while we are testing the beta , or will we have to take notes? It would be easier if there was soemthing to record what we were doing on the game to find out what events triggered the crashes and glitches.
August 18, 2008 11:39:53 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Now that Nvidia made sure the PhysX market may actually be something to count on are you guys considering making Demigod PhysX compitable?Seeing how so much stuff is calculated with the SupCom engine it may be a very good performance boost.P.S, not to mention the PR you would receive from Nvidia for the game.


The new PhysX by Nvidia needs a lot of CPU power (around 70-80%) and it??s faster than the "old" PhysX Cards. But these cards do not need so much extra CPU power.
If you stresses your CPU at 100% and try to run a game with the new PhysX by Nvidia, it??s as fast as the old way.
August 18, 2008 12:53:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Tai_Waukosen Your thinking of a war craft 3 map kind of beta, Not a we want to make sure the game RUNS and crashes now are a good thing (as the can fix them early) kind of beta, which is what this is going to be.We're not going to be (seriously) tweaking thinks like hot keys, ui, and hero balance until probably a month or two before release.Well of course there are going to be crashes I acknowledge that. Yes catching these errors early are a good thing. But as games are molded and things such as hotkeys the UI, and the heroes being balanced are being added , there might be a little bit of corruption of code. Such as DotA itself, new version come around and the game crashes sometimes when certain events happen. This brings me to a question. Will there be some kind of log that will be kept while we are testing the beta , or will we have to take notes? It would be easier if there was soemthing to record what we were doing on the game to find out what events triggered the crashes and glitches.


Most programmers will have an 'error log' (of whatever name, be it a minidump or an error report) to catch error details when a program crashes. Its just good programming. Not having one during a beta would be just plain insane!

Now, that said, there may be an extra log kept so they can reproduce crashes that somehow "skip" the error log / find the extra details that the error log can't catch -- I can't answer that. But it would seem like a good idea to me.
August 19, 2008 12:37:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Oh man I remember when game beta's where actual beta's. But that was 6+ years ago..


Frankly I DO judge games on the beta now days because they ARE just "preorder perks" and that's kind of how you guys are treating it.. people who want in beta have to preorder. You aren't selecting who you think would be actual good testers with good input.
I HAVE cancled games recently (Hellgate London springs to mind) based on their betas because I KNOW they aren't going to be fixing them by release.

Demigod I think is different, I hope it is, like Sins of a Solar Empire was, like beta's used to be.

The engine should be pretty much finished, yeah. The first beta phase will be stress testing it. Compatibility, stability, etc.. I expect there will be some placeholder graphics, possibly models. But on the whole, it should be pretty much done.


I'm betting unfinished unpolished demigods we simply won't get.. adn we won't get to look at the unfinished particle effects, missing animations, or anything. :/
August 22, 2008 6:32:29 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Itching to send a waft of singleplayer feedback mwahaa. Although I don't expect the first beta to have it!
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