pacov's League of Legends general discussion thread - strategies, etc #3

By on June 6, 2014 4:53:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

pacov

Join Date 02/2008
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Update 5/5/2016 -Stream is back!

 

Well, I started a thread back in Dec 2011 that’s seen a lot of activity (some 922,000 views over the course of a few years apparently...).  That thread had a good deal of tips/strategies/discussions about League of Legends from new and old players alike.  You can find the previous thread (now archived) here:  http://forums.joeuser.com/413863.  I think its time to start fresh with a new thread.

What’s this thread all about?
For those that followed the previous thread, the type of content you see here will be fairly consistent to what you are used to.  Please consider this a place to discuss LoL related content as you like.  I'll do the same and treat the thread as a blog as well where I talk about what’s going on with me in LoL.  Feel free to jump in and join the discussion if you like.

Quick background on me
I played a lot of Demigod as pacov/cheesuscrust. Back in August 2011, I started getting heavily involved in League of Legends, and folks from the community were kind enough to help me figure things out.  I play LoL most nights, stream, make videos and it’s my main gaming interest.

Some links 

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October 15, 2014 8:00:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, I watched the replay.  Kind of mixed results.  Some of my splits pushes were good, 1 was a completely bad idea and costly.  Another was good, but my team just threw the fight in a major way.  For example, its 4v5 mid while I'm working on the enemy inhibitor tower. My mid in that 4v5 decides to walk forward while the team is already safely disengaged.  She gets popped, people try to help her, then the whole team gets wiped.  So, while she might have been able to recover after making the boneheaded mistake of moving in when they are clearly disengaging if I was there, the problem was caused by a bad play which would did easily result in the inhib tower, but went to crap town.

I was going to piece together a vid and started making clips, but I think I've already absorbed what I did right and wrong from watching things in slow mo a bit.  Maybe I'll toss up a few clips after I finish playing tonight. 

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October 16, 2014 12:15:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

OK - I'm going to upload 2 clips re: that split pushing game.  watch and tell me what you think re: my pushing.  Take a sec and pause at the start to see the scoreboard, what objectives were up, etc.  There were more clips, but I lost interest after these 2. 

Updating in asec...

 

 

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October 16, 2014 12:22:18 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

K - vids will be here when done uploading - check in a bit if you are interested in this:

the 2nd vid doesn't have a link atm, so check the recent uploads here:

https://www.youtube.com/user/LeagueOfPacov/videos?sort=dd&shelf_id=1&view=0

Remember - pause at the start and look at the scores, what map objectives are up, etc. 

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October 16, 2014 10:54:59 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

hmm... don't know i the 2nd vid finished uploading or not.  Vid 1 is live now though... apparently I needed to click on publish to share it... smeh.  Probably have to try to upload vid 2 again after work (vid 2 is sadly the more interesting 1 imo). 

 

Anyway, I think I've got all my goofy and/or weak support shenanigans out of my system.

Having said that, I want to talk about support shaco as I put in more than a few reps in on him. To start off, I think its worth noting that prior to running support shaco, I've logged a decent amount of jungle shaco games.   Being experienced with those mechanics give me a bit of a leg up.  But - you play him very differently as a support.  For one, you almost never stealth in to try to land an aa + shiv.  Instead, you walk up to shiv and then stealth to reposition as needed. 

Anyway, its AP shaco with low gold income.  The build works well enough (spell thief+3 health pots (no ward) >upgraded spell thief>dorans ring>boots>ruby>sightstone>dfg>mpen boots> dcap or mpen wand).  lv 1-4 = W, E, E, Q.  max R>E>W>Q.  Setup 2 boxes to leash for jungler, then immediately lane and setup boxes on both sides of bushes.  Push out boxes strategically to zone and/or save.  If they try to clear the boxes, it typically means they get wrecked and can't trade favorable/get zoned.

OK - so what's good about shaco support.  1st and foremost, he zones very well in lane.  You don't setup some cheese shaco boxes (stacked), you place them intelligently to function as 1 min wards and to gain lane control.  You'll be surprised at how quickly you can control the lane and control where the enemy laners can move. 

He can do a reasonable amount of dmg with his shivs during laning and can safely ward pretty much anywhere using his deceive to hop to safety as needed and/or scout.  Side note - its preferable to only use his q to get to safety... and super easy to juke the enemy team simply by facing 1 direction and hopping to a different location. 

Anyway, you ideally transition to late game being able to safely chunk squishies on the enemy team using the dfg + a shiv + ign.  it's generally enough to get anyone to back out off a fight if not kill someone.  You generally don't split push and instead get out boxes + wards to gain a high level of control around choke points. 

Pros

  • Lane control
  • Higher kill potential
  • High vision control
  • people aren't used to it so they have difficulty countering it properly

Cons

  • You are support shaco and that at least sounds stupid
  • cc is not guaranteed - only probable
  • you need to be close enough to do damage, but you generally can't initiate
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October 16, 2014 12:39:55 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Cons: Lategame, you are playing a low gold AP Shaco.  Nobody thinks to themselves "man, what this team really needs is a low gold AP Shaco!".

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October 16, 2014 1:00:50 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

heh... take a look at my stats and itemization, though (scroll about half way down).

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=pacov

or look at the details and see what my gold amt is at relative to the other players. 

Fair point though re: people not thinking it fits - honestly it fits better than a jungle shaco in solo queue gold/plat level due to late game transitioning.  It has the same sort of trade offs you get when you run a burst support with arguably better zoning/adc protection.  It requires a decent skillset, though.  I'm finding the playstyle very useful late game. 

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October 16, 2014 1:07:52 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Tip i just read that I didn't know about:

Shaco - Using R:Hallucinate doesn't break stealth. Try stealthing into a group and using you're ult before attacking. With luck, you're foes will drop their cooldowns on the clone before you come out of stealth, greatly reducing their combat effectiveness in the fight. Don't worry about losing the crit from your Q either as there is a small window after your stealth drops for your attack to crit.

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October 16, 2014 2:31:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,

heh... take a look at my stats and itemization, though (scroll about half way down).

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=pacov

or look at the details and see what my gold amt is at relative to the other players. 

Fair point though re: people not thinking it fits - honestly it fits better than a jungle shaco in solo queue gold/plat level due to late game transitioning.

Solo Queue is a term most people use for Ranked games, not Normal games I believe.  And especially not Teambuilder.

There seems to be some potential to Support Shaco, but I've grown a little distrustful of the results of playing non-meta champions in non-ranked games.  I think we'd all be very interested to see how it does, so give us a heads up if you ever decide see for sure how well it fits in Ranked.

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October 16, 2014 2:58:23 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I can't really see Shaco being better in the late game than Zyra would, and they fill similar roles early on with the epic zoning potential.  He does have horrendous kill potential though.  That fear, while less reliable than some CC, should still lead to guaranteed kills when it goes off at the right time.  Being able to get back behind the enemy carry and fear them as they try to escape is very powerful.

 

If you've got a good carry that can pick up the kills and win the lane, even if he's less impressive late game it shouldn't be an issue.

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October 16, 2014 3:53:06 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Thundercles,

I think we'd all be very interested to see how it does, so give us a heads up if you ever decide see for sure how well it fits in Ranked.

The fella that plays shaco support only is master tier.  He's the guy that wrote up the build and gave some playstyle examples in an ama on reddit a few days ago.  Keep in mind that master tier vs master tier champs, etc.  Also keep in mind that I'm not equating my skill level with support shaco with his - just giving a clear, ranked example of someone that seems to stay at master tier playing mostly shaco support... which I think illustrates his strengths. 

What I want to call out is that in all my games on team builder - even though weird elo occurs here and there, I've yet to really come across any over the top weaknesses against any support I've come up against other than sustain lanes make it more difficult - but you can still maintain solid zone control enabling easy adc farming.  The only times I've had trouble really are related directly to having a weak adc that chooses to get wrecked by feeding or getting chunked unnecessarily (eg I get a weak arse adc that is silver and were up against diamond/plat bot lane).  Things like that don't tell me support shaco is bad, though. 

 

Anyway, 7 games on team builder - 4 wins, 3 losses.  1 loss due to dc, 1 loss due to awful mid/adc.  1 loss due to a nonstop split pushing lee sin. All games I would have lost with any support with the exception of perhaps lux or annie.  When I play enough with a champ, I generally come up with reasons why I shouldn't play certain champs in specific roles - I haven't come up with a good reason not to play shaco as support yet. 

 

re: zyra - well, in lane, I think shaco has an edge on zoning, though zyra is certainly no slouch there - just not as good imo.  Late game shaco still provides better "set up" zone control.  Zyra's ult gives her the edge on creating instant group zone control/cc.  I think I might like zyra better late game if we are comparing dmg support shaco to dmg support zyra.  She can provide more dps than shaco can put out as shaco is mostly disruption and single target. 

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October 16, 2014 4:39:37 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting pacov,

heh... take a look at my stats and itemization, though (scroll about half way down).

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=pacov

or look at the details and see what my gold amt is at relative to the other players. 

Teambuilder means nothing - those games are what people do when they are goofing around or trying out new crap.  Easily the lowest quality games.  And the way that support Shaco seems to be getting gold relative to a normal support is by getting kills.  Is a support that is better at kill stealing really a good thing?  Given how time you have spent complaining about people stealing "your" kills, I would think that you would prefer supports that lock down kills for the carries as opposed to taking them themselves.

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October 16, 2014 4:55:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

2 kills in a game isn't getting gold by kill stealing.  His gold revenue is pretty normal for a support that builds up their farm item early and puts it to decent use.  Being 2k gold behind the farmers at the end of a game is a pretty typical result for a decent support.  You wont keep up with whoever ends up carrying most of the kills, but you keep with the rest of the team pretty well.  An AP support can do significant damage just fine without robbing their partner of kills.  They just have to pass on some support utility, like getting Aegis, buying lots of extra wards.

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October 16, 2014 5:04:13 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting psychoak,

2 kills in a game isn't getting gold by kill stealing.  His gold revenue is pretty normal for a support that builds up their farm item early and puts it to decent use.  Being 2k gold behind the farmers at the end of a game is a pretty typical result for a decent support.  You wont keep up with whoever ends up carrying most of the kills, but you keep with the rest of the team pretty well.  An AP support can do significant damage just fine without robbing their partner of kills.  They just have to pass on some support utility, like getting Aegis, buying lots of extra wards.

Since he was referencing his gold amount relative to teammates, I was assuming he was referring to his multiple games with 5-8 kills.  Since that would make sense.

AP supports that do damage tend to do their damage up front.  Think Annie.  She can initiate, do a bunch of damage, then hand off the kill to the ADC.  Thats ideal.  Assassins assassinate.  Thats not ideal on a support - Shaco can't initiate even to the somewhat limited degree that most AP carries can (unless the other team is stupid).  And because of this, he is a finisher (also not ideal on supports).

 

I don't have a problem with off meta supports.  I just don't like off meta supports that can't initiate, can't peel for carries, and are based more around taking the kills from carries.  Not a fan of how that works even in theory.

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October 16, 2014 5:14:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

His gold amounts are pretty close between the 5-8 kill games and the 1 and 2 kill games.

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October 16, 2014 5:31:38 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting psychoak,

His gold amounts are pretty close between the 5-8 kill games and the 1 and 2 kill games.

Comparing gold amounts across games isn't very meaningful since it will be hugely affected by things like "how many towers were taken", and "how many dragons were taken", and "how many barons were taken", especially for a support.

The original topic was his gold with respect to teammates.  Since all the teammates will have roughly the same gold from towers/dragons/etc, we can meaningfully look at how his gold is doing compared to his teammates in ~2 kill games vs ~8 kill games.  And behold, in 2 kill games he has typical support gold, and in 8 kill games he has abnormally high support gold (with respect to the rest of his team).

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October 16, 2014 5:49:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

MASTER TIER

"One trick ponies" often have thousands of games just this season. Thousands! On one champ!

Annie Bot (Master - Annie): 2200 games on Annie just in the past 11 months.

Mister Oink (currently Diamond II, formerly Master - AP Sejani mid): 1050 games on Sejani this season.

Lily Lancer (Master, Shaco support): 950 of shaco this season on just ONE of his FIVE accounts

 

Now, part of playing the game is having fun. i think we can all agree that there is a certain amount of weight to be put into playing champions you enjoy, rather than solely champions that have the highest PBW.

But until you start putting in hundreds of games of support Shaco, this guys success isn't something that you can use to support your own argument. You aren't at all like him.

These people are clearly mechanically strong. You pretty much have to be in order to play that much. If the point was to climb, don't you think that they would have hit Master Tier much faster playing meta champs? What do you think was the "win % penalty" for his ADC going on tilt because "fuck this shit. i got troll support shaco in my promo series". 1%? 3%? 5%? That means he has to be good enough at the champion to overcome a negative teamstart before the game has even started!

TEAMBUILDER

i'm going to make a statement here that has no statistical basis. i've never kept track of these records, but my own support evidence is this:

Even the best players in the world, on their mains, have only a ~55% winrate.

This means that, even the best players in the world, have, control only about 10% of their total number of games won (assuming the vast majority of players fall within a 45-55% win rate when playing against similarily skilled opponents).

My claim is the following:

There are 5 types of games. Each make up about 20% of your overall games.

First, you have games you are almost always going to lose. Aced in the jungle. 3-11 at 8 minutes, etc.

Second, you have games where you're somewhat behind at 20 minutes, but there's hope. You tend to lose these games more than you win, but you still win them sometimes. You're a few towers/kills/dragons behind a team with better scaling.

Third, these are the close games. Objectives are traded, nothing earned for free. Kills are close. Both teams contest vision and have similar scaling.

Fourth, are the games where you are reasonably ahead. You'll probably win these, but you can always throw.

Finally, are games you have no business losing. It happens still, sometimes, but it really shouldn't.

 

Some champions are better in certain kinds of games (except champs that are just mega-OP). Stalling mids like Anivia and Ziggs, as well as safe hypercarries such as Trist and Ryze are really good at turning around #2. Assassins and high damage mid-game ADCs like Corki and Lucian are really good at closing out #4 games.

Some champs are really bad in #1. Like jungle Tryndamere. Some champs are incredible at #5.

 

Now, you're a programmer so you should be familiar with Amdahl's Law and the Optimization problem.

Let's say, as an example, there exists a champion who is just incredible at turning around games of type #1, and average-at-best in every type of other game. This champion would probably be the most OP thing ever, because they'd be able to win, probably, 70% of their games.

On the other hand, there exists a champion who is incredible at closing out games of type #5, but average at everything else. They'd probably still "only" have a 50% win rate.

Since i don't think there are any champions that are able to turn around #1s that aren't going to be retarded OP, and making #5 games from a 98% winrate to a 100% winrate doesn't really mean anything, you really should only be focusing on game types #2, #3, and #4.

 

You said you lost one game because of a "retard mid". For argument's sake, let's classify that as a #2 game. Let's look at some supports that are able to fulfill some of a mid's functions: Zyra, Lux and Sona (as an AoE initator). Annie is a mage-like support, but she tends to struggle when behind. These champs have some sort of ranged CC that allows them to make a pick, offer some auxiliary waveclear. Sona and Lux both have shields to prevent poke from the enemy fed midlaner. Zyra and Lux both have safe "reveal the bush" abilities, preventing fatal facechecks.

The fact of the matter is, Shaco is going to be really bad in #2 games. He doesn't have the ability to consistently CC a fed target that is munching up your team. AoE mages are going to be out of range. Fed assassins have multiple juicy targets (everyone but top lane), and you can't keep them all safe. You can't assassinate a fed Tristana.

Luckily, he has some benefit in #3 and #4 games. Deceive allows him to ward much safer than normal supports. Boxes contribute additional vision and make him less dependent on the team doing their part of the warding. Boxes provide good zoning potential for dragons, and hallucinate can tank objectives such as towers. In #4 games, a fast DFG allows him to clean up after fights, and enhance his teams damage .

Of the 3 supports i listed above, plus Annie... also are really good in #3 and #4 games. Sona, Lux, Zyra, and Annie can all do incredible 4 or 5 man ults that instantly win games. Zyra in particular can have massive damage with just a Liandries. Tibbers can tank towers, Sona can heal up baron damage, Lux and Zyra can do some great roots against enemy facechecks.

Of course, Sona is not-so-good in #5 games, espiecially compared to support Shaco.

So, the way i see it is:

- Shaco is really bad in #1 games, but those don't matter.

- He's also really good in #5 games, but those also don't matter

- Nearly all supports have a consistent power curve in #2, #3, #4 games.

- Shaco is not significantly better than most supports in any #3 game. He does not have the same teamfight support, but he does offer very unique vision advantages. So we'll call it a draw.

- Shaco is worse in #2 games

- Shaco is better in a #4 game, assuming what your team needs is more damage. Most teams do not need more damage, since we are already in a squishy, damage-focused meta. AoE initiation is extremely powerful and is typically only found on tank junglers - not particularly popular atm - and supports. If your team needs AoE initiation, then Shaco is worse than other options.

- Shaco support will put some people on tilt, causing an instant 1-5% reduction of winnable games.

 

 

 

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October 16, 2014 5:54:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,

The fella that plays shaco support only is master tier.  He's the guy that wrote up the build and gave some playstyle examples in an ama on reddit a few days ago.  Keep in mind that master tier vs master tier champs, etc.  Also keep in mind that I'm not equating my skill level with support shaco with his - just giving a clear, ranked example of someone that seems to stay at master tier playing mostly shaco support... which I think illustrates his strengths. 

It's interesting when top level players have success specializing with alternative champions.

A similar situation was when there was a Diamond Sejuani only player doing well with her going mid every chance he got.  Did he discover a secret OP Mid champion?  Is/was AP Sejuani Mid our ticket to Diamond as well?  Most likely not.  Unless you were sitting around thinking to yourself "Golly I love playing Sejuani... wish I could play her all the time but I hate playing Jungle." his accomplishments wouldn't be much use.

That player knew how to play every matchup.  His opponents didn't.  They probably didn't realize who their opposing laner was for sure until the laning phase actually started.  Pretty big advantage.

But maybe Support Shaco is way better.  So what happens now?  I can think of some possibilities:

-Is totally OP.  Shaco is now permabanned.  Why bother learning?

-Is really good.  People learn how to play him.  And play against him.  That's already starting.  I've got some ideas who I'd play and how I'd play against him now, where as before facing him woulda been an auto loss for me.  You used to play Shaco a lot and still you've just learned something new about him because of the hype.  That's going to start eating away at the "Shaco Support?!" advantage he has.  Becomes just an okay, situational Support.

-Is Low Elo Fool's Gold.  Master Tier players have a different level of skill than you and me and their meta is probably a bit different.  Shaco might end up being like Lee/Elise:  Great in high level games with high level players... but not as wonderful for the rest of us.

Anyway, if you're having fun with him great but there is no need to go to the trouble of linking Teambuilder statistics in the future.

 

Edit: Hedgshenned!

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October 16, 2014 7:15:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Still making clips and will read stuff later.  Made a few highlights.  1st game I'm with an unranked adc up against a diamond 5 adc and a gold V support. 

This last one was just fun

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October 16, 2014 7:41:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Oh - and let me stop the secret op bandwagon.  I don't think this is.  I haven't found magical candy land.  Just having fun and thinking through the realistic pros and cons. 

now I want to play him some more... smeh.  Think I'm going to try ign/exh support

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October 16, 2014 7:48:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i think that there is a bit of miscommunication in exactly what is happening here and why those videos don't really mean much (for us - maybe they mean a lot to you because it allows you to gain some insight on your play):

i don't think anyone here is trying to convince you that you shouldn't play Shaco ever.

We are all saying: You won't see the results that you could more easily obtain on another, more conventional support for a wide variety of reasons. Until you play hundreds of games, of course. But don't let that stop you and it's totally fine if you play that in Team Builder because that's what those suckers get. TeamBuilder is about playing more relaxed games on newer champions. But we are going to take what you have to say about support Shaco with a grain of salt until you play dozens of games in Ranked. And, until then, we probably would prefer if you did not inflict it upon us.

We aren't saying: It is literally impossible for you to win a game with support Shaco. Or, "you should quit support Shaco".

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October 17, 2014 12:04:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

We aren't saying: It is literally impossible for you to win a game with support Shaco. Or, "you should quit support Shaco".

yes - I don't feel attacked. I feel like discussing shaco as a support.  That's all.  That's why I'm saying things like I don't think I found the magical op champ, etc.  Let's just chat eh.

 

That said, I had 1 lag free game tonight.  I played shaco in it... HORRIBLY.  Played another as support shaco and the lag started.  Played adc after restarting my router, etc - AWFUL packet loss.  Adc unplayable.  Won because of other peoples and had zero fun.  Last game of the night had minimal packet loss, but still there.  Mostly really disappointing games because the lag was completely unpredictable.  Good 1 game.  .75 seconds between clicking and things happening another... followed by frozen for 10 seconds... followed by kinda normal... followed by dc'd from game... sigh

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out what's going on.  I know people have been going on about the packet loss on reddit.  I did not have any prior to tonight.  I also had my lawn aerated today... so I'm wondering if something happened to the line.  Really not sure in the slightest... lots of weird stuff today.

 

 

Oh and my vids only purpose is to show support shaco playstyle here and there.  Unless, of course, you all are familiar with it... which I'm sure you are... what with it being a common thing. The vids are just in case you peeps are interested. 

Check back later, but I'm uploading a couple more vids now if you are interested.  I think I provided a little commentary on these.

No link for the other vid.. but it SHOULD publish when done.

 

 

I only had a chance to skim some of the posts.  Karl made some really good points re: why not to ap shaco support.  talked about in some detail on stream.  I reply some after I read these things tomorrow. Night all!

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October 17, 2014 9:00:39 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Here's the 2nd vid for anyone that is interested - looks like the clips are super short. 

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October 17, 2014 9:56:46 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

and now reading through all the comments:

re: hedgie's "There are 5 types of games" bit.  I think that classification makes sense (going to reiterate it below concisely).  I think it would be more interesting to see how we compare other supports w/ regards to the list.

  • Games you should lose
  • Games you should lose, but there is hope
  • Games that are even and could go either way
  • Games you should win, but its close
  • Games you should win

Now that I think of it... its actually pretty difficult to classify supports like this because it really depends on overall team composition and what you need at the time.  Does my team need a support that can disengage or force an engagement?  Do we need a support that can get to the back row?  Do we need someone that can put out a ton of damage?  It all gets kind of tricky. All of those types of games are heavily influenced by what the team needs and that is a variable based on comp/what's happening right then. Anyone have any ideas how we can better categorize things?

I do agree that unconventional supports move people towards tilt.  And add in unconventional supports that are likely to take your money...

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

But don't let that stop you and it's totally fine if you play that in Team Builder because that's what those suckers get.

haha.  They say "why shaco support.?"  I say "cuz f you."  Not really, though.    Surprisingly, I haven't come across anyone mouthing off in team builder re: my shaco picks. I think there's that bit of understanding when you choose to lock in ready that you are accepting that there is a shaco support.  Team builder helps mitigate that type of rage quite a bit. 

Quoting Krazikarl,

I don't have a problem with off meta supports. I just don't like off meta supports that can't initiate, can't peel for carries, and are based more around taking the kills from carries. Not a fan of how that works even in theory.

I get that, but shaco does have peel with his boxes + threat of death + added damage on ult.  shaco is highly disruptive in laning. Just some thoughts anyway

 

 

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October 17, 2014 12:23:22 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting pacov,

Now that I think of it... its actually pretty difficult to classify supports like this because it really depends on overall team composition and what you need at the time.

Sure.  But the point was that teams essentially never want inconsistent assassins from the support slot.  Just not something thats desirable.  The extra vision from boxes is nice, don't get me wrong.  But there are a lot of other problems.

Quoting pacov,

I get that, but shaco does have peel with his boxes + threat of death + added damage on ult.  shaco is highly disruptive in laning. Just some thoughts anyway

Yes, Shaco is fine early.  But he is not so good late.  When played in jungle, you can probably make the case that his early game is so strong that it can sometimes overcome his weakish late game.  But can you really claim that his laning phase is so strong that it makes up for his not good late game when play as support?  I just don't see that.

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October 17, 2014 12:59:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Now that I think of it... its actually pretty difficult to classify supports like this because it really depends on overall team composition and what you need at the time.  Does my team need a support that can disengage or force an engagement?  Do we need a support that can get to the back row?

Keeping in mind, again, my conclusion did not have much support statistical evidence... One of the premises for my conclusion was that you have only about a 10% impact on your overall win rate. Additionally, i was assuming this is mostly in the SoloQ environment where team comp is going to be a bit haphazard; usually 4/5 people have 1-2 roles with 2-3 champs that they want to play. So it was addressing more of "which 2-3 champs should i focus on" rather than "which champ should i play THIS GAME".

Anyway, part of my assumption is that the matchmaking is not always on your side. Even if you get your best roles and champs and carry hard, maybe your jungler is on mega tilt and is going to go afk farm the jungle for 10 minutes after the first bad countergank. Maybe there's a smurf on the enemy team. Etc etc.

It's supposed to be a guideline of "which champs should i pick to make my 10% as good as it can be", as opposed to "which champ should i play this game".

If you remove the tilting risk of Shaco Support, Shaco Support might be really-really good in Bronze as a Plat+ player. You're able to provide tons of vision, you can contribute meaningful damage to out-of-position carries, and force your team to take objectives with ult via tanking. Because, you're going to have a lot of "#4" type games (due to the mistmatch in MMR), and you want a champion that excels in that environment.

So if you anticipate a lot of #4 games, Shaco might be a really really good champ to play.

Classifying supports

One of the reasons supports are, well, supports, is because they perform very consistently, regardless of gold income. For this reason, supports are going to all perform pretty well, regardless of how behind or ahead your team is. But some supports are still going to be better or worse in some games.

Janna or Nami are going to be better in #2 type games, since they can offer a lot of anti-dive and sustain against stronger teams.

Annie or Zyra are going to be better in #4 games, due to their ability to tank objectives + a large amounts of AoE damage and waveclear.

Shaco tilt in teambuilder

i agree, you probably are not going to see as many ragers in TeamBuilder, and i was more making a joke than being serious there. People being okay with off-meta is one of its best attributes. Team Builder isn't a "Bad" queue. But it is still a "Casual" one.

 

 

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