pacov's League of Legends general discussion thread - strategies, etc #3

By on June 6, 2014 4:53:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

pacov

Join Date 02/2008
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Update 5/5/2016 -Stream is back!

 

Well, I started a thread back in Dec 2011 that’s seen a lot of activity (some 922,000 views over the course of a few years apparently...).  That thread had a good deal of tips/strategies/discussions about League of Legends from new and old players alike.  You can find the previous thread (now archived) here:  http://forums.joeuser.com/413863.  I think its time to start fresh with a new thread.

What’s this thread all about?
For those that followed the previous thread, the type of content you see here will be fairly consistent to what you are used to.  Please consider this a place to discuss LoL related content as you like.  I'll do the same and treat the thread as a blog as well where I talk about what’s going on with me in LoL.  Feel free to jump in and join the discussion if you like.

Quick background on me
I played a lot of Demigod as pacov/cheesuscrust. Back in August 2011, I started getting heavily involved in League of Legends, and folks from the community were kind enough to help me figure things out.  I play LoL most nights, stream, make videos and it’s my main gaming interest.

Some links 

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awuffleablehedgie
October 7, 2014 12:01:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ah gotcha then.

 

OK - been a bit since the last contest.  Here's the prize - 1 mystery skin (immediate delivery if you are already on my pal list - delayed if you are not ofc).  Let's do whoever is my 16,500 viewer on the twitch stream.  Currently at about 14k.  I must be streaming when the 16.5 view occurs.  Screenshot and get a prize.  Participate if you like such things.  Without manipulation that's about 2 weeks or so out. 

Night everybody. 

edit - oh and no ranked play tonight.  My pal trick was not on when I was.  Just got into a bunch of normals, etc.  Nothing super exciting, but I was able to play with a bunch of different people including folks I don't usually get to play with.  Don't hesitate to ask me for help if you think I can help you hit your ranked goals for the season.  Preferable if you are gold trying to hit plat before EOS so I don't have to try to hyper carry ofc. 

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October 7, 2014 12:15:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I haven't done a stat pull in some time.  Here's where folks I tracked last season are currently sitting as of 10/7

  • pacov - Plat V
  • krazikarl - gold II
  • Thundercleese - gold V
  • hunnybadger - Plat V
  • zodiark - gold V (brad wong took most of the season to get his placement matches done and ended up gold V - prob done for the season with that)
  • bryff - gold III
  • blackhathedgehog - gold I
  • danknee - diamond V
  • Thegameofthrows - diamond V
  • swanvicious - gold II (looks like swan has been playing a ton of ranked - tis swan right?  If so, nice!)
  • zengod - Plat III

 

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October 7, 2014 2:44:21 AM from PoliticalMachine Forums PoliticalMachine Forums

yeah it's me... having much better luck in solo than duo... 

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October 7, 2014 9:08:23 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

That's great, bro!  Grats on the solo climb.  Shooting for plat before end of season? 

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October 7, 2014 1:19:16 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

So, current trends - past 7 days, ranked solo queue, Plat elo

Highest win rate champs

  • Rammus 56.59% - 9% of all games
  • Fiora 54.95% - 5.6% of all games
  • Janna 54.42% - 25% of all games
  • Fiddlesticks 54.25% - 7.01% of AG
  • Sona 54.05% - 4.93% of AG
  • Heimer 54.03% - 1.5% of AG
  • WW 53.75% - 10.29% of AG
  • Amumu 53.74% - 13.09% of AG
  • Khazix 53.47% - 29.13% of AG
  • Katarina 53.41% - 14.41%

I'd ignore the Heimer due to % of sample, but its notable that WW, Amumu, Kha, And Kat are all being picked >10% of AG

Most popular champs, Lucian, Thresh, Lee Sin, Kha, Cait, Janna, Zed, Vayne, J4, Leona.

Note that Kha/Janna are the 2 with higher win rates of those popular champs, but lucian/thresh is most common to see.

Bans -

  • Trist - 78% of the time banned
  • Yasuo - 72% of the time banned
  • Kha - 62% of the time banned
  • Zed - 40% of the time banned
  • Morg - 38% of the time banned
  • Lucian - 35% of the time banned
  • Mao - 30% of the time banned
  • Fizz - 27% of the time banned
  • Braum - 18% of the time banned
  • Zil - 16% of the time banned

Here we see kha.  Him showing up at a high win rate, a high ban rate, a high pick indicate current strength imo and indicates the nerf smackdown is otw.  If I was a better kha (was good once now smeh), this would be the time to pick him and jungle as much as possible imo. 

I think seeing braum bans are pretty silly at this point - I feel like he's dropped off a ton, but he does have around a 50.75% win rate - about even with Morg - also a common ban.  Compare that to Leona's 53% win rate.  I get the morg ban due to nuisance/team lock down, but Braum is just a bad ban now imo. 

I still see yasuo as a top tier pick due to carry potential, but there's actually quite a few things going on here.  1 - his ban rate is through the roof at 72%.  This means that public perception of him is that he's OP.  The kicker, when folks actually do get to play him, his win rate is at 50%... which generally indicates a balanced champ.  Also, those that have to play against him are generally more competent about countering him.  At any rate, still a super high up pick for me whenever he's available due to potential to either carry hard out of lane or turn a bit fight thanks to dmg + cc + initiation.  Anyway, on PBE, he took a HUGE nerf to base HP (was down like 60 hp or something drastic).  I think he's going to get nerfed into oblivion, then folks will get used to him being crap, not ban him anymore, then he'll get a buff and come out weaker than he is today.

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October 7, 2014 1:27:06 PM from PoliticalMachine Forums PoliticalMachine Forums

yeah i want that plat.  long shot, but i think i can.  I've been pretty solid lately.  

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October 7, 2014 2:00:35 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting pacov,
I still see yasuo as a top tier pick due to carry potential, but there's actually quite a few things going on here.  1 - his ban rate is through the roof at 72%.  This means that public perception of him is that he's OP.  The kicker, when folks actually do get to play him, his win rate is at 50%... which generally indicates a balanced champ.

I'd disagree with this.

Now let's say I suddenly decided that Yasuo was gonna be my ticket to Platinum.  I haven't played him much, but it's my understanding that he takes some practice and skill to use.  Sure, facerolling against Silvers in teambuilder might make him seem like the most OP champ ever but in Ranked it's probably good to be really dialed in against good Mid main players.

So here I am with a new "main" that's available to use in one out of four games.  So, IF I get to be mid and IF the enemy team doesn't pick him I get to play a champ that needs to be played often to be played well.  And he's a champ that goes better with a team full of knock up champs and an AP top if possible.

And he's still a 50% win rate with people playing him without being practiced in him, with forcing him onto non-ideal team comps all the time?

50% win rate under those circumstances is OP IMO.

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October 7, 2014 3:07:32 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

hmm... maybe... provided my data re: yasuo was spot on and not from an aggregate... let's look at the actual stats now instead.

Past week - ranked solo, SR, Plat - note - my last stats were for ALL REGIONS - This is just NA

His ban rate in NA only - 55%

Diamond

  • Pick rate - 11-12%
  • Win rate - 44%

PLAT

  • Pick rate - 9% (all stats combined his pick rate is about 28% with a 50% win rate)
  • Win rate - 43-44%

Gold

  • Pick rate - 10%
  • Win rate - 46%

Silver

  • Pick rate - 9%
  • Win rate - 46%

Bronze

  • Pick rate - 12%
  • Win rate - 48-49%

Anyway, my bad for how I presented the yasuo specific data.  This is much more accurate.  Again, NA only, ranked solo queue on SR. You can see that he shines quite a bit at lower skill level's and is fairly well countered at higher levels of play.  Yet the perception is that he's super strong. 

Also - I just looked at the bottom 10 lowest win rate champs for plat.  YASUO IS ON THAT LIST (with urgot/azir).  To be fair, though, only at the plat level. 

He's strong for that initiation/cc/dmg potential, but I believe overrated by the community at large.  Yet - I'm still in the "ban yasuo" boat, so I'm still drinking the kool-aid.  I think the problem is how much potential he brings even if not doing incredibly well - and how he can fit into many comps because of his ult or q. 

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October 7, 2014 3:08:56 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Thundercles,

And he's a champ that goes better with a team full of knock up champs and an AP top if possible.

And he's still a 50% win rate with people playing him without being practiced in him, with forcing him onto non-ideal team comps all the time?

Well, one thing that has to be realized is that running all AD teams isn't a substantial disadvantage right now.

Riot, in search of #lcstopplays, has nerfed defensive items into the ground.  The classic defensive items have just received so many repeated nerfs that they are horribly inefficient compared to offensive items.  This is why instead of seeing lineups with 2 bruisers+2 damage dealers+2 support, you generally see 1 bruiser+3 damage+support, or even 4 damage dealers+support.  And the best bruisers are now generally AP bruisers (Mao, Malphite, Amumu, Ryze, etc) instead of the more classic bruisers who would actually build the more classic bruiser items.

The theory nowadays seems to be to avoid tanking and initiating with bad items, and instead use evasion and the extreme mobility creep as pseudo tanking (along with a few examples of AP bruisers who can build decent items like RoA, Zhonyas, etc), and just go straight DPS.

Traditionally, "all AD" lineups had the weakness of being countered with armor.  Now, if teams stack armor against them, that team has bought crap items.  So they aren't really gaining an advantage.  Sure Yasuo would like his team to pick extra knockup, but he doesn't really need that much knockup to work.

Basically, I feel that people should feel free to pick AD mids without fear of team comp even in solo queue.  It just doesn't matter right now.

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October 7, 2014 3:32:24 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting pacov,

He's strong for that initiation/cc/dmg potential, but I believe overrated by the community at large. 

I'm pretty sure that we have had this conversation about statistics and highly banned champions a couple of times in the past.

Don't overinterpret stats in a simplistic way.  Thats not how stats or data analysis works.

Champions with very high ban rates, whether its Yasuo or pre nerf Kass or any of a number of other examples, tend to have somewhat low win rates.  Does this mean they are necessarily overrated?  Not necessarily.  You just have a lot of people who feel obliged to play the super-OP champion if they aren't banned.  But they don't know how to play the champion a lot of the time, and playing a strong champion badly usually doesn't work as well as playing a decent champion well.

The opposite happens with some very mediocre champions.  This has classically been Rammus for quite a while.  Rammus is always stuck at a very high winrate, but a low playrate.  Has Rammus always been super OP because of his winrate?  Not really - he is just largely played by Rammus specialists, which inflates his winrate.  (Also, Rammus winrate is going up since he does well in all squishy meta mentioned above, but thats a separate issue since his winrate has always been high).

 

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October 7, 2014 4:22:09 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Along those same lines, its a little crazy to assume that reduced ban rate = a big win rate spike, right? 

Here's the thing - we look at the stats and observe trends.  I find this sort of analysis beneficial if you catch on to trends before they are widely known (typically best to observe after patches having read the patch notes in detail).  The trend on yasuo is low win rate, high ban rate. I think I've accurately predicted what will happen re: yas (riot will nerf, people will still ban for a bit, then come around to not banning him - then minor buff).  His win rate will dip even lower if he gets the current proposed base health nerf on pbe.

What's interesting is a need to further nerf him to get him to a point where he might not get banned when he appears statistically weaker.  And we have no model other than assuming that if his ban rate declines, he'll be used by more experienced players and have an increased win rate... when it could also mean that he's available to more crappy players as well.  Balancing champs based on ban rate and not win rate.... hurm says me.  But I'm not sure of a better way to get people to allow yasuo more play. I'd argue (nonsensically) people are banning him to keep players on their own team from using him - such a low win rate certainly seems like its detrimental to have him on your team unless you like your carries in the <50% win rate land.

also - I wouldn't totally discount the buff rammus received re: his win rate stats.  I see an increase in wr on like rammus, I think what's changed with him, what's the current trend in meta, if there was a change, is his win rate related to him getting more play as people are trying out that change now, etc. 

 

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October 7, 2014 5:03:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Anyway, my bad for how I presented the yasuo specific data.  This is much more accurate.  Again, NA only, ranked solo queue on SR. You can see that he shines quite a bit at lower skill level's and is fairly well countered at higher levels of play.

Well, you're also forgetting one important statistic: P/B/W of the World Champs. Obviously the WCS are a whole different meta (Zilean is a 96% PB), play-style and entirely different planning. Also note that i don't actually put a huge amount of pressure on PBW, but since you're the one making the argument and WCS refutes it...

16th highest PB rate @ 38%

Of the 11 games he was picked, he went 7-4, with a win rate of 64%.

Of the 20 highest PB champs, only 7 had a win rate of < 50%: Khazix (47%), Lucian (48%), Nami (40%), Tristana (42%), Nidalee (20%), Syndra (30%), Fizz (33%).

Of those 7, all but 2 were picked at least 10 times: Nami with 5 picks, and Fizz with 9.

So there's a few things that we can """conclude""":

Apparently Kha'zix is actually a very balanced champion and not at all Freelo.

At the very highest level of play, Yasuo is incredibly powerful when team comps are built around him. This supports Thunder's statement about high ban rate on a mechanicallly difficult champion => lower win rate. In particular:

Also - I just looked at the bottom 10 lowest win rate champs for plat.  YASUO IS ON THAT LIST (with urgot/azir).  To be fair, though, only at the plat level.

Means that there's a lot of people who think that Yasuo is their ticket to (diamond) and are not playing him to his full potential, while playing against people who are familiar with facing Yasuo. It's also important to recognize that a -50 HP nerf isn't actually that huge. He lost 200 HP at level 18 on his shield a few patches ago, and he lost his shield-on-dash around the same time, which made his ridiculous level 2 much more reasonable.

It'll hurt his top laning a bit, since bruisers can go toe-to-toe with him earlier. It also lets you bring Ignite to the lane a little easier.

My personal opinion on Yasuo was that they really made a big design mistake with him and allowing teammates to contribute to his R. It makes him very binary in lower Elo levels (he is way way easier to play if you have 2-3 knockups on the team). It's a problem in the Pick-Ban stages of the pro scene since he can be nearly impossible to deal with if champs that he synergizes with are also really strong (Lulu top being one of the biggest offenders a few months ago). 

It also would have made it so that a lot of these other nerfs could have been toned down. At this point, the design team has decided to keep the interactions with R, so i guess additional nerfs make sense. i just wish that they had removed the interaction a long time ago and perhaps he would have become a much less polar champion at all levels.

i think that it is important to the game to try to keep higher skill champions in the game that have the ability to carry teammates. Now, i don't mean like 1v5 carry alone to victory. But some champs should be be a lot scarier when 3-0 than others. Harder champs shouldn't necessarily be straight out more powerful, even when played to perfection, but perhaps they are more flexible or able to deal with a wider variety of situations

It's also important to note that like.... 8 months ago when Leblanc was all the rage, she was like the 2nd lowest win rate in the game, right above Urgot. She was still banned after the nerfs to her W and such. It wasn't until her silence was removed that she finally stopped getting banned. Despite being way weaker than she used to be, she's actually at 45% right now - that supports Karl's statement. As pick rate drops, win rates climb. That's because you get less and less people playing the champ "just because".

The theory nowadays seems to be to avoid tanking and initiating with bad items, and instead use evasion and the extreme mobility creep as pseudo tanking (along with a few examples of AP bruisers who can build decent items like RoA, Zhonyas, etc), and just go straight DPS.

i'm disappointed you forgot Rumble. Rumble is the posterboy AP bruiser, espiecially since he also brings in that initiation. Another reason Yasuo is so powerful in pro scene is because Yasuo is able to prevent some of those ranged initiatoins (Nami, Rumble) while also being that "fighter" archetype that is "tanky" thru mobility rather than raw stats.

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October 7, 2014 5:53:44 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting pacov,

Along those same lines, its a little crazy to assume that reduced ban rate = a big win rate spike, right? 

I doubt that you can meaningfully correlate changes in one parameter with changes in the other on a consistent basis.  The overall play rate, ban rate, and win rates on a given champion are insanely complicated (overall power of the champion, pool of players playing the champion, overall power of items the champion uses, meta, recent major tournaments the champion might have been featured in, power level of champions that counter the champion, etc).  Predicting the relationship between those variables based on some model that you pull out of nowhere is just not going to work well.

Quoting pacov,

Here's the thing - we look at the stats and observe trends.  I find this sort of analysis beneficial if you catch on to trends before they are widely known (typically best to observe after patches having read the patch notes in detail).  The trend on yasuo is low win rate, high ban rate.

OK, first of all, a trend is a statement of what happens as a function of time.  So the fact that Yasuo has a low win rate/high ban rate is not a trend since it is only a snapshot at one point in time.

Now, I say this because I actually agree that genuine trends are more useful since they might be good at predicting the future.  If you see that Zilean has increased in playrate from "not at all" to "sometimes", you might reasonably predict that his playrate will continue to increase.  Thus, you might prepare to play against him, including looking at his counter.  This might net you wins as you encounter people playing Zilean for the first time (and not understanding the champion), while you have cleverly prepared a counter.

(I generally think its a better idea to understand how to counter a trend rather than try and jump on it - trying to jump on a trend is hard since you have to get around other people picking a champ or banning it)

Predicting the future in this way can be useful if done appropriately.  The problem is that there are sudden discontinuities in things like champion playrates (and winrates) as events like patches and major tournaments happen.

Quoting pacov,

also - I wouldn't totally discount the buff rammus received re: his win rate stats.  I see an increase in wr on like rammus, I think what's changed with him, what's the current trend in meta, if there was a change, is his win rate related to him getting more play as people are trying out that change now, etc. 

More people trying him out should reduce his winrate if he started out with a high winrate and low playrate.  I think you are probably right that his buffs pushed him up a bit combined with the meta continuing to shift toward squishiness (helped with the pros playing very squishy lineups).

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October 7, 2014 6:31:05 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Krazikarl,

Well, one thing that has to be realized is that running all AD teams isn't a substantial disadvantage right now.

I'd agree to an extent, but would argue that it does matter a little and that would vary at different levels of play.

Bronzies telling their team to build Thornmail to counter the fed Yi?  Yeah... good luck with that.

But I'm not convinced that building armor doesn't help against an all AD team anywhere near my skill level.  Yeah, the all AD team of Challenger players who have scary amounts of offensive items and the mechanics/positioning to maximize their DPS?  Stacking armor don't auto counter that.  But from Silver to Plat?  You don't need to perfect positioning/kiting/orbwalking/canceling autos with Tiamat/etc to make your Frozen Heart work to it's maximum potential.

Been watching a little Worlds here and there.  Seemed like they like to mix up the AP/AD, but that might just be because like you said, all the good bruisers are AP and you are likely to have a super carry Marksman like Tris/Twitch or a DPS jungle like Kha, so maybe balancing damage types isn't gonna ever be a huge issue with the competitive meta.

Also, did you see the game with the "Irelia Supertank?"  Damn Koreans stole my build: TF->Tanky tanky tanky.

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October 7, 2014 6:38:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

TBH, Thornmail is actually really really good right now - far stronger than its been historically. Not against true-damage feral-flare Yi but...

Thornmail is really good against non-BT ADCs. ADCs that like to build BotRK (Kog, Twitch, Vayne) like to usually really stack up the attack speed (Phantom Dancers, Ghostblade, Stattik Shiv), and Last Whisper is often a negative DPS item on them against typical teamcomps. Unfortunately, you have to go LW against a TM or else you end up killing yourself with all the damage...

That is even more true against Trinity/IE builds since they really only have a dorans for a long, long time. Even more "castery" ADCs like Ez, Lucian or Corki still need to autoattack to access half their damage. 

In fact, if you look at when pros do actually build Thornmail and the types of games where Thornmail is really successful, the answer is when you're a toplaner against an AD laner and you build up a large early advantage. Thornmail is much cheaper than a Randuins, and it's extremely successful against "behind" laners who are AD and thus typically are very dependent on autoattacks.

Not to mention, Armor Pen is really not very popular on most top laners, except for Brutalizer, which doesn't really offer much. Thornmail does make you quite a bit more vulnerable to AP, however, so you probably don't want to do it against a fed Annie Support + Elise jungle, but it's still not a joke of an item anymore...

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October 7, 2014 7:39:42 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

TBH, Thornmail is actually really really good right now - far stronger than its been historically. Not against true-damage feral-flare Yi but...

That's actually really good to know.

But please don't tell that to the Bronzies.  They believe that if a Yi gets slightly ahead... even if we have a ton of tools to deal with him including my much more fed Swain or Irelia... then everyone on the team, from the Support to the AP Mid, must immediately start building a Thormail so that Yi will die whenever he right clicks on an opponent.

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October 7, 2014 7:41:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

catching up on news - I read this stuff later:

pbe jungle changes for season 5 - http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/5AN5oKRM-preseason-2015-experimental-jungle-changes

 

 

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October 7, 2014 11:46:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

read this stuff - night all!

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/help-support/WH8doH76-na-servers-and-the-future

 smeh - copy paste

 

Hey, everyone. I'm on the NA projects team and we want to clarify plans around NA’s future as a server. Currently, service is not equal across the region, and that sucks. Even worse, it feels like we’ve talked about plans to improve things for a long, long time with no real visible action taken. We currently have multiple projects aimed at addressing ping issues in NA, so read on.

Yesterday, we were so excited to start talking about the new server infrastructure build, but we chose our words poorly. While technically we’re rebuilding the servers from the ground up somewhere new, the word “migration” naturally sounds like we’re moving to a central location, which we’re not ready for just yet.

We want to apologize for the confusion, and do more than say “we’re working on it,” because you’ve all heard that before. Allow us to put the infrastructure rebuild into context and map out the three-phase plan we’ve outlined for NA. We can’t promise to dish details about everything because we’re still finalizing some projects, but we can give you a better idea of what we’re doing behind the curtain.

Right now, there are three main issues with the NA server environment:

  1. Out-of-date infrastructure (poor stability)

  2. ISP traffic routing (network optimization)

  3. Server location (ping distribution)

Ideally, we’d tackle all three at the same time, but these are big changes and we want to make sure we’re getting each one right before moving on to the next step. Measure twice, cut once.

  1. The Infrastructure team is leading the charge on building a new server infrastructure from the ground up to make sure the game experience is stable and more secure. Instability causes cascading problems like fluctuating ping, downtime, and poor service, so we want to address this challenge first. Expect a more stable connection on these shiny, sturdy servers this November.

  2. The Internet Optimization team is actively working with ISPs across the US and Canada to build what’s known as an internet backbone for League players. This backbone will decrease variances and chokepoints in connections across the region, resulting in a better optimized connection to those shiny new servers. Expect these internet superhighways to roll out in early 2015.

  3. Finally, our team is dedicated to scoping out what will ultimately be the new location that the NA servers and optimized backbone connections will call home. We aren’t ready to share where this new home will be or when this project team will be ready for prime-time, but we want you to know that the ultimate goal is providing a comparable, stable ping no matter which coast you’re playing from. As these first two projects finalize, we’ll know more and will be ready to share additional details.

Stay tuned for more info from us in the future!

  • RiotPDB, NA Projects Team
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October 8, 2014 6:27:34 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

reading now - fyi - lunar eclipse underway atm.  6:25AM EST- 7:15AM EST or so. 

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October 8, 2014 7:27:06 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

Apparently Kha'zix is actually a very balanced champion and not at all Freelo.

Provided that there is a strong correlation between the best players in the world and how a champ does in solo queue/ranked 5's... but that's not the case based on win rate. Good point that kha's not doing as well on the world scene currently (also a few patches ago), but in ranked 5's he's incredibly strong 57-58% win rate, but he drops off some in solo queue 53-54% win rate. 

Also, I don't really buy into this freelo stuff - I just think that the statistics can and often do point out champs that have an edge in the current meta (provided there is a good sample size. The stats alone do nothing for my individual skill level - BUT, those stats often tell me what champ I should spend some time developing - IF I get on the bandwagon before those champs have high ban rates. 

  • high ban rate means the general public believes a champ is strong (regardless of reality)
  • high pick rate also means the general public believes a champ is strong
  • high win rate with a high pick rate generally means a champ is strong (in whatever you pulled the stats from - eg high pick/win in solo queue plat, high pick/win in ranked 5's plat)

Things get much more muddy with a small sample size (karl's rammus example). 

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

My personal opinion on Yasuo was that they really made a big design mistake with him and allowing teammates to contribute to his R. It makes him very binary in lower Elo levels (he is way way easier to play if you have 2-3 knockups on the team).

That's a really good point.  I think we'd see a drop off in power/win rate if that change was made.  I kind of think it would be smart as well, but I don't think riot is going that way. 

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

i just wish that they had removed the interaction a long time ago and perhaps he would have become a much less polar champion at all levels.

Makes sense and I agree.

Quoting Krazikarl,

(I generally think its a better idea to understand how to counter a trend rather than try and jump on it - trying to jump on a trend is hard since you have to get around other people picking a champ or banning it)

Agree on 1 point - I think its very important to learn how to counter those trends (banning or playing champion counters).  But I still see the value in trying to use the trend to your advantage provided you pick up on it prior to someone moving towards must ban status.  Also, trends happen over time, but a trend can develop very quickly and need not be examined over a long duration (google trends shows you trend of today for instance).  What I'm generally talking about here is picking up on an individual champions strength, often by noting win rate spikes, and then figuring out why.  I personally find value in that and have benefited in the past.  There's a big difference seeing a champs strength before everyone else and deciding I want to main Kassadin back when he was banned every game. It's still worth figuring out why Kass was getting all the bans, ofc. 

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,

TBH, Thornmail is actually really really good right now

I'm seeing that as well.  Seems like a very good pick up in many more situations now.

 

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October 8, 2014 8:17:43 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Also, I like/dislike this series at LoLking.  They do weekly analysis on league trends.  I like the data - I don't like that they break down the data for everyone.  An example of what they do - they note pick rate increases for the week.  Then they tie that stat to things like  -well, that champ got played at worlds.  Give an episode a watch

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October 8, 2014 8:45:48 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Oh - and I'll jibber on about games last night a little.  played 1 ranked game.  Got 1 ranked win - think I got like 26 LP so PROBABLY 4 more wins and I'll hit another promo series (riot does enjoy putting people to 98/99 lp to be a pisser).  I had a so-so showing as lucian.  Duo'd up with a really nice guy I played with before in ranekd - barklous.  He hits me up pretty frequently for games but I'm usually involved in something else when he asks.  He's actually a super nice.  Can't say I was super thrilled with him going blitz into a leona/trist lane with me as lucy, but he had many really good grabs.  We went way too ham for some kills early/mid, but the enemy team couldn't really make us pay for it all said and done... but it was shite play on my part. 

All other games were normal/draft.  My other pal (trick) that I've been duoing ranked with apparently went full on tilt when paired up with a silver MadCast support.  To be somewhat fair, he was up against a master tier draven in the previous game and got worked a bit.  Then he got wrecked the next game... also by a draven... but apparently raged a ton at his support and had some pretty BM from what I heard.  Been there, done that, but I a bit bummed that he went all ragey the 1st or 2nd time playing with some MC folks.  He seems pretty difficult to get to untilt once he gets going.  Anyway, might have to limit my games w/ him to ranked, but we'll see.

My fav moment of the night was actually in the game where trick tilted.  I'm playing ryze top lane.  The enemy team's riven screwed up pretty damn badly and put me into a position where I could forever freeze the lane.  So, the riven disappears and I freeze the lane for a good 4-5 minutes. I notice that bot lane is caving pretty bad, so I decide to unfreeze my lane and push to tower so I can roam, get tower or tp.  Now, riven has been missing from the map for 4-5 minutes since she screwed up and put me into frozen lane mode.

It turns out riven had been sitting in the top bush near where I had the lane frozen for the ENTIRE 4-5 minutes while I farmed.  She, being close to the creep wave, missed all the cs, but got all the XP. So, she pops out having hit level 6 and having ignite and wipes me.  I found that particularly funny anyway.  Willing to stay in a bush that long just waiting for me to push.  I'd have kept the wave frozen MUCH longer if bot lane hadn't been doing so poorly, but I felt like I had to move out so I could help ease the pressure. 

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October 8, 2014 12:50:08 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Ripped from reddit:  4.18 patch coming out tomorrow oct 9.  Includes this stuffs

 

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October 8, 2014 1:44:18 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting pacov,

What I'm generally talking about here is picking up on an individual champions strength, often by noting win rate spikes, and then figuring out why.  I personally find value in that and have benefited in the past. 

Yeah, and I've also watched you lose yourself a lot of games using this strategy.  I think if you add up the negatives along with the positives, the negatives win.

Early in the season, you were picking a lot of...creative...junglers in the hope of jumping on a secret OP jungler/strategy.  It did not go well even at Silver and you didn't even maintain .500 for a long time.  But, as soon as you went to obvious picks that everybody knew were strong (like Lucian), your winrate shot right up.  Honestly, watching those games I thought that you would have had a good chance to win if you had just taken Wukong, but basically really gimped yourself by taking weak junglers that you hadn't practiced much.

This is the drawback to your strategy - you have to play champions quickly, so you can't practice them that much.  And you have to hope they are OP before everybody has really confirmed they are that strong, so they might not actually be OP.  So a lot of the time you end up playing a not really OP champion that you haven't practiced much.  That has a good chance of losing you the game.

So yeah, you might be able to outsmart everybody and get a few days of an OP champion that you haven't practiced that much.  But the fact that you haven't practiced the champ much cancels out the OPness, so its somewhat of a wash, and its a temporary advantage since the nerfs/bans are coming.  But you risk playing a mediocre champion badly.  I don't like that deal, so its a questionable strategy to me.  And having seen a fair number of your games from an unbiased perspective, I'd question that this strategy has helped out your ranked games in any way.  You do best in ranked when you make obvious picks in bot lane and smash people, not creative picks elsewhere.

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October 8, 2014 2:41:50 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

I think what you are referring to is not what I'm talking about though.  Let me site 2 things that I think you might be talking about - shaco and let's go with feral flare udyr.  Nothing re: playing those champs was influenced by win/ban/pick rates. 

Shaco I wanted to learn because I enjoyed it and he has god tier ganks.  The weakness being putting the team into a position where you either need to end as quickly as possible or be able to split push while other group.  All said and done, it was fun and I learned a ton.

The udyr feral flare thing actually WAS pretty damn op, but you needed a team that didn't get destroyed in the lane phase.  Also, not win/ban/pick rate related, but more about a style of play I wanted to try out and see how it did.  And like with shaco, I eventually reached my conclusions as to the weaknesses and strengths. 

Anyway, just saying that things like feral flare udyr or even trynd jungle were about trying out gimmicks and seeing where it went.  Truth be told, I don't think I played too much of that stuff in ranked. 

At any rate, I think the only time I was really able to pull off picking up on a trend before it took full effect was with nunu. 

 

The practice that I think is worth repeating is looking at the high win rate, pick rates, and ban rates. Then figuring out exactly why that is the case. 

 

 

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