pacov's League of Legends general discussion thread - strategies, etc

By on November 29, 2011 1:07:18 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

pacov

Join Date 02/2008
+183

I've locked/archived this thread/blog and have started a new discussion over here:  http://forums.demigodthegame.com/454943/

Please join me if you like.

 

 

 


 

 

Am I streaming


 

 

Well, I started a thread  back in August (http://forums.joeuser.com/411269/) that's seen a lot of activity and actually had quite a few good bits of information for new and old players alike.  I figure it's time to start a new thread and perhaps keep the OP up-to-date with useful information, etc.  Feel free to use this post for any LoL discussion, etc.

Super fast background:  I played a lot of Demigod as pacov/cheesuscrust.  Back in August 2011 or so, I started getting heavily involved in LoL and folks have been kind enough to chime in with tips and links to various sites that have been quite useful to me.  In addition, I've been able to keep up with folks that I've played Demigod with in the past and meet some new folks that play LoL and frequent these message boards. 

Here's some of the things I've learned in the previous thread:

 New Player tips

  • Play the tutorial.
  • Consider picking up the starter bundle.  It's 530 RP (that's about $4).  You get 8 champs unlocked, a 4 win IP boost and a 10 win XP boost.  It's a pretty good deal (used it recently on an alt account).  You can find it in the game store under bundles.
  • Riot gives you 400 RP as soon as you hit level 5.  It's enough to buy some skins, a boost, or a cheap character. 
  • Learn to last hit!  Last hitting is simply landing the last hit on creeps.  If you last hit, you get gold for that kill.  The number of creeps you have killed is tracked in a value called CS.  You can see this number in the top right hand corner of the ui or by pressing tab.  Here's a really simple tutorial re: last hitting if you are brand new - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LheiRB76x5g
  • Read some guides on any character you want to try out.  The recommended builds (what you see when you go to a shop) are not optimal.  The guides include item suggestions and skill orders.  These are very useful in learning decent ways to build characters
  • Use the rune combiner to get level 3 runes prior to level 20 if you like.  You will need 375 IP.  Buy any tier 1 rune that costs 15 IP.  You need to purchase 25 of these.  Click on your rune page.  In the bottom right hand corner there is a button called the Rune Combiner.  If you place 5 runes in there, you can get a random rune that is 1 tier higher (eg if you have 5 tier 1 runes, you will get 1 random tier 2 rune.  Anyway, the math works out such that you spend 375 IP ( buy 25 tier 1 15 IP runes) and you get 1 completely random tier 3 rune.  Some of the quintessences are 2k IP, so if you luck out and get one of those, you just won the lottery.  You can always keep the random tier 2 rune if you end up with something good and don't want to trade it out yet.
  • Consider setting aside IP for tier 3 runes (available at level 20 and above).  You can't purchase them with real money - only IP.  Keep that in mind.

Great site I visit every day for LoL related news - http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends

pacov's misc info

Here's a guide I made

pacov's Guide to Improving at League of Legends and Moving Up in Elo

k - so I'm just going to put down some of my thoughts.  I'm not amazing at this game, but I do certain things that improve my odds of winning in ranked and so far its panning out just fine (bronze 5 to gold 5 in about a month or so).  We all have varied skill levels, so some of this might be useful and some not.  Caveat complete.

Prerequisite- you need to know how to play every single role.  You don't have to be a god at every single role (more power to you if you are - I'm certainly not).  You need to be able to play at a serviceable level in every single role and excel at least at 1 role (preferably 2).  In my case, I'm good at support and adc.  I'm not great, but have serviceable mids and jungles and so so tops.  Knowing what you are good at and bad at is very important.  If you don't know, I can probably tell you - but you really should know...  Anyway, you need to have enough champs to make solid picks in any role and you need to be able to cover any role if it comes down to it.  I'll talk about how to get better at specific roles in a bit.

Champ select advice - Don't be the "fill" guy unless you really feel like you are awesome in all roles.  Call your preferred role immediately when you hit the lobby.  Say "adc pref."  Do this as soon as you hit the lobby.  Some people believe that if you call a role you magically get it.  This is stupid, but if you call something out, folks will often accomodate your request.  If you are feeling wishy washy for whatever reason, call out multiple roles in order of what you want to play - "adc/mid pref."  In my experience, you generally do not want to call support.  It's a very important role, but you want to be in a position to carry every single game if possible.  If you aren't calling out a role, you are hoping that other players can carry you.  If you are hoping that folks will carry you, you don't deserve to win.  You need to know your best roles and you absolutely should request them.

Solo or duo in ranked? - Well, my 1st thought here is that you should solo.  If you solo, you have to rely on yourself.  IMO - its a much bigger test of skill to play solo and win than to duo.  Do you want someone to carry you or do you really want to know that you are actually good?  That said, provided you have the right duo partner, you can increase your odds of winning quite a bit.  The simple math is that instead of having 4 teammates as unknown quantities, you only have 3.  If you have a good duo teammate, you know what you can expect.  When you duo, you get the most bang for your buck by having complimentary roles.  Support/adc is good; jungle/mid also works.  Even if you don't have direct symmetry in roles, if you are an amazing mid and I'm an amazing adc, our odds go up quite a bit if we both get those roles.  Our odds go way down if we can't get those roles and are forced to play out of positions that we are weaker.  For example, Bryff is a good mid.  If he duo's up with me, the only way he will get to play that role is for me to call mid, take it myself, and then put myself into a position like support where I can't carry out of (I'm always 1st pick, Bryff is always last pick when we duo)... that and I have to show the mid I'm picking at the start which means Bryff gets hard countered.  In short, we can expect that we will be a disadvantage when duo queuing.  Now, if Bryff queued up with someone at a lower elo than himself that was solid, he'd likely be 1st pick and be able to get mid and have a better chance of carrying the game.  Anyway, you need to keep in mind where you end up in pick order when duoing if you aren't looking to go adc/support.  If you want that, you can usually get it. 

How do you get better in roles that you are not good at? - Well, here's what I do.  And this is really what I do on a regular basis.  I think about what I'm good at and what I'm not good at.  For instance, I realized that I don't play any hyper carry ads.  So, I read up on hyper carries like vayne and kog maw.  I look for guides on how to build them (most adcs are the same btw ), I look for vids on how people play them (eg how do I all in with a specific champ - is there a combo - when do I all in - what's the best way for me to burst - how should I behave in lane with this champ).  Then, I fire up a custom game and try out the mechanics of whatever champ vs AI.  Usually I learn a few tricks during that custom on how to position myself, etc.  Then, I'm off to normal games where I'll request the role or character I'm trying out.  Now, people still report your for being awful in normals, but it really is where you need to try out characters to see if you are any good or not as the bots are useless for proving your skill level to yourself.  So, fire up that normal and ask to play a role (again - after you've tried out the champ against bots).  If you don't know anyone you are with and you are quite awful, I suggest muting everyone at the start of the game.  Then, do your best.  Continue with this until you feel like you have a serviceable skill level in whatever role.  And keep in mind what you need to work on.  For me, I noticed I didn't really have alot of mids for ranked, so I started practicing some with gragas against and karth.  That way, I'll be able to get the job done if I need to play mid.  The next thing I need to do is put more time into being better top lane. Again, because while I prefer adc/support, I might need to play top for the team.  So, best to be ready for it.  Put your time in and practice roles. 

One last thought - there are certain things you can generally expect in ranked.  1 - if you are 1st pick, you generally can call whatever you want.  Common knowledge, I'm sure - but I'll add - CALL WHATEVER YOU WANT.  2 - if you duo queue, you generally can lock down both adc and support.  It works best if your adc is 1st pick, ofc.  I've bumped into like 10 random dedicated supports in all of my games of LoL.  People generally aren't going to call support. So, if you are 1st pick and duo'd, just call adc and then your duo partner can almost always get support.

 

Lol King profiles for ranked tracking

I'm not going to update this regularly, so just consider it a snapshot (I'll add a date when I update them).  Anyway, I enjoy seeing folks progress through ranked and keeping tabs on that sort of thing from time to time. 

Snapshot updated 05/28/2014

 Character guides

Mid Ziggs by cow - http://www.lolking.net/guides/7906
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June 26, 2013 9:27:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have a nice PSU, but the computer wasn't even on, so I doubt it would be helping that much.  I really don't have power issues.  Think it was just a surge.

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June 26, 2013 11:08:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Shit.

 

UPS, not PSU.  Sleep deprivation. 

 

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June 27, 2013 12:44:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

well - pacov has officially earned the title of team shot caller.  About time you jerks.  I had 2 bronze players call out karl for his bad plays tonight and I made a brilliant call for a kill lane bot along with strats last game.  Really encouraging to have a bunch of my regular pals on my side here.  Thanks again.  Will do my best to continue to call excellent strategies that karl probably disagrees with. 

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June 27, 2013 12:44:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Get charter.  It's smarter.

[Not] On that note I guess I did some crappy adc seeing as how the 3 games I did we lost.

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June 27, 2013 12:50:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Bryff,
On that note I guess I did some crappy adc seeing as how the 3 games I did we lost.

karl was shot caller on any game you underperformed on.  No worries. 

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June 27, 2013 1:12:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"do whatever you want, bryff"

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June 27, 2013 1:25:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

huehuehue hoyhoyhoy

also... (I'm general zod and karl is superman assuming the proper position - I offer him my hand like a southern lady).

 

"the difference between you and platinum is pink wards."

 

Also - this is what starts playing when I walk into the room.  Also, everything starts happening in slow mo. 

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June 27, 2013 5:08:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Baron steal, twice.  With Nami.  Game goes from dead even to a wash, end score 40-24...

 

I will never be this lucky again.

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June 27, 2013 9:12:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Spirit udyr looks really, really good imo http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/24920-updated-ultimate-skin-spirit-guard-udyr-is-here

 

and I just tried out the skin on pbe. LOOOVVEEE it.  It's exceptionally well done.  I daresay one of the best looking skins in the game hands down.  I'll be picking this up when its released. 

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June 27, 2013 2:32:55 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Wait... what the hell has been going on while I've been at work?

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June 27, 2013 2:40:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

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June 27, 2013 2:49:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Pacov forgot to take his medicine last night is all.

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June 27, 2013 2:55:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

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June 28, 2013 9:14:12 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

huehuehue

Quoting kimoberoi,
is better to stay @lane and get ready for gangbang.

mmm'k.  Looks a bit spammy, but made me laugh, so no exciting delete for now. 

Anywho, onto other stuff.  I've decided to change up my xin build to a more logical start.  I'm still running 0/9/21 atm and will likely stick with that, but I'm scrapping the boots/pots start.  risk is not worth the reward.  For those that didn't follow much with my xin bit, the strategy was to go boots/5 pots at start.  Get a hard leash at blue/red, beeline to our teams blue/red and then gank top repeatedly.  The strategy doesn't require a ton to work well.  You just need a top laner that can manage to have some hp after being in lane for a minute (about how long it takes to get to top for xin after clearing the 1st blue/red).  AND, you need an actual solid, intelligent leash on the 1st blue/red (which is surprisingly difficult for some).  AND you need to not get counter jungled.  Anyway, if that comes together (it often does), then you just run top and you are pretty well guaranteed to get a flash out of the enemy top laner.  Then you just camp a bit and are extremely likely to secure 1-2 kills for you or your top laner. 

The downside - if anything doesn't work that way, you are stuck with boots in your jungle - which means the jungle can basically kick your ass.  This also means that you are extremely vulernable to counter jungling and you can't gank without extreme risk as your hp would be low from the jungle damage.  You literally end up having to back super early and pick up a machete to keep going.  Anyway, I've decide to go with the more standard machete/5 pots build.  This compensates easily for weak leashes and positions you to more easily get back on your feet if you are counter jungled.  The ganks top are SLIGHTLY less effective, but still reasonably strong. 

Other stuff - I've been semi consistently been rushing zephyr. I still think this is a really good item when you are already going deep in the support tree for extra ms/as.  The added move speed makes xin extremely good at picking off someone and starting an engage if anyone is slightly out of position.  The attack speed works great with his q (I think its his q, maybe his w).  The q gets knock ups faster for added cc - and then he also gets a cool down reduction per hit on other abilities - so AS is essentially really good cdr.  I think I might drop the early zephyr and go for a botrk.  My build overall build is pretty wonky.  I typically get that zephyr early and then start building team items/tank items. 

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June 28, 2013 3:41:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If you are talking about jungler builds, can you please develop some team builds, instead of a bunch of variations of glass cannon builds that generate good kill numbers for you, but hurt your team?

If you are going to jungle, you must be able to tank.  I'm not talking about going in and killing one person before instantly dying.  I'm talking about actual front line pressure where you are able to initiate, survive for a while if targeted, and provide team utility.  So far, you  have been refusing to do this even when your team has no other front line presence, and it REALLY hurts your team to have 0 front line.

You have to be able to play most of these junglers without building any substantial damage items.  Or, at most, one hybrid damage/defense item (lets say FM or maybe BC).  It is NOT generally OK to rush BotRK/Lizard SS item/Zephyr when you have to provide substantial front line presence.  With the gold as it is in jungle, this means you won't have many tanky items til 20-25 minutes, at which point you are already really hurting your team by being a glass cannon.

I mean, we were playing the other night where you were Xin and top was Jayce, so we had no other front line champs.  We said to you ahead of time that you have to go straight tank.  But I looked at your build at 21 minutes and you had 0 money in defense other than your boots.  You had rushed damage again with the plan of eventually going defensive, but then we had a LONG time where we had to try and teamfight while 5 glass cannons and no initiator that can live for more than a second.

I get that building damage leads to better stats.  But tanking and playing jungle is about the TEAM, not your stat line.  You need to judge success of builds based on how well your team functions, not on how good your personal stat line is.

Also, note that this means you should place more value in team defensive items, not the ones that only help you.  Warmogs, no (with a few exceptions like Mundo).  Randuins/FH yes.

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June 28, 2013 4:12:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Krazikarl,
If you are going to jungle, you must be able to tank.

Well, I agree some here, but not completely.  For instance, building things on certain junglers that enable you to do more dmg or gank more effectively (not tank items) have a place.  I most instances, I do end up with a tanky build come end of game or at least have some tanky stuff.  

And then there's a "what is your composition" sort of thing.  I personally don't think that if you have a mostly pure tank/cc machine like shen on your team that the jungler should also build pure tank.  I've been playing alot of xin lately - and while can be a very effective tank if built that way, I graviate towards dmg early and then migrate towards tank later.  It's not perfect and I'm still thinking through alternative builds etc. 

Quoting Krazikarl,
So far, you have been refusing to do this even when your team has no other front line presence, and it REALLY hurts your team to have 0 front line.

bah - true that I refuse to do it some though.

Quoting Krazikarl,
It is NOT generally OK to rush BotRK/Lizard SS item/Zephyr when you have to provide substantial front line presence.

probably fair statements. 

Quoting Krazikarl,
I get that building damage leads to better stats. But tanking and playing jungle is about the TEAM, not your stat line. You need to judge success of builds based on how well your team functions, not on how good your personal stat line is.

Rubbish.  Well, your implication is anyway.  I'm building characters like xin the way I do because I find that much more effective for ganks and securing kills.  It's not perfect, but its not about padding personal stats.  fuck that.  What we differ on and what I'm trying to determine is when is the best time in a given game to build X item.  With characters like nunu/naut (my best junglers imo), I have relatively static builds that prioritize assisting in ganks, etc, but immediately go towards a tanking approach.  Other junglers I'm still working on and trying to come up with a decent balance.  I could easily build xin the same way, but imo he'd then become an inferior pick in the jungle. 

Here's a decent article from stonewall about various types of builds on diff types of junglers - http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-lists/jungle-tier-list/24312-jungle-tier-list-lissandra-era.

The short version is that I very much contest the idea that there are only tank junglers.  tis a silly concept and narrow minded imo. 

 

 

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June 28, 2013 5:09:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,
Rubbish. Well, your implication is anyway.

I'm saying that you judge the performance of players and builds by their kill/death ratio (and maybe sometimes their k/d/a ratio).  I think that we all know that after many of your games, you say "well, lets see how everybody did" and then read off their scores.  You also justify your own performances repeatedly by citing kill/death ratios.

I'm also saying that this is a bad way of evaluating performance in many positions.  It is modestly meaningful for ADC/mid, but for tanks especially, it doesn't mean much at all.  Your job as a tank is to do something that is usually not rewarded statistically.

I'm not saying saying that you build champions to pad your personal stats.  I am saying that you evaluate players/builds based on stats when you shouldn't.

Quoting pacov,
I most instances, I do end up with a tanky build come end of game or at least have some tanky stuff.

And I'm saying that you usually get tanky about 20 minutes too late.  If you are the only front line member, you need to be fairly tanky by the time that any teamfighting starts.  So 15-20 minutes in.  That means you had better not be rushing BotRK.

Yes, if you have somebody like a Shen, you can delay a bit on the tanking items.

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June 28, 2013 6:04:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree that Spirit Guard Udyr is good, but it isn't 3250 good lol.

Also @pacov
Karl didn't say there were only tank junglers. He said if you are the only viable frontline on your team you should probably go straight tanky. 

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June 28, 2013 7:18:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

well.. he also said this: 

Quoting Krazikarl,
If you are going to jungle, you must be able to tank.

If we don't have a tanky top, I should build tanky.  should...

Quoting Krazikarl,
I think that we all know that after many of your games, you say "well, lets see how everybody did" and then read off their scores.

HUMBUG (I'm working on words other than smeh, meh, and rubbish - not going so hot atm).  I dare not analyze anything - just be happy if we won a game and move along... I see.

Quoting Krazikarl,
Your job as a tank is to do something that is usually not rewarded statistically.

I can't relate in the slightest as I've played support a ton. 

Quoting Krazikarl,
I'm not saying saying that you build champions to pad your personal stats. I am saying that you evaluate players/builds based on stats when you shouldn't.

You can evaluate most if not all roles based on stats to some degree.  If I'm support and I'm 2/10/13, I probably did some awful things.  If I'm an adc or mid with 100 CS at 20 minutes, I probably did something terrible.  If the enemy adc is 12/2/19 and I'm 5/7/8, I probably did something awful.  If their top outfarmed mine by 80 cs, my top very likely did something awful.  Stats don't tell the whole story obviously for many reasons as well ofc.  Could have had a god awful game as jungler and still got that baron steal that actually won the game.  Doesn't mean stats are meaningless and shouldn't be used to evaluate players, etc.  It's all a factor.  If I see a game where I'm adc and I'm just way down on CS, well... I actually spend some time practicing cs'ing. 

 

Onto the thing I'm trying to figure out for myself. 

Quoting Krazikarl,
And I'm saying that you usually get tanky about 20 minutes too late. If you are the only front line member, you need to be fairly tanky by the time that any teamfighting starts. So 15-20 minutes in. That means you had better not be rushing BotRK.

that's true and I'm going to work on that sort of thing with my non super pimp tank junglers.

 

Oh - bryff hit silver 1 tonight!

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June 28, 2013 9:52:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"Nocturne doesn't build Aegis"

i remember that quote from last week - it was pretty hilarious. 

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Nocturne

 

Anyway, a lot of what Karl is talking about is general jungling stuff (eg, tanky AD top that goes half damage half tank, glass cannon mid/support/adc). You're talking about a lot of edge cases. 

This is also in response to "you can analyze all roles by stats to a certain degree". Again, edge cases. Stats are very rarely indicative of "why" you won or lost. What got that Ez to be 12/2/15 in the first place and what could have been done to prevent it. 

 

Yes, Nocturne benefits a lot form building damage (and, realistically, it isn't a good idea to play him unless you have a tank top). But pure tank nocturne also works fine. Nocturne is a DPS champ.

You can increase your damage by increasing your damage... obviously. But you can also increase your damage by increasing your "S". Xin Zhao is the same way.

Compare that to most typical tanks, they don't really increase damage with damage. They increase damage by increasing S long enough to get more CDs (and amplifying teams damage by tanking and giving them survivablility).

 

HUMBUG (I'm working on words other than smeh, meh, and rubbish - not going so hot atm).  I dare not analyze anything - just be happy if we won a game and move along... I see. 

Quality > Quantity. "A Little Knowledge is a Dangerous Thing". 

It's much better to spend 15 minutes analyzing a game you lost than 5 minutes on 3 consecutive games. 

 

 

/pacov hate-train

Anyway, experimenting with this stuff is hardly bad, esp if the entire team is toying around with new champs (afterall: the best games to lose are the ones where everyone is experimenting and everyone loses lane - no one really to blame). It does help everyone educate everyone around you and these discussions are valuable resources. 

 

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June 29, 2013 12:13:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
i remember that quote from last week - it was pretty hilarious.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Nocturne[/quote]

That's the page where 15 games are shown - 8 of which nocturn does not build aegis, right?  Seems like some of them pros agree with me (most) and some do not (7).  Quite hilarious indeed.  Post another screenshot that makes my point I guess.  Want to take it further - of those 15 games shown, the 7 that took aegis - 4 of them were loses.  So, out of 15 games, 3 games were wins with the jungler taking aegis.  Here's a screen shot of exactly what I saw when I pulled up that link this morning:

Anyway, I'm only talking about nocturn and aegis here.  I tend to think he's a very good example of a jungler that is good with more dmg than tank. 

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
This is also in response to "you can analyze all roles by stats to a certain degree". Again, edge cases. Stats are very rarely indicative of "why" you won or lost. What got that Ez to be 12/2/15 in the first place and what could have been done to prevent it.

You and karl can ignore all stats if you like... they don't tell the whole story (duh) but they do tell some of it. I just find that information valuable and it helps me judge my performance correlated with what actually happened in the game. 

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
/pacov hate-train

choo-choo muthafucka.

Hedgie provided some great analysis for me in our in house game that was quite helpful to me last night, though.  And even managed to explain himself where I didn't become enraged   pacov took farm that would have been better put on bryff at one point.  I try to consider such things more thoughfully in the future as his points were pretty valid.

 

Oh - and I'm sad to say that I actually didn't record on in house game last night.  I had the stream off when we were talking stategy, etc, and then forgot to turn it on.  Bit of a bummer as a it was a pretty decent game imo.  I wish we could go on some sort of honor system where folks agree not to watch the stream that are playing.  I personally think its very interesting/entertaining to hear all the talk that happens pre champ select/champ select.  We talked about various strats and compositions - came up with a backup plan in case x champ was banned at the start - who would be playing were on other team, etc.  Anyway, I personally enjoy hearing stuff like that, but its obviously detrimental if someone listens in on the steam and shares some of that info with the other team. 

I had in my mind to put in a 30 second delay once the game started, but forgot to do any of that... sad panda.

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June 29, 2013 1:34:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Pacov the only reason they did not build aegis in those games was because the support or top did lol. If someone else is better off with aegis on your team then great! If not you are supposed to build it as the jungler

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June 29, 2013 1:51:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You might also infer that all the wins had at least one non boots tank item.  Randuins/sunfire/aegis/locket/thornmail(?)

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June 29, 2013 2:07:15 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Alright, so the original statement was "Nocturne does not build Aegis". i consider that to be in the same vein as:

- Leona does not build Kage's Lucky Pick

- Kog'maw does not build Bloodthirster

- Orianna does not build Rod of Ages

 

These are items that fit within a particular "class" or Role and similar champions do build these items (they aren't just flat-out weak items like Executionar's Calling). 

You can find plenty of games where they DO build those items, but i'd argue that in those situations there is some other circumstance that would cause that to happen (Leona got hella fed, Kog'maw is at 5 items, Orianna is in a hard matchup like Kass). 

The fact that Aegis appears on those champions more than 2/3 times says that it's probably somewhat less restrictive than that. 

In fact, i'd say that "Nocturne does not build BotRK (first/second) unless he's super fed" is a reasonably accurate statement. BotRK is 3200 gold for pure offensive stats. A lot of games will close with the jungler having 8-9k gold.Obviously, when you get it, you'll win a lot. Because you're fed.

It is a super good, awesome item on him. But, BotRK is the "Infinity Edge" of junglers. And, again, Nocturne is optimally played with Shen, who is a tanky person who gives him a huge shield and lets him build more glass cannon. 

 

Also, some of those games had Top Nocturne (Rhux + Kev1n), who "does not build Aegis". Nobounds lost really early (20 min surrender) didn't finish it but he had the components. 1

 

All of this undermines "Nocturne does not build Aegis". What i said wasn't "Nocturne always builds Aegis and always wins". 

 

 

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June 29, 2013 3:43:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Bryff,
You might also infer that all the wins had at least one non boots tank item. Randuins/sunfire/aegis/locket/thornmail(?)

yup - not aegis.  Honestly, I can't think of a game where I play any jungler and don't get some sort of tank item.  We (everyone in this conversation - not singling out bryff here) can argue as much as you like - pretty sure everything is just semantics and I actually believe most everything that's said.  We just pick apart idiotic blanket statements like "if you are a jungler, you have to tank" and "nocturn not using aegis is hilarious" and "don't pay attention to stats or w/e."  All of those statements are clearly so all encompassing that you'd have to be a bit special to take them at face value (or be equally special to actually believe, honestly, anyone of of those statements - hence the exciting pacov says that is silly followed by "what I really meant" posts).  But of course, to be fair, comments like pacov's "I don't get aegis on nocturn" fail at the same point - surely there are scenarios when I would/should pick 1 up.  I really shouldn't be playing nocturn, imo, in any game where I'd need to do that, though. 

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
In fact, i'd say that "Nocturne does not build BotRK (first/second) unless he's super fed" is a reasonably accurate statement. BotRK is 3200 gold for pure offensive stats. A lot of games will close with the jungler having 8-9k gold.Obviously, when you get it, you'll win a lot. Because you're fed.

yeah - junglers like nocturne in particular (even some with xin) have me thinking of what is the best way to build them.  So, I start looking at various guides.  Then I request feedback.  One noct guide in particular suggests rushing botk.  Here's the guide in particular for reference.  http://www.lolking.net/guides/149161

So, I try this out and have mixed results.  I typically crushed early/mid, then started to have problems towards late mid/late.  Way too squishy at that point, but honestly, the botrk rush did help quite a bit for ganks during laning, etc.  I think I actually could still rush the item, but then immediately need to switch into going more tanky.  I sent karl a link to this particular build and he provided similar feedback to that of hedgies.  In the end, I'm still kind of in between rushing botrk but now thinking always immediately start building a tanky item after that.  After some more games, I might alter that further as I get more experience. 

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