[Mod] No Spirit Citadel Rush

By on June 5, 2011 9:07:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

pacov

Join Date 02/2008
+182

What's the point of the mod?

The purpose of this mod is to remove an oaks ability to use a "spirit rush" to kill a citadel without nerfing a minion oak in any other way (eg all other structures, creeps, and demigods still take the same level of dmg as normal).  A spirit rush is essentially a somewhat low level oak (lv 6-8) sending spirits at the inner arrow towers on cataract and then spamming spirits at the citadel.  Generally speaking, a spirit rush can only be countered in part - and only if the dg(s) defending possess some sort of aoe.  This mod is generally unnecessary as the majority of players know how to perform a citadel rush do not do so, but with the mod enabled, it is completely impossible to do so.

Why make a mod?

There has been a long standing balance issue with a minion oak (MO) that enabled a MO at a low level to destroy the enemy citadel regardless of their teams' performance, etc (eg in a 3v3, the team with the oak on it could be down 10+ kills and an oak could still take out the citadel solo, from a distance.  We've seen previous nerfs to erebus via the horn of battle to end this behavior, but no nerf was given to oak. 

What are the specifics of the nerf?

The nerf only impacts oak's spirits that are attacking the citadel.  This has 0 impact on other dgs or the oak's spirits on anything OTHER THAN the citadel.  Oak's spirits are still able to attack the citadel, but the possibility of soloing the citadel with spirits has been completely removed.  Any spirit attacking the citadel will do 10% of its current level of damage and will receive 500 damage per hit.  This means that each will be able to hit the citadel 2 times and then will die.  In some circumstances (based on item selection), each spirit will be able to hit the citadel 3 times. 

How do I use the mod?

Download the mod and run the installer.  Then, use the Demigod Mod manager to enable the mod.  Be aware that players will not be able to join your game unless they have the mod installed. 

Where can I download the mod?

http://www.box.net/shared/5g7froi4io


Revision history

v1.01
Corrected the menu display for the in game mod manager

v1.0
- Spirit Damage reduced to 10% output when attacking the citadel
- Spirits take 500 dmg per hit on the citadel

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June 5, 2011 9:07:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

NT

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June 6, 2011 5:24:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Uploaded version 1.01.  This only changes the in game display in the Demigod mod manager.

If you have any issues with the mod or have some feedback, I'm all ears.  Thanks.

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June 6, 2011 11:22:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Still feels kind of weird to be rushing the cit end game and losing minions constantly.

I also recall a minions blitz strategy on leviathan where QoT, LE, Oak, Sedna go full minion and kill the cit around level 7ish, It would be nice to recreate this and see if it is a real IMBA strat and apply this mod to all minions...

I searched for the post on the Leviathan blitz strat but couldn't find it, but I am also thinking of other MOBAs where the cit is protected only until the end game when you deserve to lose, instead of coddling you.

eg: At WR10 the oak minion defense disappears.

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June 7, 2011 12:05:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That's doable, I guess.  Hook WELevelUp in conquest.lua, and at WR10, set a sync value on the enemy citadel that lifts the return damage, and sets its armor back to Structure.

At that point though, you may as well implement some kind of minor game mode change where the citadel always does return damage to everything and/or has damage reduction until certain conditions are met (e.g. towers destroyed, flag control, enemy WR level, or decreasing levels of damage return based on all of the above) so that the citadel can never be randomly taken out by a losing team.

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June 7, 2011 3:13:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

you could have it based on flag count. Eg, if you own ALL the flags, damage-reflect is reduced to 0. If you have ZERO flags, you take full damage-reflect. If you're halfway, you take half-damage. 

The 10% damage modifier makes spirit-rushing barely viable, but you don't want to punish Oak teams that are having "Citadel zerg rush". Eg, one 'winning' team has most of the map + enemy portals, then the 'losing' team only captured the winning team's portal and they are trying to kill the citadel faster than the other. In this context, the damage reflect is a serious drawback and hindering the "winning" team from zerging the citadel. 

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June 7, 2011 6:17:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_pacov,
NT

 

What does NT mean?

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June 7, 2011 8:49:49 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Running_Lukas,
What does NT mean?

NT = No text.  I typically add NT to the 1st reply in all of my threads so that it shows up under MY REPLIES on the forum.

Side note, Lukas - after one of our games yesterday, I'm curious if you understand how killing a dg and then dying yourself in the towers works (eg the strategy behind this).  If you do know, no offense.  If you don't then, here ya go.  There's an important mechanic that can make a huge difference in a game of dg.  Death by towers.  As you know, you get money each time you score a kill.  You also get money each time you assist in getting a kill (less than for getting the kill yourself).  So, keeping that in mind, if I have to die in a combat (or even to avoid a combat), its often best to get yourself killed by a tower.  This denies whoever you are fighting the extra money for a kill (eg they will either get an assist or GET NOTHING if they die and then a tower kills you.  That's why in our 2 games yesterday you saw me chasing folks on your team into multiple towers.  I think on all of my deaths but 1 in both games, I died in the towers after killing someone on your team.  This meant I got all the money for a kill, the person I killed got nothing when I died in the towers, and the person chasing me only got an assist.  The most important thing here is who got the last hit in (eg did a tower kill me or did a dg kill me).  Anyway, my understanding of this mechanic is the only reason I chased often into towers yesterday. 

With regards to using death by tower to escape - if I'm in a situation where I'm trying, say, to cap an enemy portal on the HP side of the map and I suddenly see all 3 on the other team running at me from the HP flag - if I determine I can't escape via tp (or don't have one) and I decide that the odds of me living are slim, I'll likely immediately beeline for the enemies towers near the citadel.  If I manage to get killed by those towers without any dg attacking me, then no one gets any money - this helps my team a lot, of course, as if I stayed and fought, I'd have given the other team money for a kill and money for 2 assists.

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June 7, 2011 4:21:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
you could have it based on flag count. Eg, if you own ALL the flags, damage-reflect is reduced to 0. If you have ZERO flags, you take full damage-reflect. If you're halfway, you take half-damage. 

The 10% damage modifier makes spirit-rushing barely viable, but you don't want to punish Oak teams that are having "Citadel zerg rush". Eg, one 'winning' team has most of the map + enemy portals, then the 'losing' team only captured the winning team's portal and they are trying to kill the citadel faster than the other. In this context, the damage reflect is a serious drawback and hindering the "winning" team from zerging the citadel. 

Yeah, like I said, this would not be difficult to implement, and I think it has some definite gameplay advantages.

Balancing the amount of damage reduction and/or return would be difficult, however, given the nature of the spirit rush problem.  Just balancing against creeps and/or a combined demigod rush isn't too difficult, but because the spirit thing can be done with virtually zero risk, ~50% reduction and ~300 return (which would severely disincentivize a direct premature citadel attack by demigods) isn't enough to stop it from happening entirely.  I guess one could still leave Spirit armor permanently in effect at 50%, so that with 50% DR, spirits only do 25%.  Given how many spirits a late-game Oak can have, and how much damage they're capable of, a 50% damage penalty hardly punishing a 'winning' all-Oak team with 20-30 spirits, who can easily take down the citadel in seconds regardless of upgrades.

Another compatible solution would be to give citadels some substantial base regeneration - around 100-150hp/s, plus whatever they get from structure upgrades (which isn't very much).  This is absolutely nothing against a late-game rush by a winning (or even tied) team who can be capable of doing upwards of 3000-4000dps with creeps from a captured portal, but it would definitely put a dent in the damage a mid-game spirit rush with -50% base damage (nevermind additional, flag-based DR) and damage return.

 

I still think both WR and flag count need to be taken into account when determining the level of citadel protection, so that a few poorly-timed deaths followed by flag captures by the opposing team can't drop all of your cit protection when they're only at WR5 or so.  Additionally, flag consideration should only take into account the number of flags possessed at the beginning of the game - that is, when you have all of your pre-owned flags, your citadel has full protection.  Losing flags in the center shouldn't affect that, as that does not indicate 'winning' or 'losing' until they have been held for a long time (at which point war rank comes into play).  I'm not exactly sure how to formulate protection level from enemy WR + team flag count, but it's certainly doable with some consideration.

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June 7, 2011 8:22:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thx pavov, yeah I'm aware of the tower kill... I do same with ub dying on a sigil turn on ooze in the hope for a suicide when sig expires... I'm more cautios of towers because 99%time I'm playing high towers so don't often end up in a situation like yesterdays games. Yes it's a frustrating tactic (for the enemy who just got killed) an I think more seen on low towers (the chase for the kill is better odds for you b4 u die )

 

lol NT now I get it, I though you mighta been bumping the thread even tho it's new

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July 4, 2011 5:02:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think spirits are too buff all round.I've not encountered may people using them recently because of the negative backlash they get for it. I agree with userbanned... spirits are op.  Its like having 10 giants that can fly. Watched 10k towers taken down in about 5 seconds.

This is in 1v1 mind you... so there's no counter for that. Now I understand why all the boring 1v1 (with no enhanced ai) keep saying no to adding enhanced ai, and using oak.

I'm a noob, and I've not played oak much at all... but looks like i'm gonna have to start doing full minion and spirit build and sit back watching the towers fall... userbanned will kick me for that i'm sure.

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