[Mod] MOBA 1.0

By on May 20, 2011 10:24:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

LORD-ORION

Join Date 04/2009
+51

The mod can be downloaded in Pacov's excellent mod compilation package. It is highly recommended to use the enhanced AI, Uberfix and CrazyTown balance mod also found in this package.

What does it do?

It places more emphasis on the MOBA aspects of the game.

Citadel upgrades are as affordable as gearing out your Demigod. Citadel upgrade units do not yield gold and XP to the enemy, and as such can be fielded immediately.

The design intent is this.

1) Gold and XP upgrades will always be needed, upgraded units and towers are highly desirable because of the power they bring at a low cost.
2) This leaves you with a dilimna, how to manage upgrades on your team? There is going to be gear imbalances.
3) This brings us to the next MOBA aspect. Roles.
3a) The demigod who makes the citadel purchases is going to be inherently weaker, yet must still farm minotaurs and archers for gold and XP. So an undergeared demigod will be exposing himself in the lane.
3b) You are probably going to be quite shocked just how menacing early upgraded creeps can get because you never see them in normal Demigod. You can't really afford to skimp gear on your lane tanks. You can lose a game in 10 minutes now if you are careless and can't control your lanes, so these guys need to stack health and watch mana to control creeps.
3c) Yet who is going to try and kill those nice squishy citadel support demigods? It is pretty amazing just how easily some Demigods can be geared and configured for the "carry" MOBA role to rapidly attack weak demigods of opportunity.
4) You will find you can hit level 15 in most games that go to WR10 because of the higher citadel XP upgrade multipliers, but getting more levels past 15 gets increasingly more difficult because of the lack of XP awards from citadel creeps.
5) Gold production will also follow a more gradual curve instead of a rapid increase at WR10 when citadel creeps are fielded in normal demigod. You'll have more going into the end of a game, but this increased production from gold II and III tapers off slightly compared to the bounty you can get from a creep wave with giants.

So... the more specific change details.

1) Increases the number of Minotaurs from 5 to 8, increases the number of archers from 2 to 4. Adjusts their XP and bounty to make each wave have near the same amount of XP and bounty. (see below).
2) Removes all XP and Bounty for Priests, Angels, Catapultasauri and Giants.
3) Decreases the cost of citadel upgrades significantly.
4) Tie Gold II and III Production values to gold mines. Each gold mine you control gets +1 gold when these upgrades are purchased. (So capturing an enemy gold mine is great).
5) Increases the XP line of cit upgrades to 15% per level (normally 10% per level)

Specific Change List

All War Ranks
-RSoldier01 = 8

WR2 and above
-RArcher01 = 4

Citadel Costs
Structure Health: 500,750,1000,1250
Structure Firepower: 500,750,1000,1250
Gold Income: 1200,1800,2400
Troop Attack: 600,900,1200,1500
Troop Health: 600,900,1200,1500
Priests, Angels etc...: 1200,1800,2400,3000
Death Penalty: 500,750,1000
XP: 600,900,1200,1500
Trebs + FoG: 1250, 750

Citadel Upgrade Changes
CGoldIncome02 = Switch from hero, team to single, economic, Add +1 (so +1 gold per mine instead of +2 to all demigods)
CGoldIncome03 = Switch from hero, team to single, economic, Add +1 (so +1 gold per mine instead of +2 to all demigods)

CTraining01 = 0.15
CTraining02 = 0.3
CTraining03 = 0.45
CTraining04 = 0.6

Unit Changes

RSoldier01
Bounty = 3 (normally 4)
XP = 21 (normally 33)

RArcher01
Bounty = 4 (normally 8)
XP = 17 (normally 33)

RAngel01
Target Priority = Catapultasarus, Priest, Everything

Other Changes:
Various Enhanced AI overrides to change citadel purchasing weights. (Like buy priests at WR3).

Locked Post 46 Replies +1
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 20, 2011 11:52:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

so basically Sedna and Rook are screwed and no one ever makes money?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 12:21:28 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Double basic creep stats rather than doubling their number.  This won't affect MetaImpact balance at all (they still die either way), while keeping the performance impact low.  Maps like Brothers and Ziggurat already run poorly for plenty of people with current creep numbers, and maps like Cataract don't even have enough lane space to allow that many creeps to clash in a line.

Don't know if I agree with removing all xp/gold for higher-level creeps - I'd make them worth the same amount as the basic creeps, so at worst you double your enemies' creep income while getting a lot more mileage out of your creep upgrades than in vanilla Demigod (especially if you increase Angel, Priest, and Catapult base stats at least 50% - Giants are tough enough as-is).

 

Also, moving the gold income into the citadel upgrades just makes them more absolutely required, and makes it that much more important that you get them immediately at your war rank level up (and makes having a higher war rank than your opponents even more important).

I would suggest increasing the income of the gold mines instead, and settling with a lower cost for the currency citadel upgrades.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 12:29:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Edit: This is in response to Hedgie

On money no.

Money is the same early game because there are double the units at 1/2 the bounty.
Gold Production II and III (WR 5 and 7) make up for the lack of bounty on additional support troops. (which never get built until WR 8/10 anyways)

I tested it, it is about the same for gold production in a 30 minute game. you just you get more scaled across the game. Instead of alot right at the end.

On Rook

Maybe tower rook is a little weaker at the start because his towers can be dived easily if you nuke his creep wave... but his level 8 cleave will clear out the creeps that have been doubled when he gets to that level. I guess he can also use the ban hammer on them a little earlier than normal.

On Sedna

I guess 2vs2 is more of a problem, being forced to buy idols and maybe even sinking a point in Yetis is a bummer. So is investing in anti-creep items like forest band, warlord's punisher and Armor of Vengance.

On the bright side, counter healing is a very nice advantage vs cit priests since they show up before WR8 or 10 now.

This is 0.1 version though, nothing is set in stone for another 10 builds or so.

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 12:38:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting miriyaka,
Double basic creep stats rather than doubling their number.  This won't affect MetaImpact balance at all (they still die either way), while keeping the performance impact low.  Maps like Brothers and Ziggurat already run poorly for plenty of people with current creep numbers, and maps like Cataract don't even have enough lane space to allow that many creeps to clash in a line.

Don't know if I agree with removing all xp/gold for higher-level creeps - I'd make them worth the same amount as the basic creeps, so at worst you double your enemies' creep income while getting a lot more mileage out of your creep upgrades than in vanilla Demigod (especially if you increase Angel, Priest, and Catapult base stats at least 50% - Giants are tough enough as-is).

 

Also, moving the gold income into the citadel upgrades just makes them more absolutely required, and makes it that much more important that you get them immediately at your war rank level up (and makes having a higher war rank than your opponents even more important).

I would suggest increasing the income of the gold mines instead, and settling with a lower cost for the currency citadel upgrades.

Doubling minion stats would not even come remotely close to the same effect as doubling the creeps.

I was thinking maybe bringing minotaurs down to 8, but there really isn't a problem with 10 on cata.

Troop build up is not really a problem because of how easy tower upgrades are to come by.Buy yeah, 4 wave maps are a problem for people with lower procesors and video cards unless they lower detail / resolution.

Money really isn't a problem like this, it is still really hard to fall too far behind in the early WRs because the flag control WR bonus does not kick in until after Gold II.

I guess I should say where this came from.

Basically being in the RoI beta for a week now has brought me in contact with alot of GOOD MOBA players from LoL and HoN. They ABSOLUTELY hate demigod's lane mechanics and would rather gouge their eyes out than play it.

We may love demigod just the way it is, but those MOBAs have a HUGE player base, and this is one aspect in demigod that needs adjusting.

It will also increase the power of sucky demigods who just happen to be excellent at nuking creep waves but not so excellent at fighting demigods.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 12:58:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ooo

Kuddos to you for making another mod.  I'll check this out sometime tomorrow if possible and read the thread.   and thx.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 1:43:20 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just to Just to doublecheck concerns about gold

Acutal Check vs Theory Check


Live Game
26 minute game + laneing + Gold Prod upgrades bought ASAP = 32K gold (no kills)

Calculation
Priests, Angels, Cata and Giants = 448 Gold per wave and one typical wave comes every 30 seconds.

vs

8 extra more gold per second from the citadel than usual for all players (240 gold per wave)

So end game in a 3vs3 its 896 bounty (missing wave) vs 720 (extra gold per second to 3 players)

Of course the gold is piling up more starting at WR 5 and 7... so you'll be further ahead going into the end of a typical game if you are buying gear and not cit upgrades.

Cit upgrade cost of ownership is a bit harder to judge: costs are down, but you need to buy more. eg: If you don't upgrade towers and creeps, you are going to get steam rolled unless you can control your lane.

Also isn't Tribute nice now?

As for XP

It is 238 XP per wave you can farm (10 minotaurs and 4 archers)

Buy now you can you afford XP upgrades and it scales higher.

You'll level less at the end game with all the special units are put in play, but you'll be around level 13/14 at WR 10 if you are buying the XP upgrades.

Note: This didn't just "happen" this way for gold and XP, it was designed mostly this way.

Is it correct? Maybe maybe not, but the XP and Gold acquired curve is smooth now, rather than abruptly increasing at the end of the game.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 2:08:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

okay, well then lets consider who this doesn't really affect (or, basically buffs) since they can put out large AoE damage regardless of the number of actual models in the vicinity. 

Oak. Surge will still kill minos/etc. 

TB. RoI/CoF will still kill everything.

UB. Ooze will still kill everything. 

Queen. GS will still kill everything. 

Occ. Double Bounce will still kill everything. (CL will be hindered). 

Reg. Mines will still kill everything. 

 

These demigods are, for all intents and purposes, almost completely unaffected by this change (although some cope better than others... Oak with DJ and TB with BotS benefit even more, Reg might struggle with mana). 

 

---

Draw: 

Erebus. Batswarm kills a lot, Mass Charm still works, but he won't be able to cope like the others due to mana costs and cooldowns. 

 

Loses: 

Rook. Can't deal with 2x Catapults wrecking him up.

Sedna, DA. No need to explain. 

 

Which demigods need to take advantage of their early game strength to win... Erebus, Rook, Sedna. oh hi. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 3:08:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah, this makes early AoE massively important. Having to base your item purchases entirely around killing creeps early on is going to kill you in the long run.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 9:22:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hedige, are you sure you meant 2X Cata? Special units are unaffected, only Minotaurs and Archers are doubled, the rest of the wave can still only be  3 priests, 2 angels, 2 cata and 2 giants.

Some other stuff
GS and SoF do not one shot upgraded creeps.
DA has Warp Area, dodge, high AA for proc effects etc...
Again Rook has Hammer if he starts to get overrun, and level 8 cleave.
Erebus can always put more than 1 point in mist besides choose a variety of anti-creep gear.

As for the rest of the DGs, well, the only real person who can complain ALOT is Sedna since her only AoE is Heal IV. (but it is nice to see that actually make a big difference)
She'll need to gear more towards creeps if she is planning to fight creeps (eg: minotaur idols + RoDM and other choices), but this doesn't mean we can't further adjust things further for her.

Creep Farming stuff like Divine Justice and Blade of the Serpent will need to be adjusted.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 10:23:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Kitkun,
Yeah, this makes early AoE massively important. Having to base your item purchases entirely around killing creeps early on is going to kill you in the long run.

 

That's sort of the point, you have to make that choice. You don't have to spec AoE.

When you start having to worry about creeps, there are whole new items and skill trees to consider, rather than tanking to fight demigods.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 6:13:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting LORD-ORION,
That's sort of the point, you have to make that choice. You don't have to spec AoE.

When you start having to worry about creeps, there are whole new items and skill trees to consider, rather than tanking to fight demigods.

Then you fall behind in gear and/or levels for fighting Demigods and you can't compete anymore.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 21, 2011 9:05:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with hedgie, this hurts no- or low-AOE demigods a lot more.  The ones that have to attack creeps directly are screwed now, and most of those aren't actually the best at killing other demigods.

Doubling creep stats would reverse the equation, making AOE still useful, but not insanely overpowered vs creeps compared to good autoattack damage and regeneration/armor/survivability.  There are simply not enough good AOE items at the low levels to justify a change that completely, massively favors demigods with existing AOE abilities, nor should those already-slightly-gimped demigods need to focus that much more on anti-creep items.

Quoting LORD-ORION,
GS and SoF do not one shot upgraded creeps.
DA has Warp Area, dodge, high AA for proc effects etc...
Again Rook has Hammer if he starts to get overrun, and level 8 cleave.
Erebus can always put more than 1 point in mist besides choose a variety of anti-creep gear.

Of these, only the Erebus point is true, although the game's 'anti-creep gear' still leaves quite a lot to be desired.  GS leaves even the most upgraded creeps weak enough for shamblers to finish off in one shot. Any demigod with a strong true AOE (all the ones that hedgie listed) just got that much stronger.

Meanwhile, Warp Area has a fixed number of targets and is not true AOE, Hammer doesn't have a large enough area of effect to kill more than 3 creeps at a time, and Sedna is totally hung out to dry.

 

Putting all of the gold income on cheap citadel upgrades also has the problem of completely cementing early WR leads.  Again, increase the base income of all gold mines instead, which boosts both initial income and gold-flag income.  Not that gold flags aren't important enough, but at least that makes holding a gold flag at the cost of flag majority a viable strategy (and probably wouldn't change Cataract gameplay much if at all).

 

I don't really disagree with what you're trying to do, just with one (ok, two) of the methods you're using.  Demigod isn't LoL or HoN, and you can't just translate the creep mechanics from those games wholesale - you have to take into account that DG's strong anti-hero heroes also have the best AoE, almost all of which can one-shot creeps.  This is typically not the case in other MOBAs, so you have to tweak the creep mechanics in such a way as to not totally screw auto-attack- or minion-only demigods.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 12:03:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

\Using this mod players will Need to purchase gold income as a must. Also by increasing gold incomes while decreasing cost of cit upgrade for gold.... I think you may as well increase gold income by the citadel for free with 10 increments, 1 for each war rank. The idea of gold cost being moderately expensive is that early you chose between gear or gold - in the hope for kills or more time on field to farm you chose gear. If you're playing cautious early and invest in gold you get gear later game.

With these gold changes, gear and upgrades both become relatively affordable so the gold/gear strategies are removed from the game, plus it makes it pretty much mandatory to get all gold upgrades as soon as war rank permits because that's exactly what the enemy will be doing.

Also, increase of creep numbers sounds like fun. I like that, but DG lacking AOE dam will need a buff to balance. Perhaps for example sedna striking a small unit (grunt or archer) sends the unit flying in the air. 1 strike kills. TB rainII and UB ooze can wipe out an entire wave in seconds. Sed and Erebus have no such luxury. And rook would require some extra angle to cope. Perhaps a "tower restore" skill when instead of erecting a new tower he can heal a tower for less mana cost?

 

Thanks for the cool mod, but I think my pc/net won't handle it too well.  brother,

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 12:30:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

if this only doubles archers and minos and not the other minions, my argument is "slightly" weaker. 

However, earlier+cheaper Catapults+Giants is still going to tear up DA/Sed/Rook. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 1:44:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Running_Lukas,
I think you may as well increase gold income by the citadel for free with 10 increments, 1 for each war rank.

I agree, the upgrades are somewhat superfluous (as upgrades) if they pay for themselves in < 3 minutes.  There's no reason not to instantly get them.  Even in stock Demigod, Currency I may as well just be built into the first three war ranks, because you never don't get it.

If you're worried about the difficulty of adding war rank-based gold, it's pretty trivial.  Hook /lua/sim/conquest.lua, hook the WELevelUp function, iterate allied brains and get their heroes, adding a +1 gold production buff.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 8:13:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

First of all, I like that Mod. Since I play mainly singleplayer, changes are welcome. The AI (enhanced) does it job not too bad but no doubt, even a weak human player could be more challenging (can´t be sure here, but I think so ^^)

 

Rook does get "gods strength" at rank 5, so I don´t get it, why you say Rook has a cleaving attack at Lvl 8?

I tried it, and cleaning a wave with "gods strength" just worked fine.

 

It´s also a nice idea to let the income upgrade automatically I think. But I don´t bother buying it anyway.

With an automatic gold upgrade capturing flags and gaining warscore gets more important, doesn´t it? If you get an advancement in warscore it is more likely you get overpowered overall because cleaning creepwaves becomes less important?

 

But really cool you work on mods, lord-orion, since I really like the crazy-town mod. Keep going!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 4:18:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Running_Lukas,
\Using this mod players will Need to purchase gold income as a must. Also by increasing gold incomes while decreasing cost of cit upgrade for gold.... I think you may as well increase gold income by the citadel for free with 10 increments, 1 for each war rank. The idea of gold cost being moderately expensive is that early you chose between gear or gold - in the hope for kills or more time on field to farm you chose gear. If you're playing cautious early and invest in gold you get gear later game.

With these gold changes, gear and upgrades both become relatively affordable so the gold/gear strategies are removed from the game, plus it makes it pretty much mandatory to get all gold upgrades as soon as war rank permits because that's exactly what the enemy will be doing.

Also, increase of creep numbers sounds like fun. I like that, but DG lacking AOE dam will need a buff to balance. Perhaps for example sedna striking a small unit (grunt or archer) sends the unit flying in the air. 1 strike kills. TB rainII and UB ooze can wipe out an entire wave in seconds. Sed and Erebus have no such luxury. And rook would require some extra angle to cope. Perhaps a "tower restore" skill when instead of erecting a new tower he can heal a tower for less mana cost?

 

Thanks for the cool mod, but I think my pc/net won't handle it too well.  brother,

 

 

There is no bounty on priests angels cata or giants. There is more gold available going into the end game, but it does not sky rocket like it does ar WR10 when everyone puts the add on units in play.

The cit upgrades are cheaper, but not if you have to actually buy them to keep up.
eg: Someone like Erebus or Reg buys priests + troop armor +  troop attack at WR3, this is something you absolutely cannot do in a normal game. But, an upgraded mob of 10X minotaurs 4x Archers and 3x priests is crazy dangerous.\

I'll go back to the whole MOBA argument I am seeing again in Rise of Immortals, where the immortals have strict roles in the game and creeps actually mean something.

You can be all that fighting off other Immortals with the "carry" immortals, but the creeps can and will F up your "carry" immortals if a tank specced to anti-creep duty clears your wave out and then you try to kill him.

You can see design patterns in Demigod where this was on their minds with both skills and items, but the Demigod meta game does not allow it at all. With a few exceptions, cit upgrades are way overpriced compared to gear. Early creeps are laughably pathetic and so are most minions builds. Buying any citadel troops before WR8 is suicidal, and in certain matches you wait until WR10.

The great thing about demigod is that you do not pick a Demigod to fill a role, you build into it.

This needs to be fixed.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 6:13:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting miriyaka,

Quoting Running_Lukas, reply 13I think you may as well increase gold income by the citadel for free with 10 increments, 1 for each war rank.
I agree, the upgrades are somewhat superfluous (as upgrades) if they pay for themselves in < 3 minutes.  There's no reason not to instantly get them.  Even in stock Demigod, Currency I may as well just be built into the first three war ranks, because you never don't get it.

If you're worried about the difficulty of adding war rank-based gold, it's pretty trivial.  Hook /lua/sim/conquest.lua, hook the WELevelUp function, iterate allied brains and get their heroes, adding a +1 gold production buff.

You always get it, yes, but what matters is WHO gets it.

In the ideal world of MOBA, demigods specced to kill creeps and deny lanes (tank) would not, nor would those built to be anti-demigod (carry). It would need to be a support unit, so they don't beef up on as much gear and render the importance of tank and carry roles. (as in the support unit will be geared lower, so the carry is a threat to them, and to make sure the support unit can't buy gear to be a pseudo tank)

As it is now in a typical game, there is CUR1 and FS1 100% of the time, and that only hurts somebody once at the start of the game, and not really all that badly since creeps are pathetic, so you usually use someone who doesn't rely on gear.

In MOBA 0.1 you MUST get XP 1 (900 gold) get CUR1 (1200 gold) and Priests (1200) is optional, but gives you a pretty big advantage rather than disadvantage now.

Following up right after you ideally must get XP II and Gold II (1200 and 1800)... now you need to start making team decisions.

Because of the number of Minotaurs, Armory, BlackSmith and Tower upgrades are all contenders for purchase too depending on what is happening in the lanes.

I also can't help but notice nobody has downloaded the mod.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 6:32:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting miriyaka,


I don't really disagree with what you're trying to do, just with one (ok, two) of the methods you're using.  Demigod isn't LoL or HoN, and you can't just translate the creep mechanics from those games wholesale - you have to take into account that DG's strong anti-hero heroes also have the best AoE, almost all of which can one-shot creeps.  This is typically not the case in other MOBAs, so you have to tweak the creep mechanics in such a way as to not totally screw auto-attack- or minion-only demigods.

Yes, however the consequence for getting kicked out / ignoring a lane is higher. There is no real danger early on in Demigod if you kick TB out of the lane and have to have DA or Sedna babysit the tower. In MOBA they need to be geared to fight creeps or they have a disadvantage.

This is one of the reasons why modding the 5 minotuars and 2 archers to be tougher is not as good as adding more (besides being able to do that in game settings). I don't want them that much tougher under tower fire, or against AoE (unless upgraded, the original design is mostly balanced around this), I do want them tougher vs demigods not specced to lane, or when ignored.

Also, what I need is a way to set up citadel upgrade priorities in the Enhanced AI's hero build templates, so I can do things like "Regulus" has a much higher chance of needing to buy Gold 1,2,3 before gear compared to UB (who will get it if everyone else is slacking and he has X amount invested in gear). Any help in this regard?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 7:36:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You aren't getting it.  There is no 'choice' with getting ANY gold upgrades, because they WILL pay for themselves in a very reasonable amount of time, while massively boosting your teammates' income.  Getting Gold I or Priests isn't a choice - you get Gold I, and then you make back enough to afford Priests again in a matter of minutes, and/or one of your teammates just buys Priests outright.

XP upgrades make sense.  Gold upgrades do not, because they're costing the resource that they give, and at the prices and amounts you have them set to, they're all 100% automatic buys due to payoff time.  Just integrate it into WR and eliminate the useless busywork of buying the upgrades.

Quoting LORD-ORION,
Yes, however the consequence for getting kicked out / ignoring a lane is higher. There is no real danger early on in Demigod if you kick TB out of the lane and have to have DA or Sedna babysit the tower. In MOBA they need to be geared to fight creeps or they have a disadvantage.

This is one of the reasons why modding the 5 minotuars and 2 archers to be tougher is not as good as adding more (besides being able to do that in game settings). I don't want them that much tougher under tower fire, or against AoE (unless upgraded, the original design is mostly balanced around this), I do want them tougher vs demigods not specced to lane, or when ignored.

Except that you're still ignoring the fact that the best AOE demigods are also the best 'assassin' demigods.  If it were UB, Oak, Erebus, TB etc getting completely screwed by these changes, then you might have a point.  But they don't suffer at all, in fact they become even more ridiculously powerful, because they now no longer need to fear either creeps or other demigods.

There is no way to increase creep numbers without boosting the insane power of the current AOE demigods.  This mod, as you envision it, is not possible without a complete rebalance of every single top-tier demigod, including a completely replacement of half their abilities.

 

If creep effectiveness vs towers is what's keeping you from increasing hitpoints instead of numbers, then boost tower HP and damage.  If, as you say, the creep upgrades are actually worth getting now, then late-game boosted creeps will have no trouble pushing base-boosted and upgraded towers.  If anything, it will reinforce your main goal, which is make creeps useful, because early-game tower-crunching won't be doable without creep support.

I don't know if you've played LoL or HoN, but the towers are not pushovers in those games, and usually take a coordinated effort between creeps and multiple heroes to finally topple.  In comparison, Demigod towers blow over in a strong breeze.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 9:13:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

More:

Gold: You spent 1200 for Gold I and then waited to buy 1200 on priests.

OK you can do that.

But the part you neglected is that you still needed 2400 gold to do that, and that's 1 medium and 1 small item the enemy carry and tank have you don't. This ensures that there are demigods on each team that are not geared as much as the others... and this will always be happening at every war rank.

You absolutely must have the gold to buy gold, and the real point being who buys it. This is absolutely necessary to pull demigod out of it's crappy meta game of "every role is to kill demigods, and some demigods are not as good at this as others."

Now, next issue:

How can you possibly argue an "AoE" demigod like UB is more powerful when the threat DPS from creeps starts off twice as high, he can't auto-attack his way through a wave, and more + upgraded units will be making their way onto the field before he is as geared as he normally is at WR8/10.

He has no choice now BUT to use ooze and self-damage himself while the DPS from the creepwave escalates. That is weaker, not stronger.

Tower vs Creep upgrades.
These mechanics are already there, I'm just enabling them and making them as meaningful as buying gear.

When I do the next update of this mod, I'll include a DPS threat per WR from creeps compared to normal demigod. It is not insignificant damage now.

LoL and HoN towers...
A regular Demigod tower is weaker by comparative strength, but tower clusters can be just as viscious in demigod. (look at the outside lanes of leviathan or the centre towers on cataract)

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 22, 2011 10:17:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

How is spending 2400 in Cur I and priests any different than someone spending 2400 for Regen and Cur I in the current game?

Even if you are outgeared because you choose to purchase gold when they decided to purchase items, in 3 minutes you're going to have your gold back. At worst you'll be a bit behind in warscore. 

 

UB doesn't have to walk through the enemy creep wave. He can stand behind his own creeps, or he can also invest in stuff like Post Mortem or Plague. So he does have a choice to do other things (lol I like how you said he has no other options). Also level 15 spit ability.

 

Leveling up creeps will still be pointless against Oak/TB/Queen/Occulus. 

 

How are you suggesting Rook, Sedna and DA cope with the increased creep damage? DA and Sedna can have difficulty just being in a lane against Giants, never mind AoE demigods killing their creep wave. How are they going to be able to hold their own if minos are now serious threats? Throwing down over 2000 gold for demos/NR is not a valid suggestion. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 23, 2011 12:10:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Uh, in addition to Ooze, which is really effective and easily compensated for with some minor regen, UB has Post-Mortem.  Which still slaughters all creeps in a large area in seconds with a handful of autoattacks.  And since creeps now give reduced bounty and xp, the loss of kill credit in non-UberFix games is now totally meaningless.  So yes, your changes boost UB absolutely massively in every way.

Quoting LORD-ORION,
You absolutely must have the gold to buy gold, and the real point being who buys it. This is absolutely necessary to pull demigod out of it's crappy meta game of "every role is to kill demigods, and some demigods are not as good at this as others."

You had to have gold to buy gold in the unmodded game, and yet any team that doesn't get Currency I immediately on availability is almost certain to lose.  Your gold costs are now so low as to be irrelevant, making every level of Currency an automatic insta-purchase, and no team worth their salt would consider not having a whopping 2400 gold on hand at WR 5 or 6 or whenever III comes available when they're guaranteed to get that money back within 3-4 minutes, and make tons of profit on top of that.

Paying for gold upgrades is a dumb, broken mechanic - period.  All you're doing is making it worse.

And like it or not, every demigod's role IS to kill other demigods, AND the ones that do it best are ALSO the best at killing creeps.  Your changes make this worse, not better.  You're going to have to modify a hell of a lot more than creep numbers and rewards if you want to create new demigod roles out of thin air.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 23, 2011 1:36:55 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

well, investing into your economy to get a stronger economy later on /is/ important, and isn't a 'dumb broken mechanic'. Just about every RTS ever does it to a certain degree (you invest wood to build farms to get food, or you spend a few minerals to train a miner who will make more minerals, or you invest electricity and labor to make a larger power grid). See GPG's sup com games for why they do this. 

 

Currency is okay in that regard, and the 1800 gold is reasonably costly in 1v1 and 2v2 since as you purchase it you'll also give up lane control temporarily. 3v3+ it's not even sort of a debate of whether or not to get it. I think that baking in currency into the warscore equation would be a better way to do it (+1 gold every other warscore or something like that), but paying to "tier up" your economy, again, has strong ties to RTS mechanics. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 23, 2011 7:15:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It works in an RTS because not getting it is a viable, sometimes even favorable choice.
This is because 1) it takes significant time to pay off, and that time and opportunity cost can often cost you the game if your opponent knows you're econ-rushing and pressures you with more resources invested in units, and 2) it only affects you, so the time-to-payoff is absolute and it doesn't give immediate, significant benefit to your allies.  Most RTSes also tie investment in resource gain to physical objects that can be destroyed or captured (mass extractors, command centers/peons, etc), so there's more risk yet than just the short-term opportunity cost.

Obviously these are not concerns in Demigod, and so there is no reason not to get Currency I in an unmodded game (even in a 1v1), and no reason not to get all levels of Currency in this mod.  It's not about making an optional short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain, it's do-or-die, because the sacrifice is very short-term and is far outweighed by the gain.  And it can't be taken away by any means other than immediate defeat (which doesn't happen even if you abandon your lanes for a few cycles, for a variety of reasons).


If it boosted gold mine output rather than giving direct passive gold income, this might at least be favorable to the original model for some maps by encouraging the capture of more gold flags - but on most maps (those with dual gold flags and/or few contestable gold mines, which is all of the played maps) the outcome would be the same.  This would still be favorable to a level of passive income that makes gold mines almost irrelevant, however.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108433  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000890   Page Render Time:

Stardock Magazine | Register | Online Privacy Policy | Terms of Use

Copyright © 2016 Stardock Entertainment and Gas Powered Games. Demigod is a trademark of Gas Powered Games. All rights reserved. All other trademarks and copyrights are the properties of their respective owners. Windows, the Windows Vista Start button and Xbox 360 are trademarks of the Microsoft group of companies, and 'Games for Windows' and the Windows Vista Start button logo are used under license from Microsoft. © 2012 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. All rights reserved. AMD, the AMD Arrow logo and combinations thereof are trademarks of Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.