Alternative support character builds summary

(Sedna and QoT)

By on January 2, 2011 7:36:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dlarimit

Join Date 10/2010
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This post summarizes some of my remarks and observations from different threads, so much of the info presented here may naturally appear somewhat redundant. I am 100% sure there are better Sednas and QoTs than me, but the scarcity of dedicated support players that can actually re-think, analyze and formulate things, as well as me actually getting pretty good with both characters (at least, according to half a dozen top-tier players I play with/against on a relatively regular basis -- maybe they are just nice to me, dunno) can somewhat justify me, and not one of the better folks, posting this... I hope   

I. Sedna

My major issues with current pro builds are: (1) disproportional prominence of Silence; (2) too much emphasis on leveling up Heal; (3) Pounce getting neglected/postponed (at least, in Hedgie's and Hedgie-inspired builds); (4) IG being considered "a selfish skill" and "a newb trap". In particular:

(1) Since practice > theory, and I always get Silence I at 6-8 in skilled matches, I'm revising the statement I made in my previous Sedna-related post  Silence I is a must-have at levels 6-8, while Silence II and III aren't a priority and should be postponed until very late game.

(2) Heal should never be a priority after the very first point. Heal I is a must-have early game for emergencies, Heal III is nice to have afterwards due to debuff removal, but I wouldn't call it crucial. Sedna's main source of healing should be HW-enhanced bishops, not her own Heals. Keeping Heal level minimal until mid game also ensures you can always help a focused teammate when needed. +600 hp may not sound like a big deal, but it's an emergency-only skill and it is absolutely adequate to its purpose: preventing early kills by the opposing team.

(3) To quote Hedgie, Pounce is "one of the worst offensive abilities in the game. It has no debuffs, no AoE, you can't use it while you are chasing". On the other hand, it is a fast interrupt with a great cooldown, a decent range (9) and damage, plus you can (and, IMHO, should!) max it out qute early. Its most important advantage is its being Sedna's only decent source of damage, and being able to deal some concentrated damage is a critical quality in skilled 3v3 matches.

(4) I am firmly convinced IG I is a critical early skill, unless you don't level Pounce and have no intention to actively assist your teammates in getting some kills. Besides a great +10 hps bonus, it gives you a +0.3 y/s, which is just enough to keep up with Erbs and UBs early game. Chase and AA until down to 600-800 hp > Pounce II/III got me a lot of early kills. No, not against noobs. Even experienced people tend not to expect concentrated damage from Sedna, especially at level 6-7. That said, IG II and III are selfish skills and newb traps, and should either be postponed or never taken.

Favor: BotF

1. Heal I

2. HW I

3. IG I

4. Pounce I

5. HW II

6. Pounce II

7. Pounce III

8. Silence I

9. CH (generals)/Heal II (no generals)

10. Pounce IV

11. Heal II/Heal III

12. Heal III/MP I

13. MP I/MP II

14. MP II/Heal IV

15. MP III

16. Silence II

17. Silence III

18. Life's Child

19. IG II

20. IG III

Items: 1 helm (Vlemish > Hungarling, if possible), 4 hp items (3 armors + Unbreakables). Sedna is not about skill-spamming. You spam only Pounce. Silence and Heal are saved for specific circumstances. Start with Monks, then at WR3 Cur1 (possibly also FS1) and Banded, then, ASAP, Bishops.

Priority order: (1) Banded; (2) Nimoth; (3) Bishops/High Priests (another general on your team); (4) Unbreakables; (5) Hauberk; (6) Vlemish; (7) Banded > Girdle of Giants; (8) Siege Demolishers; (9) upgrades (Nimoth > Groffling, Vlemish > Hungarling, etc.). Yes, may sound a bit radical, but that's what works best for this build. You don't need a lot of mana. You don't spam anything, all your skills are strictly situational (Pounce is a situational finisher/interrupt skill, not a fire-at-will nuke). Your strongest levels are probably 6-10. You are going to score a handful of kills, if you use Pounce correctly. In a skilled team, the allies will burden you only with Cur1, so you will be able to get the Girdle relatively early. The general principle in DG is: buy early, don't save. However, I believe early Girdle makes this build at least twice as effective: immense hp/hps boost, great help at farming due to 100% Cleave property, significant dps increase for the already heavy-hitting DG. Save instead of upgrading to Groffling+Hungarling and of buying Demolishers ASAP, it will pay off.

If you are sceptical as to whether it is practically possible, a bit of elementary math. Usually, I have Groffling, Hungarling, Siege Dems by later mid/early late game. Banded > Groffling = 4760 g; Vlemish > Hungarling = 4100 g ; Siege Dems = 2050 g. Grand total = 10910 g. Banded > Girdle of Giants = 12560 g. You need only 1650 g more if you don't upgrade and don't get Dems ASAP.

Orb of Defiance is not a bad option, as it's very strong on Sed (less than 1/3 hp left>Orb>Heal with Life's Child active is enough to get those gank-happy DAs frustrated). However, I don't think it's worth it, in a long run. Having 3 consumable slots is more important than an additional safety mechanism and a +500 passive bonus to health and armor: you are already safe and not easily killable, while dropping locks (or, worse, sigils) for OoD is usually a short-sighted decision. If you do get OoD, be sure to take Life's Child at 16: while not a super-great skill, it's actually very good with OoD.

I almost never take Nature's Reckoning. In 3v3, some hp stacking will be a much wiser investment, generally speaking. See section III below for additional details. 

Artifacts: Unfortunately, only passive effect (non-useable) artifacts are really viable for Sedna in a skilled match. Having locks, tp scrolls and sigils should always take precedence over everything else. That really limits Sedna's possibilities as far as artifact choice is concerned, in the priority order: (1) Girdle of Giants is the best passive artifact option: get it ASAP, if the game is going well for your team, and for you in particular, you can get it mid-game, if you don't upgrade armor pieces and helm (i. e., don't go Vlemish > Hungaling, Banded > Groffling, etc.) and don't get Siege Dems; (2) Stormbringer (cooldowns halved with a flag + MP III: -47%) is your artifact helm that has a great synergy to MP III; (3) Bulwark: an universal staple, so it's a viable option. However, I don't think it's a high priority artifact for Sedna. If you have 16k and want to get a second artifact, wait a bit and get Stormbringer.

If you are willing to risk dropping sigils or locks, you should bear in mind the main purpose of getting artifacts for Sedna is to compensate for her two main weaknesses late game: lack of AoE and poor AA speed. Thus, you have two good cheap options. (1) Orb of Veiled Storms. Cheap, good AA speed boost, gets late game hp regen through the roof, provides a decent anti-creep AoE (Orb > Heal IV = 700 damage in 10 y radius, enough to deal with a creepwave, save giants). (2) Cloak of Flames. Costs 2k more, but both AoE and AA speed boost are better. Also solves potential late game mana problems that might arise in long skirmishes with 1 helm only.  

Role: This Sedna build excels both at tanking/aura buffing and at setting up/securing kills. Of course, since Sedna's tankability relies exclusively on Bishops, they should be prioritized. This Sedna fares well against any matchup, with the obvious exception of Rook (against whom, I believe, she's also significantly better than Silence-Heal Sedna). In short, it's as good a compromise as I could find between strong Sedna ("Fight, goddamit! You do no damage, dude!") and smart Sedna ("Silence that freaking Oak already, dude!"/"Heal, heal, heal, dude! I just wanted to get the kill, so I followed their Reg to the crystal!"). Everyone will be happy with your performance, with the important exception of your enemies. You'll be able to support your main carry and get (steal!) a solid number of kills yourself. Doggu will love you, Kira will love you, Nomilarac will love you, Renz will love you. Hell, maybe even Nnnils will love you, and that's a bold claim to make! Only Pacov will hate you, but that goes without saying.

Levels 1-5: You are quite strong and can afford to take some risks. Most opponents will think they can take on you 1v1, try to use it to your advantage and yellow deny them some flags by big-ass outtanking. What I like to do early game to maximize Sed's tanking potential is to get Monks and run to contest mid ASAP. Regardless of the outcome, split your Monks between hp and mana lanes, and run back to the shop. You should have ~550 g by this point, so buy Banded, then go hp (or mana, if needed). You lose a tiny bit of experience this way, but gain a lot of staying power, so it's a good trade-off.

Levels 6-10: If you play your cards right, you'll get several kills here (800 damage at level 7 is not something people will expect from a support DG). However, be aware you are quite fragile (gimped from purchasing Cur1, and possibly also Cur2 and FS1). If your teammates are aware of game dynamics, they will protect you, so you are in no great danger. Still, I suggest always carrying a sigil starting with level 6, when you start chasing and finishing.

Levels 11-20: Your kit should be complete by level 11, so no need to be overly careful, you can tank if needed. Try to stick to your main carry's arse, especially if he goes deep into enemy's territory. Needless to say, you are the main locker.

II. QoT

My major issues with current pro builds are: (1) unnecessarily Mulch-oriented at early levels; (2) too little priority assigned to SW by most/some super-pro players getting SW III; (3) the basic concept of QoT as main carry is flawed. In detail:

(1) Mulch I is a costly (700 mana, 2 skill points), slow (cast times, summon appearance delay), inconvenient (mad clicking obligatory) way to heal 750 hp. It should be taken only as a pre-requisite to Mulch II and III, which are, indeed, great skills. Getting it at 5 (and investing another point in Summon Shambler!) is a mistake certain top-tier players manage to get away with only due to their exceptional personal skill. It's highly inefficient, and definitely not worth getting, unless you like a challenge. Period. 

(2) Spike Wave I and II are great and should be taken ASAP (at 5 and 10). On the other hand, Spike Wave III should never be taken due to whopping 50% cooldown increase.

(3) There is little doubt that in a skilled player's hands, QoT can function as a main carry/tank. However, it's evident it is not her optimal role. Obviously, currently fashionable Mulch-happy pro QoT builds are heavily lure/kill-oriented. Well, what can I say... I'm sure it's possible to drive a nail with, say, an electronic microscope, but I'd rather use a  , thank you. I don't think gimping oneself as a support for what essentially is a one-trick pony (luring, then getting a kill due to early Mulch) is a fortunate idea. If you can pull it off -- more power to you, but presenting it as the greatest QoT playstyle ever is a bit of a stretch.

Favor: BotF

1. BS I

2. GS I

3. SAVE

4. GS II

5. SW I

6. SAVE

7. BS II + GS III (this is the point you should have enough mana regen to consistently cast 560 mana BS) 

8. SAVE

9. SAVE

10. BS III + BS IV + GS IV + SW II (at this point, you should maximize your BS potential, as alpha nukes damage potential peaks here)

11. SAVE

12. SAVE

13. SAVE

14. SAVE

15. Entourage I-III + Tribute + GoT / Shambler I + Mulch I-III + GoT (go the second route only if you feel you need to tank a lot late game: an undesirable scenario, but possible)

16-20: Get Shamblers I-IV (or II-IV + Entourage I) in any case, either for a hefty increasy of mostly anti-structure dps or for easier Mulching. 

Items: 2 helms (Vlemish, then Vlemish + Plenor, then Hungarling + Vlemish), 3 hp items (2 armors + Unbreakables). Start with Monks, then at WR3 Cur1 (possibly also FS1) and Vlemish, then Unbreakables.

Getting Magus Rod instead of Plenor is an interesting possibility. It gives an additional hp item slot, but is inconvenient both in that it adds additional microing to an already microing-heavy DG, and in that it occupies one consumable slot. Overall, I think it's preferable to run with two helms, but certain circumstances can surely dictate otherwise. For example, if you get Bulwark at level 15+, you probably should drop locks and get Magus Rod instead.

Artifacts: QoT has no particular weaknesses late game, so artifacts should serve to augment her strengths, instead. Bulwark should be your top priority: 40% permanent damage reduction in unpacked form makes late-game QoT insanely powerful, practically invincible. Bracelet of Rage is also an interesting option, but as it takes up a consumable slot, I cannot really recommend it.

Role: Levels 1-10: You get at least Cur1 (sometimes also FS1 and Cur2), so you are quite fragile (though not as fragile as your opponents tend to think) and will be focused a lot. Play it very conservatively. Stay back, shield your main carry/lane partner, ground spike when needed (learn to pull off the GS cancel trick to make the enemies run away, as mana is scarce), do not forget to spike wave the ganked DGs. Assist in pushing the corner towers with GS. Either learn QoT's skills mana cost* by heart ASAP, or write them down: you cannot see BS costs while unpacked, and vice versa.

*) Please note QoT is the only DG to have two serious skill cost:efficiency ratio progression aberrations. Most skills are somewhat linear in this respect, e. g. Shield I is 400 mana, Shield II is 500 mana, Shield III is 600 mana, and Shield IV is 700 mana. There are some exceptions to this rule (for example, Bite or Boulder Roll), but they don't break the linear progression cardinally. QoT, however, has: (1) the same mana cost of 500 for both GS I and GS II, and (2) a sudden cooldown increase from 10 s for SW II to 15 s for SW III. These features (or glitches?) are unique and should be taken into account by any serious QoT player.

Levels 11-15: Your role changes radically. Start to demolish mid while your teammates begin to push portals. Be cautious and methodical, synchronize your ground spiking with creep waves. You'll both destroy mid towers and get to 15 very quickly this way. I don't think this strategy can be countered if you have decent teammates. If 2 opponents will try to gank you, they'll lose one of the portals, and 1v1 no one will stop you, given GS insane radius.

Levels 16-20: Depending on the route taken at 15 and game length, either get Bulwark and camp at enemy valor flag, or just camp at valor flag while Mulching. You can assist in taking side portals, but don't stay at flanks unless absolutely necessary, your potential is somewhat wasted there.

III. Game dynamics and support mentalité

"What are you doing, ffs!!! Trying to take on that giant 1v1?! You do no damage, dude!" (c) doggu

"Sed, why so low hp? Why so shit items? Are you noob?" (c) McLoover

"OMG!!! Do I have a noob Sed on my team?" (c) Iz_

"IN1, you should never pick QoT again!" (c) iamKira

"Maaaaan! I cannot hold two portals alone!" (c) renz0kuken

Be forewarned, you are likely to hear much worse things in noob/mid games, where the players aren't exactly renowned due to their skill and knowledge. All those guys I quote are undeniably pro, and have a firm grasp of general game mechanics. Still, people will get frustrated and irritated by your fragility and, ahem, 'uselessness' (the latter of which is an illusion, of course, but who cares?). Thus, the main virtue of any dedicated support is patience. However, there are some objective problems, rooted in game dynamics, any support-oriented playstyle will face. I intend to cover them to a degree in this section.

A. Direct/burst damage

Sedna: The ability to momentarily deal large amounts of damage is probably the most crucial aspect of DG combat mechanics. The only way a Sedna can actually contribute to the team in this respect is by leveling up Pounce at levels 1-10. Pounce is a strong nuke for a general: no debuffs, granted, but 1000 damage at level 10 is good. Postponing Pounce to end-game levels = decreasing its effect drastically due to gradual hp stacking by opponents. At level 10, 1000 damage is a freaking strong nuke; at 15, it is still passable but much less efficient; at 20, you will most likely tickle your opponents with it. Strong early Pounce is the way to mitigate otherwise weak Sedna levels 6-10, and, more importantly, to help your team in ganks. Playing late Pounce may be viable in 2v2, but 3v3 I won't ever risk it. The fact is, it will net you some kills.

Sedna's AoE problem can be remedied in a number of ways late game (see artifacts sub-section in Sedna section above), when it becomes truly relevant, but early game your only option is Nature's Reckoning. While an interesting item that helps you farm, sometimes works wonders in PvP and adds a random unpredictable damage factor (always nice vs skilled calculating opponents), I don't think it's essential, unless you are fighting a minion-heavy matchup -- that's where I can justify its taking a hp item slot, the dps increase will be too significant to ignore, glitch or no glitch. Otherwise, survival is a far more pressing matter for Sedna in 3v3, and getting NR in place - and for a price - of, say, Nimoth's is unwise.

QoT: QoT is the exact opposite. Probably the best AoE skill in game, but pathetic burst damage. A skilled QoT that doesn't get SW III (and the only way a skilled QoT will ever get it is by misclicking) can do a maximum of 1125 damage by GS IV > SW II. That's pathetic for a 2 skill combo. The situation changes late game, when QoT has a lot of minions and catas+giants are out. GS IV in a creep wave hurts. A lot. Overall, a QoT gets yelled at a lot less than a Sedna for being unable to deal significant damage: her skills are all long-range and very convenient, and early game that ranged Cleave attack in packed form makes a lot of difference, melting monks, creeps, Rook towers and DGs at once.

B. "Low hp, shit items"

Both Sedna and QoT will get Cur1, unless there is a Reg on the same team. Frequently, they will also get FS1 and Cur2. The total cost of those upgrades is 5600, which is roughly equivalent to a decent kit comprised of Vlemish + Banded + Unbreakables + Nimoth + Scalemail. So yes, you do gimp yourself to the extreme for the sake of greater common good, and skilled opponents will try to take advantage of that. Good teammates will buy you some basic armor items if they see you are focused non-stop (and you should be), but counting on it in PUG games is usually utopian. For some reason, most players (especially those belonging to the huge "high win %, mediocre skill player sticking to the UB, with a possible Shield III-whoring Oak alternate" caste) will rather let you die, then blame you for being a noob, than buy something for you. Some people will also get genuinely irritated if you won't have locks or sigils. They aren't evil, they just don't understand. What happens is a direct result of failure to comprehend basic game dynamics: they take those cit upgrades for granted, generally assuming you had a lot of money (and why not, if THEY had a lot of money, eh?), but you've probably spent it on something stupid, because it's obvious you are noob and don't just Spit > right-click or Shield > tp 24/7.  

C. Teammate-dependent attitude

You depend on your main carry. A strong carry player + a good support will have a much better synergy than just two good damage-dealer DG players will. In 3v3, this principle is especially relevant. You will win a lot of matches if you find a good carry partner. Nothing to be ashamed of: you aren't a parasite, you are a symbiont, and smart players will understand it quickly, provided you do your job right. Personally, I have a list of recommended/not exactly recommended carry players (the recommended list includes some mids, not only the likes of Kira or ppapanek). The corollary of this principle is your playstyle should be more team-oriented than your average carry's. Communication is the key: pinging when needed, typing about intentions/things done/upgrades bought in chat, playing the game zoomed out are all essential. Also, don't rush in to kill, but rather assist (some people find this rule very hard to obey). It's not a competition, for God's sake! As Sedna, I usually steal a lot of kills because Pounce is such a great finisher: it's not a big deal, as long as you aren't egotistic and save the stolen kill money for creeps or J-Treads your UB needs.

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January 12, 2011 2:09:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I was definetly refering to the image. Wip is such a doucher.

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January 12, 2011 3:23:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Wip is such a doucher.

While that may be true to a degree, I must stress those charming comments are by OMG_UserBanned (the guy with the , remember?), and Wip_ actually opposed this kind of talk strongly.

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January 12, 2011 5:07:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG__IN1,
Wip is such a doucher.

While that may be true to a degree, I must stress those charming comments are by OMG_UserBanned (the guy with the , remember?), and Wip_ actually opposed this kind of talk strongly.

Oh well there both douchers

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January 19, 2011 1:53:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

A major re-write of QoT section. Some relatively minor updates to Sed section (artifacts re-thought, role according to level breakdown). Started a general section on supporting in DG and its problems, both objective and subjective. 

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January 19, 2011 9:43:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Written a first draft of a general section on desired support attitude (I've seen very skilled players fail in support role, since they don't have the right mindset), and provided some analysis of subjective/objective support playstyle problems.

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January 21, 2011 2:19:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Added a note on unique cost:efficiency progression aberrations for QoT skills (GS I and GS II cost the same; 50% cooldown increase from SW II to SW III).

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January 21, 2011 1:57:03 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Finally got around to reading the QoT portion of your post - very well thought out write up.  Thanks!

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January 21, 2011 10:52:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks for the complimentary remark. Unfortunately, I don't think it can be used as a noob-friendly guide (I assume too close an acquaintance with game mechanics for my potential reader), but since Sed and QoT are underplayed, maybe some experienced players willing to learn a new DG (or a new DG subtype, as playing any other DG requires a radically different approach from Sed/QoT) will find it useful.

Remotely related: wanted to see SaulTigh play Sedna, but it seems to me he prefers to play Rook these days  A pity, since he was hailed as the only other pro player that mains Sedna, besides Hedgie. It's weird, but I've seen highly skilled players play bad Sednas (basic mistakes like Pouncing at will, having monks attached and following a mile behind them instead of Shifting them, etc.). And... yeah, I have yet to see a pro QoT on the other team. Well, I'm sure I can talk Cow into playing some, but it won't be a real QoT, it will be a big ugly nasty CowbuttQoT, and we all understand the difference between the two very well!

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January 22, 2011 1:40:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Unfortunately, I don't think it can be used as a noob-friendly guide

well... the odds are that there aren't a large number of new players reading this one.  Heavy on the math, which is great for us seasoned folks.  Anyway, good stuff.

edit - you could always write a new players guide to qot if you want, though.  Break this out into 2 separate posts for sed and qot as intermediate guides.  All up to you.

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January 22, 2011 2:32:46 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

edit - you could always write a new players guide to qot if you want, though.  Break this out into 2 separate posts for sed and qot as intermediate guides.  All up to you.

Yeah, I'll think about a possible 'QoT for newbies' re-write of QoT section. For Sedna, the job was done by Hedgie's definitive guide, which is very comprehensive and quite noob-friendly (though it has certain sections discussing mechanics).

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January 25, 2011 10:36:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Another update to the Sedna section. Buying priorities order and some thoughts on early Girdle benefits. When I think about it, this build is a compromise between Blood-Silence and Cloak-Pounce. It is not as specialized as either, but I find it consistently strong 1-15 (with only a slight relative decrease in power very late game). The strongest levels are 6-10, IMHO, but 1-5 and 11-15 are also very good, so it's a more universal build, I think, and better suited for PUG games. Of course, if tomorrow Cow comes and tells me, for example: "Well, IN1, you are so fucking amazing, and your Sedna is soooo much sexier than Pacov's! Let's play two-man premade all the time, I'll be a badass QoT and you'll be my Sed support bitch! We'll coordinate our actions via Vent and beat the crap out of 'em enemies! Hahahaha!", I'll adapt and change the build to something much more QoT-supportive.

The bottom line is that I suspect Blood-Silence is a perfect Thundercles-supportive build, but instructing young aspiring Sednas to take it in PUG games is cruel They will get allergic to Sedna and switch to UB and Oak!

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January 26, 2011 1:33:15 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I’m still struggling with your thoughts on sed here, bub. Why level up pounce if you are rarely going to use it? I don’t really want to point at our game the other day but it’s the only reference I have. Everyone has bad days but even though it was stacked in your favor I just felt like this sed was really ineffective. You are basically describing a “no heal” build here. To me “no heal” means no heal until about level 10 because at that point what else is she going to use her points on. The only point that differs in this build from a “no heal” is you getting level 1 heal early. The main reason to go a no/low heal build is to pounce the shite out of people. If you are saving the pounce for that pounce-silence-pounce kill you could still do the same thing with a lower level pounce. So my thoughts are if you are only going to pounce on occasion and not going to be able to heal anyone effectively until later game then all you really are from level 1-10 is a healing wind.

About the Girdle thing, I don’t know what level you plan to get this at but to even consider it you are assuming a bunch of kills by then and to construct a build around the assumption of kills is also not a good idea. If you don’t get the kills you thought you weregoing to get your whole build is screwed. I use to make that same mistake. Now I base all my item builds on ZERO kills.

I would still like to play you again sometime. Help me change my mind.

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January 26, 2011 9:48:15 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Why level up pounce if you are rarely going to use it? I don’t really want to point at our game the other day but it’s the only reference I have. Everyone has bad days but even though it was stacked in your favor I just felt like this sed was really ineffective.

I know memory is a tricky and selective mechanism, but that's just a bit over the top... Are you talking about that old game where I was a noob playing Hedgie's build and you were some weird no-Heal Sed? Well, we've played another, much more recent game since then, where I was Sed, and you were Occ. I remeber doggu on my team (whose gf fell down the stairs, so he couldn't fight for 15 mins, recall it now?) and Rav3nix on yours, but cannot remember who the 3rd teammate on each team was. If 6 kills : 0 deaths is ineffective for Sed, you have unrealistic criteria I have no replay saved, sadly, since it ended in Critical Gamestate Error, but it was a good game on my part (and a mediocre game on my teammates': doggu is usually much better). Sorry, pal, I don't mind constructive critique/dialogue, but telling me 6:0 w/ a support (I highly doubt your Occ had 6 kills and I DO REMEMBER you have died twice to me) is INEFFECTIVE... Hmmm...

Edit: Hope you don't take offense, I'm usually very sceptical about my own skill in this game and never put myself on the pedestal, but my performance was clearly superior to everyone else's that game (and, generally speaking, I rarely perform bad as Sed these days, even when my team loses). If that wasn't enough to convince you, I highly doubt something else will.

 

 

 

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January 27, 2011 1:44:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

HAHA yes someone’s memory is very selective is this case. Yes, I’m talking about the stacked game that should have been easy rape for you guys that we played the other night. If I recall correctly it’s the same game that ****BOTH**** me a doggu took about a FIVE minute break (yes, 5 minute not 15) interesting enough, we had real life problems at the exact SAME time. I was even gone longer than him at the start of my break and got back doggu was only gone for like 30 more seconds. I got back and you were ready to give up because doggu “refuses to play.” So it was 2v2 that whole time and you were ready to give up. I hadn’t even hit the field yet. When I got back I wondered why the game was not over. At that point I really thought you guys just sucked ass or I thought doggu was being a gentleman and sitting out until I got back. I even warned in all chat “BRB sry.” Recall??  I don’t even want to talk about  how you two didn’t have enough sense to lock a portal without doggu there but yes, I wish I had that replay too, so someone’s memory wasn’t so selective.  Doggu was even bitching you guys out in all chat because all the two of you had to do was lock a single portal. I guess my guys seemed to do fine without me for the 5 minutes but let Doggu take a break at the SAME TIME and everything falls apart….hmmmmm.

Your third was Green-One as Occ and our third was some UB that I can’t recall either but he didn’t even know what j-treads were and he never bought any gear above the 1500 ones and was 2-3, or more, levels behind doggu’s UB the whole game so I would definitely say a very new player.

Yes, you did get some kills, congrats, but that’s what I’m trying to tell you bub its not because your 1000 pounce. You can easily STEAL a kill with a 400-600 pounce if that’s all you are waiting for. If you are proud of those kills then fine but they don’t matter, whoever was going to die was going to die anyways.  It would have been way better to let doggu finish half those kills than to STEAL them. And yes you did kill me 2 times but only because I started ignoring you halfway through the game. Do you recall the second death at mid when I was going 1v1 against Green-one’s Occ and you showed up and I still continued to fight not even acknowledging you. I had already sigiled and should have easily backed off. It was basically a gimmie. I just wanted to kill green one again 1v1. Anyways, once I knew you weren’t going to pounce unless I was at around 2k hp so you could do the pounce-silence-pounce kill I started focusing more on having fun doing the 1v1’s testing out my MCP Occ vs a blood Occ. Usually a high pounce sed scares me a little but a high pounce sed that’s not going to pounce is not much to worry about.

I'm usually very sceptical about my own skill in this game and never put myself on the pedestal, but my performance was clearly superior to everyone else's that game (and, generally speaking, I rarely perform bad as Sed these days, even when my team loses).

Now this is just funny, selective memory at its best. If you think this is true I would hate to see you on a bad day. This is your problem. You blame your losses on everyone else instead of really looking at the way you are playing. In all your posts I pick up on this, “well we lost because our third” ”Oh that’s why I’m dying as rook because people don’t know how to save me  “well if so-and-so wasn’t so stupid and knew anything about high level play dynamics then he would understand why I am so weak and just cowering behind him and we wouldn’t have lost.” It’s bullshit, man. I’m trying to be straight with you here because I doubt any of your buddies are (And if you think so-and-so is lying about your buddies talking shit behind your back. We’ll I’ve heard it from more than a few people also.---“Can’t say much for his play but at least he has theories.” That’s a whole other story though.) I actually had to watch the replay again because I rarely saw you the whole game. I really thought you had gone with a whole different build and was disappointed to see that you actually did go with this one. With this POUNCE build I was expecting to get pounced way more. You take this whole support/carry stuff way too far. Half the game you were doing exactly what I described in my previous post---nothing more than a healing wind just outa sight and would only fight if your teammate was there and the opponent was already weak. And “stick on your carry’s ass” well you did that perfectly because everywhere doggu went you were sure to tele right behind him even if it meant abandoning HP flag for no reason.

I know your definition of “not performing badly” is a game where you don’t die but I hate to tell you, you can still perform horribly in a game that you never die in.

 And again, I’d be happy to play you anytime. Stacked or not.

 Oh and why would I take offence? We won.

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January 27, 2011 2:09:30 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Play again - post a replay.  Replay's are very nice for seeing builds in action. 

edit - that's one of things I've always meant to do for my assassin erb guide, but always forget - replays with the particular play style is very helpful.

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January 27, 2011 2:30:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah, I agree with Pacov on this... Trying to rate a build in a game, which went differently than usual (2 people afk'ing?) might confuse even good players and force them make strange decisions ("Ub afk? Who will kill enemies now? Who should level up?", etc). Furthermore less teamworking, etc.

As about IN1 performance... Well I don't know... Didn't see anything bad (at least in my games) or I am just too blinded (which I hope is not). Actually I think he is really good player (+ valuable strategies). Everyone has less successful games due to various reasons (sleepy, drunk, tired, busy, etc).

Finally managed to read this summary    Amazing! Karma for you

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January 27, 2011 2:38:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

 

HAH. yeah I'm all for that. I did get a little outa hand but this stuff is starting to annoy me:

The bottom line is that I suspect Blood-Silence is a perfect Thundercles-supportive build, but instructing young aspiring Sednas to take it in PUG games is cruel They will get allergic to Sedna and switch to UB and Oak!

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January 27, 2011 3:44:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

@brasher:

Only because I respect and kind of like you on a personal level, I'll reply to this not too articulate rant (was forced to read some sentences twice):

1. The fact is, you won because (and only because) doggu was afk during the very late game (all creeps out, all towers destroyed), not during later mid, like you were. We refrained from pushing too hard, while you took advantage of doggu's absence quite shamelessly by continuously locking our portals 3v2. We had an enormous advantage prior to doggu going afk. Also, doggu gave no explanation as to why is he afk (had to help his gf, naturally), so I had a suspicion he's in one of his darker moods and just refuses to play with Green (doggu trash-talked him non-stop). Do you think we were seriously motivated to go on with this nonsense?

2. How was it stacked in our favor? Yes, I know you like conspiracy theories, like me always playing on stacked teams, always blaming someone else for my losses, etc. But let's get strictly logical. Short version of your rant is: I'm a terrible player; Green is a terrible player (and I have to agree he wasn't at his best during that game). Okay. Now, you are a good player, no doubt about that; Rav is a good player, little doubt about that, either. Cannot remember who was your third, but he wasn't amazing, yeah. So, in your opinion, doggu >>>>>>>>> brasher + rav3nix? Interesting

3. I know your definition of “not performing badly” is a game where you don’t die but I hate to tell you, you can still perform horribly in a game that you never die in.

Nah. My definition in Sed's case is: never die; assist as much as possible, wherever and whenever possible; do your healing/silencing/finishing off duties. In that order of priorities. Your definition with all DGs is the same: be a badass (i. e., try to kill as much as possible). Well, in that particular game, brash, I was about twice as badass as you were, and 2 of my kills (one against you, buddy) were 1v1, which should never happen in Sed's case trying to solo an overlvl'd Occ. Yeah, a shame you fell for a simple Sigil > Bishop resummon > Pounce > Silence > AA to death trick, but that's probably because you had some pressing personal issues at the moment, no doubt.

4. Anyway, this is a fruitless argument without a replay. Again, I don't think I'm a great player (for example, I still lack map awareness sometimes), but I'm quite good with Sed and QoT and quite persistent on getting better. Your opinion on the matter does not bother me seriously. I mean, I respect it, since you are an experienced player, but I'd rather trust my own eyes and logic, not to mention objective facts, than your over-emotional rants. Sorry to disappoint 

End of discussion. I'm not going to refer to that game again, and I amicably suggest you change subject, too. I'd hate to see my strategy thread locked by Pacov, you know

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January 27, 2011 3:58:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

@brasher:

did get a little outa hand but this stuff is starting to annoy me:

Well, forgive my rudeness, I don't give a rat's ass about you being annoyed by my thoughts on strategy and/or jokes. If you want to challenge my strategy approach, be constructive and objective about it. I'm not forcing my build on you, we are a democratic community. Now, if my sense of humor is bothering you, that's understandable, but it's your personal issue you really shouldn't go public with. Just pm me if you are annoyed next time, don't post nonsensical semi-flames. If you have a constructive critique (with supporting evidence, from this point on I'm not arguing with you without a replay that can be evaluated/analyzed anymore), that's another story, you are welcome to post it.

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January 27, 2011 5:40:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Heh.

@1. Selective memory again, bub, because we were gone at the SAME time. But anyways my point of bringing it up was to make you reevaluate your whole thoughts about the main carry/support stuff.  That was the whole point of the discussion a while back about the badass thing. I guess it’s in your nature to play a strictly support role but you need to stop relying so much on one player on your team.  I don’t even care about how the last part of the game went down my thoughts were about everything that happened before both of us left. You played exactly how you are describing in your OP. Never pouncing unless to kill. Never healing. Pretty much just hanging out. So my evaluation is playing a POUNCE build like it’s a pure support build = mediocre at best and it goes back to my original question about “why level up pounce if you are only going to use it in a situation that could easily been satisfied with a lower level pounce?”

2. Doggu (great), IN1 still forming opinions about but (not bad), Green-One (not bad maybe off day) vs. Me (not bad), Raven (not bad) and our UB (not horrible just really new..so that = horrible in this game, sorry if you are out the bud). So would I say doggu > ME plus Raven? NO. But I would say Doggu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our UB and the others should have just canceled each other out. If you can’t see the stack on that then I can see why you feel that I have “conspiracy theories” and don’t understand what I am talking about when I point at some of your games.

 3. Hah. My definition of badass is far from just getting kills. It’s a shame that you feel that killing me while I was on sigil never touching you and still chasing Occ to be a 1v1 victory.

 4. Agreed. No replay. No point in discussing. I doubt you heard any of my points.  

Do I think the build is viable? Sure, for fun no problem. I think anyone who is going to use it needs to be way more aggressive than described. No point in wasting skill points in full pounce to only save it for occasional use. You be better off leveling up heal early and helping out the team with that more, just like everyone else was trying to tell you at start of discussion. 

And once again I’m open to play you any time. Bring whoever you need….Or…..or even better stay and play me in a whatever balanced game. We both know there have been many opportunities for that but for some strange reason never happen.  

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January 27, 2011 6:53:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

We both know there have been many opportunities for that but for some strange reason never happen.  

All right, I feel I have to answer this one. This will be my last reply to you on the subject of my skill/lack thereof. It's not a thread about my personal qualities, sorry.

Conspiracy theories again Look, I live in Israel. Eh, sorry for not always being awake and there for you at 4 AM, when you are online. Now, how to put it mildly... your challenge is not exactly at the very top of my current to-do list, all right? No offense taken, I hope. If I'd challenge you to a DG duel at 4 AM o'clock, you'll reply with: "LMAO, get a life, dude!". I'm much more restrained, as you can see. Appreciate it, please  I play with whoever is online ATM. Not many American players are awake all night long, granted. For example, I've played Cow a week or so ago, and it was our first game together. Did he think I was dodging him? Hmmm... Well, if sleeping at night, having a work schedule and a personal life = dodging strong players, then yes, by all means, I'm dodging the glorious US players, because I'm such a pussy.

Also, please try to understand, it's not personal, but... I've played with/vs enough top-tier (or close to top-tier) players to grow somewhat appreciative of my humble skills. I can make some comparisons now. Again, I don't overestimate my ability, just trying to be objective and hoping others will do the same.

About stacked teams and other nonsense: please take a look at my game list during last two weeks or so before making such claims. Which game here was terribly unbalanced? Apparently, I have no problem playing either with or vs Kira, with or vs ppapanek, with or vs Zen, with or vs Renz/Defender. But you insinuate I'm afraid to play vs you?  Cut the crap, please. Each and every of these guys can succesfully 1v3 three brashers (say, brasher_01, brasher_02, brasher_03). You are a grown-up, don't act like you are half my age, pretty please.

Let's wrap this up, I'm not enjoying this immensely disappointing, and ultimately pointless, dialogue. Also, please refrain from any personal contact with me in the future, either here on the forums or in game ('business', i. e. administrative issues -- for example, tourney-related, are all right, of course). Thank you in advance!

Last update on the topic:

I've refused to play vs brasher this morning (my morning, that is). Why? Upon joining the lobby, I appeared on Zen_God's team and brasher said: "It's okay. Go!". Apparently, the purpose was to put me in a no-win situation. If we win (my evaluation was that game would not last more than 30 minutes) -> "Well, dude, as I said, you play stacked teams only. You should have defeated us in 10 minutes. Pffft!" If we lose (highly improbable outcome) -> "See, you have a lot to learn about Sedna. Even Zen couldn't carry such a horrible player through." I'm done with my exams a long time ago, brash. Whoever thinks I play stacked only, is invited to take a look at my game list (honestly, AFAIK, brasher is the only one that thinks so). I'd rather not play brasher at all than eat another pile of shit from the guy I once respected. Luckily, we are rarely online simultaneously, so no big sacrifice for both of us.

All right. This topic is done with, hopefully.

 

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January 28, 2011 5:40:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Added a bit of math for those sceptical about the possibility of getting Girdle relatively early + a couple of points to artifact/level breakdown sub-sections.

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January 28, 2011 2:58:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I wonder if Stormbringer works on the cleave of Girdle of the Giants. 

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January 28, 2011 3:20:34 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
I wonder if Stormbringer works on the cleave of Girdle of the Giants. 

remind me... storm bringer - that's the one that cast's silence for 5 sec as well?  If so, I had quite a bit of fun with that in some filthy rich games with sedna.  wonder if I'm thinking of something else...

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January 28, 2011 4:11:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_pacov,



Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
reply 98
I wonder if Stormbringer works on the cleave of Girdle of the Giants. 


remind me... storm bringer - that's the one that cast's silence for 5 sec as well?  If so, I had quite a bit of fun with that in some filthy rich games with sedna.  wonder if I'm thinking of something else...

Your thinking of death bringer.

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