Alternative support character builds summary

(Sedna and QoT)

By on January 2, 2011 7:36:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dlarimit

Join Date 10/2010
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This post summarizes some of my remarks and observations from different threads, so much of the info presented here may naturally appear somewhat redundant. I am 100% sure there are better Sednas and QoTs than me, but the scarcity of dedicated support players that can actually re-think, analyze and formulate things, as well as me actually getting pretty good with both characters (at least, according to half a dozen top-tier players I play with/against on a relatively regular basis -- maybe they are just nice to me, dunno) can somewhat justify me, and not one of the better folks, posting this... I hope   

I. Sedna

My major issues with current pro builds are: (1) disproportional prominence of Silence; (2) too much emphasis on leveling up Heal; (3) Pounce getting neglected/postponed (at least, in Hedgie's and Hedgie-inspired builds); (4) IG being considered "a selfish skill" and "a newb trap". In particular:

(1) Since practice > theory, and I always get Silence I at 6-8 in skilled matches, I'm revising the statement I made in my previous Sedna-related post  Silence I is a must-have at levels 6-8, while Silence II and III aren't a priority and should be postponed until very late game.

(2) Heal should never be a priority after the very first point. Heal I is a must-have early game for emergencies, Heal III is nice to have afterwards due to debuff removal, but I wouldn't call it crucial. Sedna's main source of healing should be HW-enhanced bishops, not her own Heals. Keeping Heal level minimal until mid game also ensures you can always help a focused teammate when needed. +600 hp may not sound like a big deal, but it's an emergency-only skill and it is absolutely adequate to its purpose: preventing early kills by the opposing team.

(3) To quote Hedgie, Pounce is "one of the worst offensive abilities in the game. It has no debuffs, no AoE, you can't use it while you are chasing". On the other hand, it is a fast interrupt with a great cooldown, a decent range (9) and damage, plus you can (and, IMHO, should!) max it out qute early. Its most important advantage is its being Sedna's only decent source of damage, and being able to deal some concentrated damage is a critical quality in skilled 3v3 matches.

(4) I am firmly convinced IG I is a critical early skill, unless you don't level Pounce and have no intention to actively assist your teammates in getting some kills. Besides a great +10 hps bonus, it gives you a +0.3 y/s, which is just enough to keep up with Erbs and UBs early game. Chase and AA until down to 600-800 hp > Pounce II/III got me a lot of early kills. No, not against noobs. Even experienced people tend not to expect concentrated damage from Sedna, especially at level 6-7. That said, IG II and III are selfish skills and newb traps, and should either be postponed or never taken.

Favor: BotF

1. Heal I

2. HW I

3. IG I

4. Pounce I

5. HW II

6. Pounce II

7. Pounce III

8. Silence I

9. CH (generals)/Heal II (no generals)

10. Pounce IV

11. Heal II/Heal III

12. Heal III/MP I

13. MP I/MP II

14. MP II/Heal IV

15. MP III

16. Silence II

17. Silence III

18. Life's Child

19. IG II

20. IG III

Items: 1 helm (Vlemish > Hungarling, if possible), 4 hp items (3 armors + Unbreakables). Sedna is not about skill-spamming. You spam only Pounce. Silence and Heal are saved for specific circumstances. Start with Monks, then at WR3 Cur1 (possibly also FS1) and Banded, then, ASAP, Bishops.

Priority order: (1) Banded; (2) Nimoth; (3) Bishops/High Priests (another general on your team); (4) Unbreakables; (5) Hauberk; (6) Vlemish; (7) Banded > Girdle of Giants; (8) Siege Demolishers; (9) upgrades (Nimoth > Groffling, Vlemish > Hungarling, etc.). Yes, may sound a bit radical, but that's what works best for this build. You don't need a lot of mana. You don't spam anything, all your skills are strictly situational (Pounce is a situational finisher/interrupt skill, not a fire-at-will nuke). Your strongest levels are probably 6-10. You are going to score a handful of kills, if you use Pounce correctly. In a skilled team, the allies will burden you only with Cur1, so you will be able to get the Girdle relatively early. The general principle in DG is: buy early, don't save. However, I believe early Girdle makes this build at least twice as effective: immense hp/hps boost, great help at farming due to 100% Cleave property, significant dps increase for the already heavy-hitting DG. Save instead of upgrading to Groffling+Hungarling and of buying Demolishers ASAP, it will pay off.

If you are sceptical as to whether it is practically possible, a bit of elementary math. Usually, I have Groffling, Hungarling, Siege Dems by later mid/early late game. Banded > Groffling = 4760 g; Vlemish > Hungarling = 4100 g ; Siege Dems = 2050 g. Grand total = 10910 g. Banded > Girdle of Giants = 12560 g. You need only 1650 g more if you don't upgrade and don't get Dems ASAP.

Orb of Defiance is not a bad option, as it's very strong on Sed (less than 1/3 hp left>Orb>Heal with Life's Child active is enough to get those gank-happy DAs frustrated). However, I don't think it's worth it, in a long run. Having 3 consumable slots is more important than an additional safety mechanism and a +500 passive bonus to health and armor: you are already safe and not easily killable, while dropping locks (or, worse, sigils) for OoD is usually a short-sighted decision. If you do get OoD, be sure to take Life's Child at 16: while not a super-great skill, it's actually very good with OoD.

I almost never take Nature's Reckoning. In 3v3, some hp stacking will be a much wiser investment, generally speaking. See section III below for additional details. 

Artifacts: Unfortunately, only passive effect (non-useable) artifacts are really viable for Sedna in a skilled match. Having locks, tp scrolls and sigils should always take precedence over everything else. That really limits Sedna's possibilities as far as artifact choice is concerned, in the priority order: (1) Girdle of Giants is the best passive artifact option: get it ASAP, if the game is going well for your team, and for you in particular, you can get it mid-game, if you don't upgrade armor pieces and helm (i. e., don't go Vlemish > Hungaling, Banded > Groffling, etc.) and don't get Siege Dems; (2) Stormbringer (cooldowns halved with a flag + MP III: -47%) is your artifact helm that has a great synergy to MP III; (3) Bulwark: an universal staple, so it's a viable option. However, I don't think it's a high priority artifact for Sedna. If you have 16k and want to get a second artifact, wait a bit and get Stormbringer.

If you are willing to risk dropping sigils or locks, you should bear in mind the main purpose of getting artifacts for Sedna is to compensate for her two main weaknesses late game: lack of AoE and poor AA speed. Thus, you have two good cheap options. (1) Orb of Veiled Storms. Cheap, good AA speed boost, gets late game hp regen through the roof, provides a decent anti-creep AoE (Orb > Heal IV = 700 damage in 10 y radius, enough to deal with a creepwave, save giants). (2) Cloak of Flames. Costs 2k more, but both AoE and AA speed boost are better. Also solves potential late game mana problems that might arise in long skirmishes with 1 helm only.  

Role: This Sedna build excels both at tanking/aura buffing and at setting up/securing kills. Of course, since Sedna's tankability relies exclusively on Bishops, they should be prioritized. This Sedna fares well against any matchup, with the obvious exception of Rook (against whom, I believe, she's also significantly better than Silence-Heal Sedna). In short, it's as good a compromise as I could find between strong Sedna ("Fight, goddamit! You do no damage, dude!") and smart Sedna ("Silence that freaking Oak already, dude!"/"Heal, heal, heal, dude! I just wanted to get the kill, so I followed their Reg to the crystal!"). Everyone will be happy with your performance, with the important exception of your enemies. You'll be able to support your main carry and get (steal!) a solid number of kills yourself. Doggu will love you, Kira will love you, Nomilarac will love you, Renz will love you. Hell, maybe even Nnnils will love you, and that's a bold claim to make! Only Pacov will hate you, but that goes without saying.

Levels 1-5: You are quite strong and can afford to take some risks. Most opponents will think they can take on you 1v1, try to use it to your advantage and yellow deny them some flags by big-ass outtanking. What I like to do early game to maximize Sed's tanking potential is to get Monks and run to contest mid ASAP. Regardless of the outcome, split your Monks between hp and mana lanes, and run back to the shop. You should have ~550 g by this point, so buy Banded, then go hp (or mana, if needed). You lose a tiny bit of experience this way, but gain a lot of staying power, so it's a good trade-off.

Levels 6-10: If you play your cards right, you'll get several kills here (800 damage at level 7 is not something people will expect from a support DG). However, be aware you are quite fragile (gimped from purchasing Cur1, and possibly also Cur2 and FS1). If your teammates are aware of game dynamics, they will protect you, so you are in no great danger. Still, I suggest always carrying a sigil starting with level 6, when you start chasing and finishing.

Levels 11-20: Your kit should be complete by level 11, so no need to be overly careful, you can tank if needed. Try to stick to your main carry's arse, especially if he goes deep into enemy's territory. Needless to say, you are the main locker.

II. QoT

My major issues with current pro builds are: (1) unnecessarily Mulch-oriented at early levels; (2) too little priority assigned to SW by most/some super-pro players getting SW III; (3) the basic concept of QoT as main carry is flawed. In detail:

(1) Mulch I is a costly (700 mana, 2 skill points), slow (cast times, summon appearance delay), inconvenient (mad clicking obligatory) way to heal 750 hp. It should be taken only as a pre-requisite to Mulch II and III, which are, indeed, great skills. Getting it at 5 (and investing another point in Summon Shambler!) is a mistake certain top-tier players manage to get away with only due to their exceptional personal skill. It's highly inefficient, and definitely not worth getting, unless you like a challenge. Period. 

(2) Spike Wave I and II are great and should be taken ASAP (at 5 and 10). On the other hand, Spike Wave III should never be taken due to whopping 50% cooldown increase.

(3) There is little doubt that in a skilled player's hands, QoT can function as a main carry/tank. However, it's evident it is not her optimal role. Obviously, currently fashionable Mulch-happy pro QoT builds are heavily lure/kill-oriented. Well, what can I say... I'm sure it's possible to drive a nail with, say, an electronic microscope, but I'd rather use a  , thank you. I don't think gimping oneself as a support for what essentially is a one-trick pony (luring, then getting a kill due to early Mulch) is a fortunate idea. If you can pull it off -- more power to you, but presenting it as the greatest QoT playstyle ever is a bit of a stretch.

Favor: BotF

1. BS I

2. GS I

3. SAVE

4. GS II

5. SW I

6. SAVE

7. BS II + GS III (this is the point you should have enough mana regen to consistently cast 560 mana BS) 

8. SAVE

9. SAVE

10. BS III + BS IV + GS IV + SW II (at this point, you should maximize your BS potential, as alpha nukes damage potential peaks here)

11. SAVE

12. SAVE

13. SAVE

14. SAVE

15. Entourage I-III + Tribute + GoT / Shambler I + Mulch I-III + GoT (go the second route only if you feel you need to tank a lot late game: an undesirable scenario, but possible)

16-20: Get Shamblers I-IV (or II-IV + Entourage I) in any case, either for a hefty increasy of mostly anti-structure dps or for easier Mulching. 

Items: 2 helms (Vlemish, then Vlemish + Plenor, then Hungarling + Vlemish), 3 hp items (2 armors + Unbreakables). Start with Monks, then at WR3 Cur1 (possibly also FS1) and Vlemish, then Unbreakables.

Getting Magus Rod instead of Plenor is an interesting possibility. It gives an additional hp item slot, but is inconvenient both in that it adds additional microing to an already microing-heavy DG, and in that it occupies one consumable slot. Overall, I think it's preferable to run with two helms, but certain circumstances can surely dictate otherwise. For example, if you get Bulwark at level 15+, you probably should drop locks and get Magus Rod instead.

Artifacts: QoT has no particular weaknesses late game, so artifacts should serve to augment her strengths, instead. Bulwark should be your top priority: 40% permanent damage reduction in unpacked form makes late-game QoT insanely powerful, practically invincible. Bracelet of Rage is also an interesting option, but as it takes up a consumable slot, I cannot really recommend it.

Role: Levels 1-10: You get at least Cur1 (sometimes also FS1 and Cur2), so you are quite fragile (though not as fragile as your opponents tend to think) and will be focused a lot. Play it very conservatively. Stay back, shield your main carry/lane partner, ground spike when needed (learn to pull off the GS cancel trick to make the enemies run away, as mana is scarce), do not forget to spike wave the ganked DGs. Assist in pushing the corner towers with GS. Either learn QoT's skills mana cost* by heart ASAP, or write them down: you cannot see BS costs while unpacked, and vice versa.

*) Please note QoT is the only DG to have two serious skill cost:efficiency ratio progression aberrations. Most skills are somewhat linear in this respect, e. g. Shield I is 400 mana, Shield II is 500 mana, Shield III is 600 mana, and Shield IV is 700 mana. There are some exceptions to this rule (for example, Bite or Boulder Roll), but they don't break the linear progression cardinally. QoT, however, has: (1) the same mana cost of 500 for both GS I and GS II, and (2) a sudden cooldown increase from 10 s for SW II to 15 s for SW III. These features (or glitches?) are unique and should be taken into account by any serious QoT player.

Levels 11-15: Your role changes radically. Start to demolish mid while your teammates begin to push portals. Be cautious and methodical, synchronize your ground spiking with creep waves. You'll both destroy mid towers and get to 15 very quickly this way. I don't think this strategy can be countered if you have decent teammates. If 2 opponents will try to gank you, they'll lose one of the portals, and 1v1 no one will stop you, given GS insane radius.

Levels 16-20: Depending on the route taken at 15 and game length, either get Bulwark and camp at enemy valor flag, or just camp at valor flag while Mulching. You can assist in taking side portals, but don't stay at flanks unless absolutely necessary, your potential is somewhat wasted there.

III. Game dynamics and support mentalité

"What are you doing, ffs!!! Trying to take on that giant 1v1?! You do no damage, dude!" (c) doggu

"Sed, why so low hp? Why so shit items? Are you noob?" (c) McLoover

"OMG!!! Do I have a noob Sed on my team?" (c) Iz_

"IN1, you should never pick QoT again!" (c) iamKira

"Maaaaan! I cannot hold two portals alone!" (c) renz0kuken

Be forewarned, you are likely to hear much worse things in noob/mid games, where the players aren't exactly renowned due to their skill and knowledge. All those guys I quote are undeniably pro, and have a firm grasp of general game mechanics. Still, people will get frustrated and irritated by your fragility and, ahem, 'uselessness' (the latter of which is an illusion, of course, but who cares?). Thus, the main virtue of any dedicated support is patience. However, there are some objective problems, rooted in game dynamics, any support-oriented playstyle will face. I intend to cover them to a degree in this section.

A. Direct/burst damage

Sedna: The ability to momentarily deal large amounts of damage is probably the most crucial aspect of DG combat mechanics. The only way a Sedna can actually contribute to the team in this respect is by leveling up Pounce at levels 1-10. Pounce is a strong nuke for a general: no debuffs, granted, but 1000 damage at level 10 is good. Postponing Pounce to end-game levels = decreasing its effect drastically due to gradual hp stacking by opponents. At level 10, 1000 damage is a freaking strong nuke; at 15, it is still passable but much less efficient; at 20, you will most likely tickle your opponents with it. Strong early Pounce is the way to mitigate otherwise weak Sedna levels 6-10, and, more importantly, to help your team in ganks. Playing late Pounce may be viable in 2v2, but 3v3 I won't ever risk it. The fact is, it will net you some kills.

Sedna's AoE problem can be remedied in a number of ways late game (see artifacts sub-section in Sedna section above), when it becomes truly relevant, but early game your only option is Nature's Reckoning. While an interesting item that helps you farm, sometimes works wonders in PvP and adds a random unpredictable damage factor (always nice vs skilled calculating opponents), I don't think it's essential, unless you are fighting a minion-heavy matchup -- that's where I can justify its taking a hp item slot, the dps increase will be too significant to ignore, glitch or no glitch. Otherwise, survival is a far more pressing matter for Sedna in 3v3, and getting NR in place - and for a price - of, say, Nimoth's is unwise.

QoT: QoT is the exact opposite. Probably the best AoE skill in game, but pathetic burst damage. A skilled QoT that doesn't get SW III (and the only way a skilled QoT will ever get it is by misclicking) can do a maximum of 1125 damage by GS IV > SW II. That's pathetic for a 2 skill combo. The situation changes late game, when QoT has a lot of minions and catas+giants are out. GS IV in a creep wave hurts. A lot. Overall, a QoT gets yelled at a lot less than a Sedna for being unable to deal significant damage: her skills are all long-range and very convenient, and early game that ranged Cleave attack in packed form makes a lot of difference, melting monks, creeps, Rook towers and DGs at once.

B. "Low hp, shit items"

Both Sedna and QoT will get Cur1, unless there is a Reg on the same team. Frequently, they will also get FS1 and Cur2. The total cost of those upgrades is 5600, which is roughly equivalent to a decent kit comprised of Vlemish + Banded + Unbreakables + Nimoth + Scalemail. So yes, you do gimp yourself to the extreme for the sake of greater common good, and skilled opponents will try to take advantage of that. Good teammates will buy you some basic armor items if they see you are focused non-stop (and you should be), but counting on it in PUG games is usually utopian. For some reason, most players (especially those belonging to the huge "high win %, mediocre skill player sticking to the UB, with a possible Shield III-whoring Oak alternate" caste) will rather let you die, then blame you for being a noob, than buy something for you. Some people will also get genuinely irritated if you won't have locks or sigils. They aren't evil, they just don't understand. What happens is a direct result of failure to comprehend basic game dynamics: they take those cit upgrades for granted, generally assuming you had a lot of money (and why not, if THEY had a lot of money, eh?), but you've probably spent it on something stupid, because it's obvious you are noob and don't just Spit > right-click or Shield > tp 24/7.  

C. Teammate-dependent attitude

You depend on your main carry. A strong carry player + a good support will have a much better synergy than just two good damage-dealer DG players will. In 3v3, this principle is especially relevant. You will win a lot of matches if you find a good carry partner. Nothing to be ashamed of: you aren't a parasite, you are a symbiont, and smart players will understand it quickly, provided you do your job right. Personally, I have a list of recommended/not exactly recommended carry players (the recommended list includes some mids, not only the likes of Kira or ppapanek). The corollary of this principle is your playstyle should be more team-oriented than your average carry's. Communication is the key: pinging when needed, typing about intentions/things done/upgrades bought in chat, playing the game zoomed out are all essential. Also, don't rush in to kill, but rather assist (some people find this rule very hard to obey). It's not a competition, for God's sake! As Sedna, I usually steal a lot of kills because Pounce is such a great finisher: it's not a big deal, as long as you aren't egotistic and save the stolen kill money for creeps or J-Treads your UB needs.

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January 3, 2011 3:50:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I. Sedna

My major issues with current pro builds are: (1) disproportional prominence of Silence; (2) too much emphasis on leveling up Heal; (3) Pounce getting neglected/postponed (at least, in Hedgie's and Hedgie-inspired builds); (4) IG being considered "a selfish skill" and "a newb trap". In particular:

(1) Since practice > theory, and I always get Silence I at 6-8 in skilled matches, I'm revising the statement I made in my previous Sedna-related post Silence I is a must-have at levels 6-8, while Silence II and III aren't a priority and should be postponed until very late game.

Ah - glad to see you've come around.  It always depends on what's happening in the game.  If you are in group battles much around level 6, silence is a must have.  Its also a game changer when used right and will cause the other team to be a bit more cautious once you pop it and catch them off guard.  I think you can always postpone silence 3, but suggest a little more thought on silence 2.  Silence 2 gives you a weaker version of oaks shield.  It lasts 4 seconds and 1) can be used by yourself if you want to be aggressive and push ports, then cast silence and tp away safely when fighting any single dg with an interrupt.  This alone expands the role sedna can play.  2) in group battles, you can use it the same way to allow for an ally to get the hell out of there.  That said, if you are sedna and casting so someone can run like hell - odds are the shit has hit the fan and you might be about to die yourself 3) that extra second where an enemy can't cast a heal or tp or lock or sigil can mean quite a bit (especially in a non-laggy game).  Anyway, the bottom line is that its situational.  If there are A LOT of group battles going on, I'd always like to have silence and I'd prefer silence 2.  Silence 3 is nice, but not as necessary as you don't get the extra benefits like point 1 and 2.  I rarely end up with silence 3, but if it seemed useful, I'd pick it up late.

(2) Heal should never be a priority after the very first point. Heal I is a must-have early game for emergencies, Heal III is nice to have afterwards due to debuff removal, but I wouldn't call it crucial. Sedna's main source of healing should be HW-enhanced bishops, not her own Heals. Keeping Heal level minimal until mid game also ensures you can always help a focused teammate when needed. +600 hp may not sound like a big deal, but it's an emergency-only skill and it is absolutely adequate to its purpose: preventing early kills by the opposing team.

Well, I guess that's a matter of how things are played.  I use heal 1 the same way early game (I usually get 1.heal1, 2 hw1, 3 pounce).  I think its arguable either way as to whether or not get more points in heal vs pounce.  I typically do things the way you describe, but pounce, outside of as an interrupt, isn't really a support skill - while heal is.  Anyway, I agree with what you say here, but I think you could play a build that put more points into heal and be quite successful, though I do prefer the extra pounce damage tied to a silence to increase the odds of a kill. 

(3) To quote Hedgie, Pounce is "one of the worst offensive abilities in the game. It has no debuffs, no AoE, you can't use it while you are chasing". On the other hand, it is a fast interrupt with a great cooldown, a decent range (7) and damage, plus you can (and, IMHO, should!) max it out qute early. Its most important advantage is its being Sedna's only decent source of damage, and being able to deal some concentrated damage is a critical quality in skilled 3v3 matches.

fair points.  The bottom line is that you absolutely need 1 level of this or you are a poop-head.  Yes.  A poop-head.

4) I am firmly convinced IG I is a critical early skill, unless you don't level Pounce and have no intention to actively assist your teammates in getting some kills. Besides a great +10 hps bonus, it gives you a +0.3 y/s, which is just enough to keep up with Erbs and UBs early game. Chase and AA until down to 600-800 hp > Pounce II/III got me a lot of early kills. No, not against noobs. Even experienced people tend not to expect concentrated damage from Sedna, especially at level 6-7. That said, IG II and III are selfish skills and newb traps, and should either be postponed or never taken.

I'm in the hedgie camp on this.  I don't think its worthwhile unless I'm pursuing a purely assassin style sed or acting as a tank to solo a lane.  In a support role, I don't think this is useful.  But then again, your version of a support role is providing pounces for quick dmg nukes.  I completely agree that I'd want the ability to get in a quick, high damge nuke, but its a playstyle thing too.  If I EVER get ganked (eg I'm sure I have, but not frequenty) for landing a pounce, I probably shouldn't have been taking a shot there anyway.  I probably have heal already, plus silence, plus a sigil.  I should be able to get the fug out of dodge if I'm even considering trying to land a pounce.  If I cant get away with just that... I probably shouldn't have engaged and just stayed back. 

Anyway, with everything I said, I think what you are describing here is quite viable.  Not exactly how I would play it, but people don't all play speed fire tb the way I do.  Its GENERALLY successful for me because I know how to play it.  You've been working on your sedna, so I'm certain you know how to play this build and you certainly do have some fair points. 

Only Pacov will hate you, but that goes without saying.

heh - that is true.  Well, I don't generally bitch about people playing well on my team.  Seriously, though, no one complains about a competent sedna doing her part for the team.  They complain about the sedna getting killed, or not microing her healers, not having silence when its needed for a kill (even though she's level 7), or missing a simple or critical heal, or... see - there's always something.  Thank God no one plays demigod to please me though.  I get in one of my moods and I'm an undeniable prick.  Though thats a little less frequent now.  Anyways, thanks for another good write up.  Many of us enjoy reading these sorts of things. 

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January 3, 2011 4:33:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Silence 2 gives you a weaker version of oaks shield.  It lasts 4 seconds and 1) can be used by yourself if you want to be aggressive and push ports, then cast silence and tp away safely when fighting any single dg with an interrupt.  This alone expands the role sedna can play.  2) in group battles, you can use it the same way to allow for an ally to get the hell out of there. 

Look, if we were playing over LAN, I would agree. But yesterday I couldn't interrupt Nom's Hammer Slam (!!!) because of the lag, so let's not talk about Silence II > TP being reliable. The failure margin is way too narrow here. I do use Silence to protect my teammates, but almost never for porting out myself. With Silence III it is a reliable option, but investing 3 points to become a third-rate Oak doesn't make me enthusiastic in the very least.

Thank God no one plays demigod to please me though. 

Except for Cow, you mean. He confessed to me he does in one of his PMs.

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January 3, 2011 12:41:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Silence I is pretty crucial obviously. Moving on since we've already discussed that. 

It's pretty undeniable that you need at least one point of both Heal and Pounce. What you get out of one level of Pounce is pretty amazing. You just don't get much more than that with each successive point. The problem, in my eyes, with leveling pounce is that you're trying to do something that Sedna just isn't that great at doing. Bishops for heals are great and all but against some teams they are just going to drop 

IG I won't allow you to outrun a UB or an Erebus. Erebus can bite you (or Mass Charm, or Bat Swarm). UB will be at least a few levels above you and probably have 2 points in Inner Beast by the time you see him. IG is critical in Sedna mirroirs however, and I bet you'll be happy about this but Orcun does postpone Heal IV in favor of IG I. Mostly to assist in Grasp > Silence chains. 

 

 

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January 3, 2011 2:20:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I like that you are trying new stuff. I think if you go with this you really need to warn your teammates going in. Something like “Low heal, Early Bishop.” Don't just surprise them with a weak ass heal.

I don’t like to spam the heal either. I see people doing that too much but early/mid game I think that heal can be used as much more than a small emergency button. I love to kill but I also realized that other DG’s are much better suited to do that. Giving a DG an extra 1200 hp at level 7 is huge. I know trying to do pounce, heal, silence uses ugly mana but I guess for me the higher level heal was just like the early silence. I’d rather have it and only use it when necessary than not have it when I needed it. There are so many different situations that the higher level heal can be used in. “What you’re retreating with full mana UB? BAMM heal III get back in there.” I find it similar with Occ “What you got full health no mana? BAMM Brainstorm get back in there.”

I didn’t really finish experimenting with Sed but what I found is early bishop really didn’t fit into what I was trying to do. They are expensive even with MCP(hah.) I found cleric to be the right match for me early game and then bishop later game. With the HW buff I think the clerics heal more than normal non buffed bishops and on the buffed side only 5% more than non buffed same idols. You figure (5% * 5k??) is only 250 every 10 secs great 25 hps increase. Awesome, yes, but that takes almost a minute to equal one 1200 Heal 3. I get that bishops are better blahblahblah but they should be when they cost 2700 and as far as high priest go, I don’t even bother with them.  I messed around with putting the heal II/III off till later too but I found I really liked it at level 7 with the full pounce by 10. I like to play her pounce/damage heavy also so instead of blowing my wad on early bishops I could go cleric, siege I, minotaur I. Now I never even thought about getting the level 1 idols before because I thought they sucked but they are an awesome increase in early game dps. With 1 cleric(because the other should be split) and all 4 minions it increases your dps by 80 and up to 110 if you have both clerics and 4 minions attacking. This almost doubles her early game dps, for me that was huge. Sedna - Level 4 dps-129, level 7 dps-156, Level 10 dps-184. By always targeting monks first I used them as an early counter heal. With sedna they don’t really die as often as you would think and people don’t really notice your little crew melting away their monks until too late. OHHHH this works soooo good with OCC even at level 4 I can fry both monks in like 2-3 seconds after summoned even bishops don’t take that long to kill either.  

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January 3, 2011 2:42:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Buffed Monks heal for the same as unbuffed Bishops. 

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January 3, 2011 2:48:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The problem, in my eyes, with leveling pounce is that you're trying to do something that Sedna just isn't that great at doing. Bishops for heals are great and all but against some teams they are just going to drop 

Well, first of all, I never claimed this is the build to end all builds, right? Of course, certain matchups dictate leveling up Heal. I don't stick to my build fanatically. About Pounce vs. Heal... It works for me better this way. I don't claim I can take on McOrcenz single-handedly with my heroic Pounces, but it is highly viable and competitive in skilled matches. I do get a lot of kills and my evaluation is I contribute much more to my team with Pounce IV + Silence I than with Silence III + Pounce I.

IG I won't allow you to outrun a UB or an Erebus.

Outrun? Of course not. But early game it does allow me to follow them while auto-attacking (as we both are 6.3 y/s). It's not theoretical, it works. Of course, Erb has great survival/escape options, but does it mean I should never even try to follow him? Erbs tend to oom themselves as often as other DGs do, after all...

OHHHH this works soooo good with OCC even at level 4 I can fry both monks in like 2-3 seconds after summoned even bishops don’t take that long to kill either.  

I knew it will end in hallelujah to Occ somehow!

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January 3, 2011 3:32:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Heck ya. I'll love him another month then kick this game to the curb.

But try out that minion stuff. I don't recall the exact circumstances but I remember pushing a full health Occ and an Oak off a flag early game when their armor is all shitty. They could have both been OOM or whatever but it was funny MCP Sed pushing them both back. It probably work even better with blood sed but that's for weenies. Real men use a coin purse.

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January 3, 2011 4:02:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ring of Divine Might pure minions is a really fun 2v2 Sedna build if you have an Oak or a Fire TB for the double-buffs. 

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January 4, 2011 2:22:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Real men use a coin purse.

It should really appeal to me (thanks to being Jewish and stuff), but I think it takes much more experience to play MCP effectively. I have only recently become decent taking the most user-friendly favor... So I don't think I can pull off MCP on any other DG than Reg. 

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January 4, 2011 11:59:55 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Awesome, yes, but that takes almost a minute to equal one 1200 Heal 3.

The logical fallacy here, IMHO, is that Heal III requires 625 mana / 0.5 sec to cast, and is interruptable, which is highly inconvenient mid-combat. In other words, passive healing effect almost always >>>>> active healing effect.

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January 4, 2011 1:26:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

and monks can be killed, the casting interrupted, and bishops cost 300 mana with a 30 second cooldown. Additionally, they might target something you don't want healed. 

Same logic can be applied to you. 

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January 4, 2011 1:38:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I wouldn't say highly inconvenient. Does it get interrupted? Sure, every skill does. If you want to go that route. This is assuming that your bishop is always alive and doesn't get interrupted upon summon either. Is it close enough to you? How many seconds from last heal? It's something you can't 100% count on either.

Yes, free hp is better than mana dependent hp but it still all comes down to situation. If you are about to die or get the kill which would you rather have a possible bishop heal for the save or a more than likely 1200 hp heal. I've just seen more saves from the heal than from bishops. Once the other teams damage dealers are at their level 7 & 10 nukes I just dont think Heal 1 can cut it.

Yes, you are adding the additional damage with her pounce but I think you can do both. How about pouce 3/4, heal 3 and buffed bishops. I think its easily doable level 7-10. The way I finally broke it down was that heal 3 for 625 mana at level 7 can be used better healing a real damage dealer. Is my pounce lethal? Yes, but you have to weigh it out. For 625 mana I can add a 1/4 of someones life back so they can get in there and do more damage than just my 650 mana/800 damage pounce alone. So again why not both? You can kinda spam your pounce(not a full spam), use your heal when neccesary and use your silence only for kill or save.

After trying no heal sedna with mixed results this is the build that I used. That's why I said its good to warn with the "Low heal. Early Bishops." Did I get lots of kills? Heckya. Did some people die because I didn't have a good enough heal? Heckya. I just found that a good mix of both higher level pounce and higher heal worked best for me. If this is working for you. That's awesome.

So to sum up, in the end I found that Heal was a higher priority than my pounce. How much? Idk. That's why I struck a good compromise between both.

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January 4, 2011 1:39:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Haha. Typing same time.

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January 4, 2011 2:09:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Heal III's value comes mostly from washing away damage dealing/multiplying effects such as Pent, Ground Spikes, Spit, etc and snares/debilitating effects such as Rain of Ice and all 20 abilities that slow you and your allies down.

If its later game and a 3v3 brawl is going on, and the enemy is focusing on one of your allies and just melts them it's not going to go over very well when you tell them "I don't need Heal III cause I have Bishops + HW..."

3v3 battle and the other team Ground Spikes, Pents, and Bites me?  HW/Bishops does not save my life, but Heal III might.

I'm trying to run away from a gank but am slowed from Mines IV and have a Tracking Cookie on me?  Bishops aren't even close enough to heal me but you are in range to let me escape with Heal III.

You're trying to defend a flag 1v1 with my dreaded Dual Aura Hybrid TB and my Permafrost + Rain of Ice attack debuff has you AAing once every 12 seconds?  (In the voice of Agent Smith from The Matrix) "Your Bishops... are already dead."

So on and so forth.

I play a Hybrid TB most of the time, and people are VERY upset when I don't have both Frost Nova II and Deep Freeze I by level 10.  They don't seem to understand that the person locking the mana flag in my face wouldn't be locking it and running away if I hadn't spent my early points on damage dealing abilities and that the "utility" abilities are often a waste of points and mana until later game... specially if you're playing Hybrid and might not be in the correct form at the time you need them.

So I feel your pain and am stoked that you're trying to find a less competitive build that is fun to play and still effective.  I just don't think you're going to find the new way to play Sedna that kicks everyones ass and has them saying "My goodness!  Why didn't I think of that?" so hopefully thats not what you're going for.

Hopefully you don't take this post the wrong way, I think we've got similar personalities in not wanting to do what everyone else does and theres nothing wrong with that as long as you realize you will probably be putting your team at a varying degree of disadvantage if you differ from the normal builds.  IMHO, the most competitive ways to play Sedna are how Hedgie plays her... the most effective way to play TB is pure fire, and if you play Hybrid the best way is how Teseer has played him since beta.

So on and so forth.

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January 4, 2011 2:17:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

and monks can be killed, the casting interrupted, and bishops cost 300 mana with a 30 second cooldown. Additionally, they might target something you don't want healed. 

The comparison is somewhat... asymmetrical, I'd say  I don't need to spend time and mana on re-summoning monks every time I want them to heal. And their heal priority order explicitly places allied DGs above all other options.

This is assuming that your bishop is always alive and doesn't get interrupted upon summon either. Is it close enough to you? How many seconds from last heal? It's something you can't 100% count on either.

Of course not. But it's an automatic healing option that works while I'm fighting/using other skills. That's my point, not that bishops last forever or that summoning new bishops cannot be interrupted. Plus, all said and done, monks give you much less trouble than the exciting game of "be fucking amazing at targeting the right DG to heal in 3v3 skirmish involving a Rook with your mouse!".

I'm not trying to convert anyone here, guys. I believe every experienced player is more or less set in his ways. In other words, what I'm trying to say is not that my build > Hedgie's build (and >>>>>>> brasher's build!!! ), but rather that FOR ME, my build > other builds.

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January 4, 2011 3:42:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The comparison is somewhat... asymmetrical, I'd say

Well let's make it symmetrical then. 

Bishops provide a 22% heal every 10 seconds (5 seconds if there are more demigods than monks in the region). Normal Monks provide a 15% heal at the same rates, though they are more susceptible to AoE. 

That 50% increase in hps (we could even say that normal monks spend 27% of their life dead, and so it's actually a 100% increase), comes at a gold cost of 2700. Let's say you currently have Scaled Helm, Scailmail, BotF and Unbreakables.

For items, I would purchase Banded Armor and Vlemish, which comes out to 2300 gold. It costs 2430 gold to replace monks with bishops and purchase Banded Armor. 

 

Heal III scenario (keep monks, buy items):

Banded gives you +400 HP and +5 hps armor compared to Scailmail. With normal monks (+15% heal, but dead 27% of the time so +10% hp every 10 seconds), this also gives an additional 4 hps. 

Vlemish gives you +1050 Mana and +15 mps (+11 without the aura). That gives you most of a heal (assuming you could partially heal its value is 2016 health), and assuming you only used your mps on Heal III that is an additional 28.8 hps. If someone else had Vlemish already and you were doubling the aura, then this drops to 21.12 hps. 

 

Net personal gain: 

+400 HP, 2016 "heal pool", 9 personal hps, 21-29 heal hps (21 is laning with a Vlemish already), and a 4 mps aura for allies (again, only if no one has Vlemish yet)

 

Heal I scenario (buy bishops, Banded Armor):

Banded Armor +400 HP, +5 personal hps. With bishop heals that provides an additional personal 8.8 hps. 

Bishops provide double the hps (assuming you're the only general and your old monks were dead 1/3rd of the time, if you have two generals each with monks and you promote up to bishops the hps gain is much larger but that is also suboptimal and pros won't do that). 

 

Net personal gain:

+400 HP, +13.8 personal hps. 

 

Simulation: 

- Everyone is at 5000 base health (or the "average" base health is 5000 when taking account into Sigils and hp flag). Lower base healths favor items, whereas higher base healths favor bishops. Significantly higher than 5000 average hp pools is rather moot, however, because by then you would have had lots of gold to spend and even if you prioritized items you may have been able to upgrade monks anyway. 

- We'll assume that for the item route the only heals made are the ones from the additional pool from Vlemish and natural healing regen. The "base" pool is used only on Pounces and Silences. 

- The initial attack made by your opponents is immediately healed off by the monk. I call this "topping off", and most of the monk/bishop heal is "overheal", but still puts you and your monk into a cooldowned state. 

4v4

You're in a 4v4 where your bishops heal every 5 seconds instead of 10, you would provide 440 hps, up from 220 hps from normal monks. 

At 220 hps gain, which is 199 hps better than the "Vlemish case" of going the item route, it takes 15.13 seconds before your Bishops surpass the item route (first heals are blown "topping off" you after your first hits and so they go on cooldown). 

That's assuming that absolute best case scenario for the Bishops (4v4, your bishops alternating heals so 0 CD state), and that your opponents are not focusing targets at all.

2v2

If, instead, it is a 2v2 your bishops will heal every 10 seconds (if you have 1 it will alternate between the two demigods, if you have 2, they will alternate between healing you and healing themselves), you would provide 220 hps, up from 110 hps from normal monks. 

At 110 hps gain, which is 99 hps better than the "Vlemish case" of going the item route.

If you have 1 monk and your opponents tag one of you with one attack (which is then "topped off"), then switch to the other for 5 seconds, then switch back every 5 seconds back and forth, it takes 25.36 seconds before your Bishops surpass the item route. If you have 2 monks and your opponents each attack on of you (the first attack being "topped off", then the next CD for your bishops being used on themselves), it actually takes 30.36 seconds before your Bishops surpass the item route. 

XvSingle Target

Let's assume that they focus an ally. Your ally will only get Bishop/Monk heals every 10 seconds. Your bishops provide 110 single target HPS, which is an improvement of 55 hps from normal monks.

At 55 hps gain, which is 34 hps better than the "Vlemish case" of going the item route. It takes 64.29 seconds before Bishops surpass the item route. 

 

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January 4, 2011 4:08:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Now, that's some vintage Hedgie! Loads of useful info, great analysis (you know I lack your mathematical ability, so it's really priceless). I'll draw my conclusions from the comparison and see how it works (FOR ME!) practically. I'm not ashamed to correct my own mistakes = re-think my build.

Low Heal, base Silence, max Pounce is the formula that works for me significantly better than any other Sed build ATM. That's surprising, TBH. I'm not an aggressive player by nature, so I was playing more Silence/Heal-heavy builds for a long time. My performance wasn't bad per se, but I failed to make a crucial difference in even matches, if you know what I mean. Now I can really be the secondary (sometimes, primary) carry with my Sed, as a solid amount of kills compensates for me being gimped early mid game due to FS+Cur1+Cur2 (cyclic argument here: I usually get them all now, since I steal kills from the "main killer"). True, I was forced to buy and drop Bulwark several times for my UB while playing this build, but that's a minor inconvenience as long as the team is communicating and coordinating the purchases. It doesn't matter much who gets the gold, if we can cooperate.

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January 4, 2011 4:17:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If its later game and a 3v3 brawl is going on, and the enemy is focusing on one of your allies and just melts them it's not going to go over very well when you tell them "I don't need Heal III cause I have Bishops + HW..."

Please note I've never advocated no-Heal III Sedna. I get Heal III at 11, which is later game, I guess. I may be a lousy player compared to you, but I'm a very thorough and analytical fellow otherwise, and, of course, I fully understand Heal III is not just +1200 hp.

I think we've got similar personalities

NO!!! WE DON'T!!! NEVER SAY THAT AGAIN!!! 

 

Seriously, Thunder, your intelligent and detailed feedback is greatly appreciated

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January 4, 2011 5:58:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Please note I've never advocated no-Heal III Sedna. I get Heal III at 11, which is later game, I guess. I may be a lousy player compared to you, but I'm a very thorough and analytical fellow otherwise, and, of course, I fully understand Heal III is not just +1200 hp.

Realize that Thunder is my 2v2 partner. Or was, I guess. Also, Thunder hates Pounce more than I do. 

---

Heal III at 11 is mid game, espiecially for 2s where you level faster.

The 8-12 level range for the hp-side is where most of the game making-and-breaking kills occur in 3v3s. 

 

I'm not exactly sure what you could be getting that would delay Heal to that late (though Heal IV can be delayed for awhile if you hate heal that much), other than IG.

Inner Grace is redundant if you have any of: Oak, Erebus, Fire TB, DA, Reg, Rook, Queen. The only cases where Inner Grace is really needed to Pounce is with Hybrid no-Aura TB, another Sedna, and Occulus, or against another Sedna. Or just go Cloak of Night and 4 HP items + Vlemish. 

 

Favor: CoN 

1- Heal 

2- HW

3- Pounce I 

4- Pounce II 

5 - HW II

6- Heal II 

7- Heal III

8- CH 

9- Pounce III 

10- Pounce IV

11- Silence

12- MP I 

13- MP II

14- Heal IV

15- MP III 

 

If you really want to Pounce, this is one of the better builds for it, especially with an Oak (really, only with an Oak). IG and Silence is less critical with CoN because you don't have to relay on it to keep you alive. You'll still want at least one point eventually, but with Pouncing and Healing both you won't have the mana for it very often anyway.

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January 4, 2011 6:49:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Realize that Thunder is my 2v2 partner.

Yeah, I know all about you two!  Your Blood-Silence build also works particularly well while supporting hybrid TBs. Mine has far worse synergy with TBs, as a rule.

Inner Grace is redundant if you have any of: Oak, Erebus, Fire TB, DA, Reg, Rook, Queen.

It's a bit like saying: dealing damage to Sedna is pointless, since she can heal it off. It's not that having, say, a QoT on my team will cast a freebie 15% speed reduction spell on any enemy I'm chasing. No, my QoT will need to be present there during the skirmish, then to get into the 20 y range, then to hit the bastard with SW I. The same is true regarding every other DG on your list, except, maybe, a Fire TB. Not to mention IG I's greatness shows only early game, when mana is scarce and my teammates may not have their speed buffs/debuffs yet.

The build you posted is a slightly altered Cloak-Pounce from your guide, right? Look... Maybe it's all because of my questionable skill, but I was never successfull in skilled matches with favor item other than Blood while playing Sedna. Pounce > Blink > AA > Pounce sounds nice in theory, but in fact this Sedna is way too fragile early game (assuming she still gets monks > FS + Cur 1) to jump into the action like there's no tomorrow (and why level Pounce early if you don't want to jump into action?). Indeed, I can see why you say this build is only good with a (support-minded) Oak on the team.

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January 4, 2011 8:30:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

well not so much a support minded Oak. Just an Assassin Oak. Max Pent/Shield/Surge/DJ I. 

Rook: He will usually be the target and he is so slow that you don't need to worry about "outrunning the bear". 

Oak: Pent should have 100% uptime, no argument there

Erebus: Bite and Pounce have the same cooldown and gives you plenty of time to Pounce before the snare breaks

DA: Probably the most questionable of the list, due to long CD on swap and that even if you swap you may still be too slow to chase after you Pounce

Reg: MotB, Mines, Maim I are all common enough and have a high enough uptime that you can Pounce while they are snared. 

Queen: the second most questionable, due to the long CD and high mana cost of the snare. But still valid. 

 

You don't jump into combat with CoN. You jump out, or jump to chase (Pounce > Blink > Chase > Pounce) assuming you have LoS of all the demigods and know it's a safe jump to make. 

CoN provides nearly as much health as BotF until HW II kicks in. 

Heal 1: 600 HP, 375 mana

CoN: 280 Mana, 4 mps

BotF: 800 HP, 5 hps + 8 hps from monks (12 with HW II). 1200 HP when sigiled and 18 hps from monks while sigiled 

 

The heal-conversion factor of CoN:

Heal 1- 448 HP, 6.4 hps

Heal 2- 504 HP, 7.2 hps

Heal 3- 538 HP, 7.7 hps

Heal 4- 560 HP, 8 hps

 

The biggest risk of CoN is that you have to heal much earlier because you don't realize the heal-conversion unless you are healing off of cooldown until you're oom. CoN will usually allow you to save an early game sigil (or force the enemy to blow one and then blink out), though it will probably cost you a few sigils end game. 

CoN does improve your gold income because you can use CoN to farm (I do when I'm on Mana Side). 100 gold is enough to mark the entire creep wave. Though it's probably no more than 200-400 gold through the whole game... 

However, CoN is more expensive than a Blood Sedna, and really only viable with an Oak on your team. You can purchase regen safely, but you can't safely purchase Currency. 

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January 5, 2011 2:37:45 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I can try Cloak-Pounce again. Last time I've given it a try I was much worse with Sedna overall, so it may work this time - who knows... One of the most attractive features of CoN, in my opinion, is that it's practically a helm (okay, a crappy helm, but still!). So you can run with CoN w/o helms, then with Scaled helm only for a very long time without upgrading to Vlemish (1310 gold is a significant investment early game), so maybe it's not THAT expensive, really.

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January 5, 2011 3:52:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

you don't need Vlemish very early but your need for Unbreakables becomes enormous. If difficult to play CoN with only 3 550g items.

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January 5, 2011 4:43:32 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Tried it out. Well... It's very cool in theory, indeed. However, in practice, Pounce makes most difference early/early mid game, when no one expects fast high damage nukes from Sedna. Now, CoN is a great favor item, but your hp is gimped so much early/early mid game you have to play it super-careful. As I suspected, you cannot really chase early game without an Oak. Every enemy will have higher health than you, and jumping into double towers for that second Pounce (note the default setting these days is Tower Strength=High) will either kill you or make you spend your mana and precious time on Heal, while the enemy gets out of Pounce range. Moreover, in PUG games it's not a good idea to tell your teammates: "You know, I'm playing a fucking amazing Cloak-Pounce Sedna, so I'm not getting Cur1. Our UB should get it instead." Coordinated premade teams are another story, and I'm sure the build can and will work under these conditions. 

PS: Oh, it also requires a lot more microing than Blood-Pounce (much more Heals, annoying laggy Cloak targeting). I still don't think it's my cup of tea, but I'll surely try it out in a coordinated team, since in theory this build really takes advantage of Pounce optimally - and that's an attractive idea.

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January 5, 2011 1:56:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

said you have to have an Oak (: 

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