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Silence and Mulch Re-Evaluated

By on December 31, 2010 3:45:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dlarimit

Join Date 10/2010
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I wish to argue here that Silence and Mulch are disproportionately prominent in current pro Sedna and QoT builds.

(1) Concerning Silence, I have another post in strategy section. I'll just add an observation: all pro Sednas I've seen to date do not prioritize Silence over Pounce. Period. Seems like Silence-Heal was working as intended for Hedgie, and for Hedgie only. I'd even go as far as to claim taking Silence I at level 6 (I see it a lot, especially in 'serious' games) is a mistake. That early into the game, it's likely to be -800 mana to make the opponents run away. It's far more efficient to level up Pounce to be able to contribute to total team damage output. Moreover, as I got better with Pounce timing, I've discovered I don't need an instant interrupt early/early mid game. Pounce can (and will) interrupt skills, pots, teleports when used correctly. Sigils are not commonplace early/early mid game, so Silence's main raison d'être is seriously undermined. Taking Silence I in 3v3 is justified level 10+, leveling it up is, by and large, not a priority at all, and can be postponed till very late game.

(2) Mulch is a potentially great skill that is extremely costly and highly inefficient unless you are a microing champion. I daresay, unless you play a very aggressive QoT as main carry/tank (totally possible and very interesting, just not her optimal role, IMHO), you don't need Mulch until level 10 or even 15. Taking Mulch I at 5 cannot be justified. I'm sure T1 players like Cow and Rawrrr take it and get away with it. But +750 hp (and 250 damage, which you won't get unless you want to see your Shambler die the moment before you Mulch) for 700 mana, involving using 2 different skills and blindly clicking like a madman to make it happen, is not exactly my idea of efficient. In other words: slow, mana-inefficient, clumsy, inconvenient way to heal 750 health. Unless you are luring, there is no way it can be worth an early skill point. Is one early kill (I assume a reasonably skilled game where ppl learn from mistakes) really worth the trouble? I don't think so. Now, Mulch II at 10 is where this skill truly begins to shine, and should be taken into serious consideration. However, support/secondary tank QoT doesn't really need Mulch until level 15+. Why heal yourself when you should concentrate on shielding, ground-spiking and spike-waving? No reason at all. If I feel I'm doing fine without Mulch, I'd even go: Entourage I > Entourage II > Entourage III > SAVE > GoT + Tribute (15). +4 gold production makes more difference late game in skilled match than super-safe QoT. Again, I assume here the team has a better carry/primary tank than QoT.

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December 31, 2010 3:49:40 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Regarding #1, by the time you are level 10 the enemy UBs are level 15. Easily. You don't Silence so you get the kill. You Silence so that your UB kills their UB. 

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December 31, 2010 4:06:52 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I cannot deny your logic here and I surely trust your experience. However, I feel you are exaggerating somewhat. Even assuming UB is doing mana solo non-stop unchecked and I share a lane with someone, it will be more like 10-13/14. Your main point is clear and totally valid, though. Guess I have to get some games that are, basically, equally skilled UB duels to draw my conclusions. No luck yet, it's always asymmetrical: either my UB is much stronger, or vice versa.

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December 31, 2010 9:28:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

For whomever is viewing my stats. I'm not playing on OMG__IN1 (double underscore) much. I have several alt accs, one of which is, interestingly enough, OMG_IN1 (regular underscore).

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December 31, 2010 11:38:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

(1) Concerning Silence, I have another post in strategy section. I'll just add an observation: all pro Sednas I've seen to date do not prioritize Silence over Pounce. Period. Seems like Silence-Heal was working as intended for Hedgie, and for Hedgie only. I'd even go as far as to claim taking Silence I at level 6 (I see it a lot, especially in 'serious' games) is a mistake.

I'd argue 6 is generally the best the time to pick up silence.  Just early enough to keep a sigil from going off and result in a kill on a decent team.  Right around lv 6 (FOR SEDNA), folks are either getting ready to pick up sigils or may already have.  Obviously, silence is a huge waste of mana if its misused or if you are a support sedna that is soloing.   I'd just say it makes a bit more sense to have an ability that can shut down the enemy team if needed earlier instead up being able to do an extra 200-300 damage on a pounce. 

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December 31, 2010 12:29:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Right around lv 6 (FOR SEDNA), folks are either getting ready to pick up sigils or may already have.

Okay, point taken. Let's analyze your mirror matches vs McOrcenz. Any notable use of Silence until 10? (not Renz/Soccer's 10, your 10). I should really refresh my memory, if so.

I'd just say it makes a bit more sense to have an ability that can shut down the enemy team if needed earlier instead up being able to do an extra 200-300 damage on a pounce. 

How many times have you seen that bastard get away with 200-300 hp, then writing "LOL!" into All chat, like it's all pure skill and peerless calculation, eh? (I do believe certain players can and will get away with 200-300 hp as a result of pure skill and peerless calculation, but we are talking about half a dozen here, at best)

 

 

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December 31, 2010 12:48:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Okay, point taken. Let's analyze your mirror matches vs McOrcenz. Any notable use of Silence until 10? (not Renz/Soccer's 10, your 10). I should really refresh my memory, if so.

May or may not be the case, but I can also say that there would have been no chance for a kill with an extra 200 damage at that point.  The odds for a kill or a save are > if silence is available in my experience.  I'd always rather have that ability sooner than later.  Its somewhat moot in the land of hypotheticals.  We're really talking about picking 1 skill point sooner than later.  And I'd say I'd rather have silence in case its needed.  You'd say who needs it until later.  Both are valid points in the scenario where I catch someone with silence or you catch someone with an extra 200 dmg and manage to snag a kill as a result.  It also stands to reason that I must have found getting silence at level 6 is a better decision, whether or not you agree with that in the few replays you saw clearly showing my 300+ games using sedna   Unless of course a couple of tourney games is the sum total of my experience with sedna, eh. 

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December 31, 2010 12:51:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I see your point. Well, maybe I should really remove a "Silence at 6 = mistake" from my thesis. I still pick it 6-8 in serious games myself, so...

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December 31, 2010 1:16:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think the times that I didn't get silence earlier like 6-7-8 I wish I had gotten it because I missed a few kills. I do really find it effective once your team mates are hitting their level 7 nukes and for sure you want it by the time they are at their level 10 nukes. I can see where you are going with it. You want your full pounce by 10 and at least heal 3 in and your HW2 or counter heal. I would rather put off the counter heal or eliminate the IG to get silence in earlier.  I struggled with Hedgie's thoughts on IG but I found it really is just a safety net and I didn't really need it once I got better with her. That 10 hps and speed is awesome but its a selfish skill.  I think I even started putting off the IG untill like 12. I'm finding the same thing with KoM on Occ. It's good to have but that point could be used better somewhere else if I just play a little smarter.

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December 31, 2010 1:24:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes, probably IG can be put off. I don't oom myself nearly as fast as I used to once, so that +10 hps isn't that crucial anymore. +0.3 y/s speed isn't really as selfish as it sounds (an ability to assist during early Erb/UB kills is awesome), but yeah... No IG until late game, I guess.

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December 31, 2010 1:39:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I've even toyed with this, putting off HW 2 a little bit. With your HW1, higher level priests and Heal 3. I found HW2 really isn't neccesary if your goal is more damge.  

1 HEAL 1
2 HW1
3 Pounce1
4 HEAL 2
5 Pounce 2
6 Silence
7 HEAL 3
8 Pounce 3
9 HW2
10 Counter if needed or Pounce 4
11Pounce 4  
12 IG1
13 HEAL 4
14 MP1
15 Silence 2
 
 
 
 

 

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December 31, 2010 1:42:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG__IN1,
Yes, probably IG can be put off. I don't oom myself nearly as fast as I used to once, so that +10 hps isn't that crucial anymore. +0.3 y/s speed isn't really as selfish as it sounds (an ability to assist during early Erb/UB kills is awesome), but yeah... No IG until late game, I guess.

I was usually adding in speed wand to Pounce wand Pounce some ass.

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December 31, 2010 8:25:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG__IN1,
I cannot deny your logic here and I surely trust your experience. However, I feel you are exaggerating somewhat. Even assuming UB is doing mana solo non-stop unchecked and I share a lane with someone, it will be more like 10-13/14. Your main point is clear and totally valid, though. Guess I have to get some games that are, basically, equally skilled UB duels to draw my conclusions. No luck yet, it's always asymmetrical: either my UB is much stronger, or vice versa.

I'm actually not exaggerating at all. The last game I played when the UBs hit level 15 I was halfway to level 9. 

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January 1, 2011 2:20:03 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah, I've seen the replay, if you are talking about that tourney game in which you were an alt for KALEL. Dunno, maybe I'm usually left alone in a lane a bit more than you were, or I just tend to level up more aggressively. Or it may be the skill of the opposing team... I'd probably stay level 5 forever vs McOrcenz

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January 2, 2011 11:46:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,


(2) Mulch is a potentially great skill that is extremely costly and highly inefficient unless you are a microing champion. I daresay, unless you play a very aggressive QoT as main carry/tank (totally possible and very interesting, just not her optimal role, IMHO), you don't need Mulch until level 10 or even 15. Taking Mulch I at 5 cannot be justified. I'm sure T1 players like Cow and Rawrrr take it and get away with it. But +750 hp (and 250 damage, which you won't get unless you want to see your Shambler die the moment before you Mulch) for 700 mana, involving using 2 different skills and blindly clicking like a madman to make it happen, is not exactly my idea of efficient. In other words: slow, mana-inefficient, clumsy, inconvenient way to heal 750 health. Unless you are luring, there is no way it can be worth an early skill point. Is one early kill (I assume a reasonably skilled game where ppl learn from mistakes) really worth the trouble? I don't think so. Now, Mulch II at 10 is where this skill truly begins to shine, and should be taken into serious consideration. However, support/secondary tank QoT doesn't really need Mulch until level 15+. Why heal yourself when you should concentrate on shielding, ground-spiking and spike-waving? No reason at all. If I feel I'm doing fine without Mulch, I'd even go: Entourage I > Entourage II > Entourage III > SAVE > GoT + Tribute (15). +4 gold production makes more difference late game in skilled match than super-safe QoT. Again, I assume here the team has a better carry/primary tank than QoT.

I have played a queen both tank and support wise, and both times I would never noy get mulch at level , to me mulch is that skill that you may not need just at that moment, but it is always nice to have. (Cow and Rawrrr aren't the only ones who get away with it, I place mulch on a higher value than ground spikes, but thats just because to me survival is a higher goal than getting that kill. Yes getting that kill is nice, but it was pointless if you or a teammate had to be sacrificed in the process. Any advantage it might have got you has just now been neutralized.

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