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Rook-Supporting Cape QoT Build Ideas?

(Be F***ing Amazing With QoT)

By on December 13, 2010 4:59:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes, that's really a niche build. Just realized Cape QoT might actually outshine Cape Sedna as Rook-supporter significantly (well, defensive mechanism per se suffers -- Shield + regular Bishop heals are bad substitute for Heal 3/4 + HW 2 + HW-enhanced bishop heals, as does cooldown reduction, but tower damage potential really goes up due to Ground Spikes armor reduction, so I don't think many gankers will be tempted to try their luck in the first place). I'm not sure this build has to be a Rawrr's standard 'pro QoT' thing, though, as having Cape dictates a somewhat different skill progression. Do I really have to invest that much into Munch... errrrm... Mulch, for instance? Provided I'm attached to Rook's arse 90% of the time (=hide in his towers and refuse to fight like a man), it doesn't seem to be top priority.

PS: Well, Pacov, it's QoT-related, not Sed-related now. I'd even tell Dreamcatcher to go MCP Rook if you'll post a genius Rook-supporting QoT build here!

+20 Karma | 55 Replies
December 13, 2010 5:33:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, Pacov, it's QoT-related, not Sed-related now. I'd even tell Dreamcatcher to go MCP Rook if you'll post a genius Rook-supporting QoT build here!

well - there are plenty of things you could do to support a rook, but the real trick is being able to stay with the rook, which you generally can't do an entire game.  The downside to a specialized build is that you'll probably find yourself a bit weaker when you have to solo.  Anyway, I'm sure I could come up with some logical builds, but a lot of the problem is going to be in chasing and getting kills, imo.  Sure, you can hold a lane pretty well and the cape would help keep a rook in a lane longer (primarily early/mid game), but you likely require a third to get the kills.  Just some quick thoughts for now...

December 13, 2010 5:37:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

wots queen is more support for rook!

December 13, 2010 5:46:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sure, you can hold a lane pretty well and the cape would help keep a rook in a lane longer (primarily early/mid game), but you likely require a third to get the kills. 

Well, the starting assumption is we have a highly skilled and aggressive Fire TB soloing mana lane (we do). Not that Sed+Rook can get a lot of kills, either. The purpose of this duo is to push the defenses systematically (+ not to die). They can actually get some kills when on the defensive, I guess. Otherwise... Let the TB do the dirty work. 

When do I have to go solo, really? Of course, some situations might arise that require a quick solo port, that's perfectly understood. She won't be super-easy to kill with Shield and Mulch, anyway, and perfectly adequate to her purpose of slowing down the enemy progress (supposed they try to capture a portal, for example) until the big guns arrive.

December 13, 2010 5:53:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

wots queen is more support for rook!

I had some thoughts about WotS QoT, but Staff of Renewal + Cape of Plentiful Mana have such a nice synergy... Yes, I guess for any other favor Rook, WotS QoT should provide a greater benefit.

December 13, 2010 6:49:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG__IN1,
wots queen is more support for rook!

I had some thoughts about WotS QoT, but Staff of Renewal + Cape of Plentiful Mana have such a nice synergy... Yes, I guess for any other favor Rook, WotS QoT should provide a greater benefit.
I have ran wots queen quite a few times in the past, the favor seemed to fit for her, if only it gave a Little hp boost with the healing ability it would be my go to item fopr every game. I never enjoyed using either staff of renewal or cpe of plentiful mana with queen, but that is just .

December 13, 2010 11:20:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Blood queen how me and rawrr play queen is probably the only way to play queen in a pro game.

December 14, 2010 12:13:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Blood queen how me and rawrr play queen is probably the only way to play queen in a pro game.

right - but talking about build suggestions.  Its fun to think out of the box from time to time, even if it might be less than optimal. 

December 14, 2010 12:53:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Blood queen how me and rawrr play queen is probably the only way to play queen in a pro game.

Not trying to challenge your opinion, but let's take a closer look at Blood vs Cape QoT at level 10 (I chose a more or less 'standard' gear for the respective level, based on this info and replays by rawrr: https://forums.demigodthegame.com/387716):

Blood QoT 10 (2-helm setup: Vlemish, Unbreakables, Banded, Nimoth, Plenor): hp = 4695, hps regen rate = 19, mana = 5441, mana regen rate = 29/37 (unpacked/packed).

vs

Cape QoT 10 (1-helm setup: Vlemish, Unbreakables, Banded, Nimoth, Hauberk): hp = 4495, hps regen rate = 24, mana = 3866, mana regen rate = 17/26/94 (unpacked/packed/cape).

or

Blood QoT 10 (3-helm setup: Vlemish, Unbreakables, Scaled Helm, Nimoth, Plenor): hp = 4295, hps regen rate = 14, mana = 5966, mana regen rate = 35/46 (unpacked/packed).

vs

Cape QoT 10 (2-helm setup: Vlemish, Unbreakables, Scaled Helm, Nimoth, Hauberk): hp = 4095, hps regen rate = 19, mana = 4391, mana regen rate = 21/32/116 (unpacked/packed/cape).

Personally, I think they look quite comparable. At level 15, the initial hp/hps boost provided by Blood will totally disappear, since Cape QoT will presumably have Groffling. In other words, I'd say Blood provides a nice (sometimes critical) boost in the beginning, but does not scale at all, while Cape does -- and quite wonderfully, at that. Of course, Blood is preferable to Cape if I intend to go a tank-type QoT, soloing lanes, killing UBs and stuff... But for a QoT sharing a lane with a Rook? Well, I seriously doubt she will be ganked while hiding in the towers (unless the gankers are suicidal or the Rook is afk). She can avoid intensive combat up to the point she stacks enough hp to compensate for taking Cape instead of Blood, and then... Well, 200 hp difference (with higher hps, btw) won't make a huge tankability potential gap between the builds. However, I might be overlooking something very important. Feel free to refute my noob babblings Where is rawrrr, anyway? He would surely destroy my theory-crafting with some witty comments...

 

December 14, 2010 1:01:40 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

am i crazy, or does qot's mana regen rate actually drop at certain points during her leveling... coulda sworn I saw that.  At any rate, this made testing different mana items viable.  I think I came up with plenor +(hat that gives 35% mana) scaled and determined that was better than getting vlemish due to regen (but can't remember).  I toyed around with a build for a bit.  Anyway, I was finding that I could SOMEWHAT cheaply get a regen of 130-140 hp for 10 sec.  I also found during testing (granted it was an AI game) that I could stay out a VERY long time.  I think for a pro game though, it would require a somewhat UNIQUE build, but I'm not sure the best way to pull it off.  To make up for the lower hp, you likely need to get mulch (robert mulch - lolz) sooner than later.  I found that only 1 level in shamblers was adequte, but found it difficult to get mulch or shambler's earlier in my build as I perfer other abilities there.  Anyway, I think I can come up with something optimal, but still not sure how good its going to be.  Consider a mirror match.  A qot using a differnt build could easily shield walk into a farm, ground spike - then followed by a tb can either freeze or fire up the towers, which reduces the rooks primary power (assuming we are talking about tower rook.  If we are starting to talk about a 1/1 hammer/tower rook, then we might have something interesting.  Anyway, more quick thoughts... sleep time. 

December 14, 2010 1:31:18 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Look at the mana pools and mana regen rate without cape on, even with cape a blood queen has a larger mana pool then you and more hp, You will go oom before me and run away. Activating cape wont give you much of an advantage, you might get + 700-1000 more mana on me by the time its done but I started with a larger pool to begin with.

On a side note I don't think a 1 helm queen is possible even with cape me and rawrr both have run oom several times with hungerlings, vlem, plenor before. Unless your whole goal in life is to shield people and summon monks. So my point earlier might be moot because it would be 2 helm blood vs 2 helm cape. If you do that you would suffer even less hp then before and run away sooner.

Now I am not really into theoretical mumblings because you can talk up a build with numbers and mumbo jumbo as much as you want, what really matters is how it performs.

December 14, 2010 1:47:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Cow, it's obvious Blood QoT is much stronger 1v1 (exactly because of what you say). But for a niche support build, Cape QoT has a nice staying power, and is not really that helpless on her own. In other words, my question was: will a Cape QoT + Renewal Rook be stronger in a lane than Blood QoT + [something] Rook?

Now I am not really into theoretical mumblings because you can talk up a build with numbers and mumbo jumbo as much as you want, what really matters is how it performs.

I know you are a practical type  Actually, I'm surprised to see a detailed feedback w/ numbers and stuff from you here: this is much appreciated!

December 14, 2010 1:56:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG__IN1,
Cow, it's obvious Blood QoT is much stronger 1v1 (exactly because of what you say). But for a niche support build, Cape QoT has a nice staying power, and is not really that helpless on her own. In other words, my question was: will a Cape QoT + Renewal Rook be stronger in a lane than Blood QoT + [something] Rook?

I can see a cape qot + rook dominating a lane early, pushing very hard, killing towers, pushing gold/cooldown flag, simply because the rook doesn't go oom. Essentialy Rawrrs QoT and mine are shielding teammates if we are on hp side early game, and a cape queen would do this better. but....................

you lose two very important things with cape qot IMO

You can't solo a lane, like Rawrrs qot or mine ( leveling a QoT can be a VERY good idea.... ) and late game you will suffer.

Why? you ask? your cape queen wont be able to hold up as well as a blood qot when targeted in the big 3v3 engagements that ultimately decide the fate of the game. In a pro level game I can see the short comings of this build coming out in late game. Most pro matches are not decided by how hard you push early game but by whos team dies, gets out of position and loses a portal. I see the chances of that happening more likely with the cape qot.

December 14, 2010 9:05:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_ZEX,
Blood queen how me and rawrr play queen is probably the only way to play queen in a pro game.
dont you mean black mage as well?

December 14, 2010 8:38:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

(robert mulch - lolz)

 

Lolz, indeed.

December 15, 2010 12:35:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No more discussion? I was begining to enjoy myself...

December 15, 2010 9:03:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No more discussion? I was begining to enjoy myself...

Actually, I wanted to post some thoughts on Blood-Tank QoT build (basically, whatever you and rawrrr play). Up to 15, what I've done was: BS1 > Shambler1 > GS1 > GS2 > Mulch1 (5) > BS2 > GS3 > SW1 > [SAVE] > Mulch2+GS4 (10) > BS3 > SW2 > BS4 > [SAVE] > Mulch3+GoT. Now, I don't really know what to do after 15 with this build. Investing into Entourage, then Tribute, as per Rawrrr's OP, seems kinda meh that late into the game. The only alternative I can think of is getting Shamblers to 4 (they become much more mana-effective and less annoying to re-summon -- typically, you have to Mulch a lot late game) and, probably, teching 2 levels of Entourage.

Also, I think Magus Rod is a greatest single investment for QoT. Her main weakness mana-wise is some of her abilities are insanely costly, and MR really takes care of it. Moreover, it's a Plenor equivalent in a consumable slot. So it is possible to go Hungarling, 4 hp/speed items and MR late game (-70% skill cost is just crazy). There is a catch: a somewhat annoying inability to run with sigils late game (you absolutely need tps and locks, yes?), but if there is a DG that can stay alive while focused without sigiling, it's a Blood-Tank QoT.

Spike Wave: I don't see any problems with SW1 early, then SW2 mid-game. 20% slowdown and 500 dmg in 25y range is surely better than 15% slowdown and 350 dmg in 20y range. Of course, taking SW3 would be a huge mistake -- 15s cooldown makes it worse than SW2. But, overall, this skill is really nice and earned our team some kills.

Luring works great with her, especially if there is a Reg on a team. And since Mulch has unlimited range, I was actually able to get a kill with Mulch 3 while shopping (sure enough, got lucky to deal the last 750, but still...) 

A question of microing Shamblers: in big skirmishes, Mulch is tricky to use, IMHO. I cannot see where that lone Shambler is for the sake of God Almighty. That's one of the reasons I think it is beneficial to tech Shamblers 2-4 late game, when so much is going on: much greater chance you'll see one of the four ASAP. I found myself positioning Shamblers by tower (or at any other safe point on my escape route) after summoning them at crystal while I had Mulch 1. 250 AoE damage is nice, but negligible, and you really don't want to waste mana on summoning Shamblers when they focus you early game. Shield, run, Mulch Shamblers en route. Mulch 2 is so much stronger, however (and by lvl 10, QoT should have her mana issues sorted) that I tend to summon them when needed (i. e., Shield > Shambler > Mulch > Shield > Shambler > Mulch). 

December 15, 2010 10:30:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

side note - i'll continue this conversation as well.. just been busy.

December 15, 2010 10:51:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah, I know. Tourney issues related to our soon-to-be-famous Turkish artist leaving for a month on 18/12 (without teaching me some Orcun-exclusive UB tricks, as promised! hah! no wonder we have a diplomatic crisis with Turkey!)

PS: Now, for some reason I'm sure everyone will comment on this, and not on the previous post involving build analysis :/

December 16, 2010 3:11:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG__IN1,


 > Shambler1 > GS1 > GS2 > Mulch1 (5) > BS2 > GS3 > SW1 > [SAVE] > Mulch2+GS4 (10) > BS3 > SW2 > BS4 > [SAVE] >


A question of microing Shamblers: in big skirmishes, Mulch is tricky to use, IMHO. 

As far as that build order goes, it looks more like Rawrrs playstyle then mine which is perfectly fine. I prefer a bit different playstyle.

I do:

  • 1 shield 1
  • 2 GS 1
  • 3 shambler 1
  • 4 GS 2
  • 5 Mulch
  • 6 Spike Wave
  • 7 GS 3
  • 8 Save
  • 9 Save
  • 10 Mulch 2, GS 4, Spike Wave 2
  • 11 Shield 2
  • 12 Shield 3
  • 13 Shield 4
  • 14 Save
  • 15 Mulch 3, Goddess of Thorns
  • 16 Spike Wave 3
  • 17 shambler 2
  • 18 shambler 3
  • 19 shambler 4
  • 20 Buttzex!!!!

I use shield as a damage reducer instead of "hey look at me I have shield and u can't do shit." If I see fire ball being casted I shield myself and brush off the damage. I want to stay in open form for as long so I can to use GS, that is the goal of my build.

If you want to know why I think Spike wave is so important look at this senerio. Oh Noes1!!!11!!!1!!!!! I see erebus, ub, and oak walking toward me1!!1!!1!!!! As they all round the corner you cast spike wave at max range so it just hits them as the round. There is NO WAY that they can catch up and triple you (bar a batswarm, mass charm 4, bite 4). You walk away laughing at there slowness. Spike wave 2 increases its length as well.

Now as far as targeting shamblers in the big I-am-getting-raped-by-3-people fights I think that just comes with practice and clicking as fast as possible. Once you get a few more levels in shamblers it is really easy to mulch. If I am finding it hard to mulch properly I might pick up a second level in shamblers instead of getting a point in shield or spikewave 2. I only ever experience this when I am fighting a combination of tb, reg, oculus because of the massive burst damage that 2 of these demigods provide. The scarier thing that can happen though is if one of your skills, like mulch,  gets interrupted then your dead. The BIGGEST thing that kills a QoT in pro level play though is chain stunning with UB. Grasp + Charm, Grasp + boulder, Grasp + Ice Nova, Grasp + Silence, all of these things make queen unable to use her abilities. A queen that can't cast her save-my-own-ass skills for more then a few seconds is a dead queen. You must not get chain stunned, ever.

December 16, 2010 3:40:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think mine is closer to yours, to be honest At least, skill progression is closer to yours than to rawrrr's (as outlined in his post on Blood QoT), and you go Shamblers 16+, not Entourage + Tribute.

Totally agreed on all points, except, maybe, getting SW3 at all. Yes, it's 650 dmg/25% slowdown/30y as opposed to SW2's 500/20%/25, but that cooldown increase by 50% makes it really really bad. On the other hand, it's not one of those skills you are supposed to spam, so may as well be still worth getting for additional range + slowdown.

I'm particularly interested in people's thoughts on Magus Rod as an essential item for Blood-Tank QoT builds (+ 1 hp item slot; Plenor equivalent; fantastic cooldown, so really great when you need to spam that hugely overpriced Shield or GS+SW).

December 16, 2010 1:15:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Magnus Rod is pretty awesome for Occulus. 

Also, Sigils > Locks. Always have TPs. No exceptions. But if you have to give up a slot, give up locks. 

December 16, 2010 3:09:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Magnus Rod is pretty awesome for Occulus. 

Well, Occ and QoT share a drawback of being extremely mana-hungry, so...

Also, Sigils > Locks. Always have TPs. No exceptions. But if you have to give up a slot, give up locks. 

This approach cost me a few games, tbh. I play either Sed or QoT, so I'm what frag-happy people like to call a support. Now, people playing, say, UB, naturally have little to no choice: they will have Orb, Sigils and TPs. No locks. That much is frequently true regarding other assassins. Nothing is more frustrating late game than losing momentum while on the offensive or failing to stop an enemy portal assault while on the defensive due to stupid: "Uhhh... I have no locks..." "What?! Noob! Idiot! You are worthless! Uninstall this game! NOOOOW!!!" "But... No, guys! It's just that Hedgie told me Sigils > Locks!!!" Yes, Sigils are great as a failure tolerance mechanism, no doubt, but in terms of strategical value late game in a typical 3v3 A + A + G: Locks >>> Sigils. In coordinated teams having voice chat and general strategic plan for each match, like one I'm currently trying to play with Dreamcatcher and Lols_SeaWolf, I'd say it is perfectly possible to get such things pre-planned, so that Sedna/QoT is not a "locker" by default. 

December 17, 2010 1:01:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Rich (aka OMG_UserBanned) amicably advised me against taking QoT on a pretty balanced game this morning (brasher on his side, but I had Quincrane). Why? Because otherwise he would destroy me with his . I was forced to leave the lobby as I was having a fit of uncontrollable hysterical laugh    Seriously, even experienced folks neither use, nor respect QoT much, and that's actually an advantage, when I think about it.

December 17, 2010 3:08:28 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG__IN1,
Rich (aka OMG_UserBanned) amicably advised me against taking QoT on a pretty balanced game this morning (brasher on his side, but I had Quincrane). Why? Because otherwise he would destroy me with his . I was forced to leave the lobby as I was having a fit of uncontrollable hysterical laugh    Seriously, even experienced folks neither use, nor respect QoT much, and that's actually an advantage, when I think about it.

eh I love beating people with QoT

December 17, 2010 7:42:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_ZEX,

Quoting OMG__IN1, reply 23Rich (aka OMG_UserBanned) amicably advised me against taking QoT on a pretty balanced game this morning (brasher on his side, but I had Quincrane). Why? Because otherwise he would destroy me with his . I was forced to leave the lobby as I was having a fit of uncontrollable hysterical laugh    Seriously, even experienced folks neither use, nor respect QoT much, and that's actually an advantage, when I think about it.

eh I love beating people with QoT
try doing it when you have a 27% its hilarious.

 

Quoting OMG__IN1,
Rich (aka OMG_UserBanned) amicably advised me against taking QoT on a pretty balanced game this morning (brasher on his side, but I had Quincrane). Why? Because otherwise he would destroy me with his . I was forced to leave the lobby as I was having a fit of uncontrollable hysterical laugh    Seriously, even experienced folks neither use, nor respect QoT much, and that's actually an advantage, when I think about it.

this is hilarious.

 

 

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