Are towers still broken?

By on September 29, 2010 3:33:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

KingBingo

Join Date 04/2007
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I saw some posts from a good while back saying how towers splash damage upgrade was broken. Since then i have been telling my team NOT to buy that upgrade.

 

It occurs that surely a fix has been implemented by now. Can anyone confirm?

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September 29, 2010 3:50:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,

I saw some posts from a good while back saying how towers splash damage upgrade was broken. Since then i have been telling my team NOT to buy that upgrade.

It occurs that surely a fix has been implemented by now. Can anyone confirm?

This is still broken.  I believe its fixed in the uberfix mod, but has not been fixed in the game itself.

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September 30, 2010 5:10:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ok I'm sure I'm wrong about this but when towers are set on high it seems (from a few comparisons) that when splash is purchased they spit out more damage. Anyone noticed this?

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September 30, 2010 1:33:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting doggu,
ok I'm sure I'm wrong about this but when towers are set on high it seems (from a few comparisons) that when splash is purchased they spit out more damage. Anyone noticed this?

I would suggest a test of this in the uberfix forum, they usually get to the bottom of things.

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September 30, 2010 9:46:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I shall explain this... once again.

The Damage upgrades have a total of three functions:

- Increase % damage

- Increase splash radius

- Increase splash damage.

 

Both the first two work properly. If you are hit by the beam of an upgraded tower, you take 200 damage, mitigated by armor, and everything around you by 2 feet takes splash damage (this was changed... originally there was no splash damage but it was added for balance reasons, which is why the second half is broken...).

If you are hit by the beat of an upgraded tower, you take 220 damage, mitigated by armor, and everything around you by 2.5 feet takes splash damage. That part works.

However, unupgraded you take 100% splash damage. That is, 200.

Upgraded, you take 10/20/30/40/50% splash damage. That's 22, 25... and so on.

So... if a demigod is shot by the tower, having it upgraded is more useful. However, an upgraded tower takes longer to kill minions and creep waves. Which is why buying it is bad.

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October 1, 2010 1:04:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So... if a demigod is shot by the tower, having it upgraded is more useful. However, an upgraded tower takes longer to kill minions and creep waves. Which is why buying it is bad.

There ya go.  Thanks for chiming in again hedige.  Not everyone digs through the lua and some folks are much more apt with the numbers.  Glad you are still hanging out with us, my grouchy friend. 

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November 30, 2010 2:43:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Resurrecting this thread, because I keep seeing people say it's fixed in the Uberfix, and when I tell them there is no such fix (and there isn't), they ask me why:  Because as far as I can tell, the problem isn't real.  The proof is in this post.

Now maybe everyone isn't crazy, and this was actually a real thing in an older version of demigod - I don't have the lua from any versions prior to 1.2, so I can't confirm this, but unless someone gives me definitive proof otherwise, this ain't a thing anymore.

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November 30, 2010 8:49:30 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting miriyaka,
Resurrecting this thread, because I keep seeing people say it's fixed in the Uberfix, and when I tell them there is no such fix (and there isn't), they ask me why:  Because as far as I can tell, the problem isn't real.  The proof is in this post.


Now maybe everyone isn't crazy, and this was actually a real thing in an older version of demigod - I don't have the lua from any versions prior to 1.2, so I can't confirm this, but unless someone gives me definitive proof otherwise, this ain't a thing anymore.

Hmm.... interesting.  I have the lua from 1.0.  If you want me to upload a particular file for you to have a look, just let me know. 

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November 30, 2010 9:09:55 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
I shall explain this... once again.

The Damage upgrades have a total of three functions:

- Increase % damage

- Increase splash radius

- Increase splash damage.

Both the first two work properly. If you are hit by the beam of an upgraded tower, you take 200 damage, mitigated by armor, and everything around you by 2 feet takes splash damage (this was changed... originally there was no splash damage but it was added for balance reasons, which is why the second half is broken...).

If you are hit by the beat of an upgraded tower, you take 220 damage, mitigated by armor, and everything around you by 2.5 feet takes splash damage. That part works.

However, unupgraded you take 100% splash damage. That is, 200.

Upgraded, you take 10/20/30/40/50% splash damage. That's 22, 25... and so on.

So... if a demigod is shot by the tower, having it upgraded is more useful. However, an upgraded tower takes longer to kill minions and creep waves. Which is why buying it is bad.

OK - so hedgie, do you believe this is currently working as intended or is a change required.  Based on what you are saying (if its accurate), the bottom line is that tower upgrades do more damage to dgs but less to creep waves.  If all you care about is for creep management, you are better off leaving the tower upgrade along.  Anyway, do you think this is a bug/coding error that actually needs adjusted?  Or do you think this really just falls into the balance change sort of category. 

As it stands, its a somewhat useless upgrade and I'd think we'd want to see the splash damage increase as upgrades are purchased along with the regular damage. 

 

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November 30, 2010 1:31:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is definitely not an error or an omission; beam weapons in FA, SC2, and Demigod all work this way - if they have a radius, all they do is radius damage.  It follows that because of this, you wouldn't want them to use a specific damage radius multiplier, and instead do their full damage to all targets within splash range.  Just to hammer this home again - in no way are the towers capable of doing REDUCED damage to ANYTHING with these upgrades.  Their damage and radius only increases.

I think this is working exactly as intended, and the DamageSplash buff is intended only for the arrow towers.

 

Now, there's one thing I haven't tested, and that is Trebuchet splash damage.  They do splash, right?  They might be affected, unless their script specifically accounts for / disregards SplashMult.  I'll take a look at their class inheritance and see what I can figure out.

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November 30, 2010 2:02:28 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

in no way are the towers capable of doing REDUCED damage to ANYTHING with these upgrades.

Ok - so what you are saying differs from what hedgie said if I'm reading you right.  So, you actually aren't hurting yourself when you buy the upgrade?  Eg creeps actually take more damage and so do dgs?

This has apparently been a misconception, so please hammer away on the points until its crystal clear if you can put up with me being dense. 

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November 30, 2010 3:41:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes, there is absolutely no reduction of anything for Towers of Light/Dark when purchasing the upgrades.  Like I said later in the post though, I haven't looked at Trebuchets to confirm whether or not they're affected.  They probably are, since they're projectile weapons, and would need a special exception in their script that floors the splashmult at 1.

A better solution might be to actually floor splash mult at 1 in Weapon.lua (the root weapon class) if the weapon in question has a blueprint-set damage radius.  This would not affect units like Yetis or arrow towers that have no blueprint radius, but Catapults, Trebuchets, etc would be immune to splash mult reduction.

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November 30, 2010 4:02:37 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Ok then.  So, the bottom line appears to be that the upgrade does increase damage (PERIOD).  The question is whether or not it is all that useful for defense against demigods or creep waves and worth buying as an upgrade.  I'll look into that during some ai skirmish tests.  Thanks for looking into this... apparently its been a misconception for quite some time.

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November 30, 2010 6:17:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Code-wise, it looks like Trebs are affected by this.  Not Rook's, but the fort trebs, and the two captureable ones on Brothers.  If someone wants to confirm this in-game, that'd be cool, but I'm planning on fixing this with the UberFix.  I'll probably go with a BuffAffects fix, where it protects any weapon with a natural blueprint damageradius from negative splashmult, unless the buff doing it is flagged as a debuff.

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November 30, 2010 9:27:20 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Is the below correct then?

 

(1) The upgrade effects both DG's and creeps.

(2) And, the splash increase effects arrow towers and the direct damage increases effect the beam towers?

(3) A query: Is this possibly where the misconception arose as the first beam tower that the creeps get to has no arrow tower and therefore you would not see any increased splash damage?

 

thanks for the effort on this guys it would be great to sort it out.....

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November 30, 2010 11:12:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Don't know where it came from, but 1 is true if you're talking about the damage the towers do to both DGs and creeps, and 2 is true, except that the positive damage radius increase of the upgrade does also affect ToLs, so they get increased damage radius and damage output.

I honestly haven't ever witnessed the arrow tower splash damage, but it should be there according to the code.  Kind of a pointless thing it would seem, but as long as the upgrade helps ToLs, I guess it doesn't matter whether or not arrows get splash.

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November 30, 2010 11:42:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

cheers. definitely worth the 500 imo...

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December 1, 2010 12:49:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Don't know where it came from

dito - to be honest, its something I've heard from 1 or more tier 1 players and then communicated to other folks myself.  I always thought it was true (that tower upgrades were generally bad). 

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December 1, 2010 3:36:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, it was one of the first things rawrrr and hedgie taught me: don't die and never upgrade towers, son! As far as I know, there's no real strategy developed for tower upgrades ATM, but the upgrade will probably find its niche in higher level games: if it's working as intended, there is no reason to neglect it. Mid players are much more inertia-driven, so I don't expect to see anyone upgrading towers in mid games anytime soon.

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December 1, 2010 11:40:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting IN1,
Mid players are much more inertia-driven, so I don't expect to see anyone upgrading towers in mid games anytime soon.
I take offense to this.

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December 1, 2010 12:27:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I take offense to this.

 

You consider yourself a mid player? All right, then.

Special Blackmage Edition:

"Mid players, OMG_blackmage excluded, of course, are much more inertia-driven, so I don't expect to see anyone, save OMG_blackmage, evidently, upgrading towers in mid games anytime soon."

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December 1, 2010 12:36:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_pacov,

dito - to be honest, its something I've heard from 1 or more tier 1 players and then communicated to other folks myself.  I always thought it was true (that tower upgrades were generally bad). 

Came directly from Hedgie.   I disagreed once and he got upset and started going off about code, so I just took his word for it lol

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December 1, 2010 3:13:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting 4Nana,



Quoting OMG_pacov,
reply 17

dito - to be honest, its something I've heard from 1 or more tier 1 players and then communicated to other folks myself.  I always thought it was true (that tower upgrades were generally bad). 


Came directly from Hedgie.   I disagreed once and he got upset and started going off about code, so I just took his word for it lol

I was about to say that I believe hedgie, the god of all dg related knowledge, found this in the code and said the upgrade was broken. So I took it for truth because hedige is always right when it came down to code related questions like priest heals, etc tec....

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December 1, 2010 3:42:43 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Guess we'll have to banish him to play DoW2... oh wait...

T'was that hedgehog that fooled us all. 

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December 1, 2010 4:00:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting IN1,
I take offense to this.

 

You consider yourself a mid player? All right, then.

Special Blackmage Edition:

"Mid players, OMG_blackmage excluded, of course, are much more inertia-driven, so I don't expect to see anyone, save OMG_blackmage, evidently, upgrading towers in mid games anytime soon."
I thought everyone viewed me as a mid player

 

Quoting OMG_ZEX,



Quoting 4Nana,
reply 21



Quoting OMG_pacov,
reply 17

dito - to be honest, its something I've heard from 1 or more tier 1 players and then communicated to other folks myself.  I always thought it was true (that tower upgrades were generally bad). 


Came directly from Hedgie.   I disagreed once and he got upset and started going off about code, so I just took his word for it lol



I was about to say that I believe hedgie, the god of all dg related knowledge, found this in the code and said the upgrade was broken. So I took it for truth because hedige is always right when it came down to code related questions like priest heals, etc tec....

He isn't, because he can't argue the art behind demigod, thats my territory!

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