[MOD] CrazyTown Package ver 0.8

By on August 19, 2010 10:35:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

LORD-ORION

Join Date 04/2009
+51

CrazyTown is now a complete package and ver 0.8 is available here.

What do I mean by complete package? It includes other important mods to let you hit the ground running and have fun. If you want to play multiplayer, you're good to go without sorting through the cause of invalid gamestates. If you want to play singleplayer, skirmish AIs can let you try out the changes.

Inside
Enhanced AI with many new builds specific to crazytown
Enhanced UI Mod Package
Occulus Bugfixes from Uberfix

Many thanks to the modders who put these mods together- Ptarth, miriyaka, pacov, peppe, Bman, Chairmaya and Gunblob

*********************** Demigod Changes ver 0.8 ********************************************

Version 0.8 is a performance enhancement release. Mod files are trimmed down as much as possible to prevent unnecessary overwrites when the game loads.


DA
Base Speed 6.3
Warp strike is an interrupt
Elusiveness:  +5 to vision radius
Elusiveness Demon Speed Synergy: 1 point of Elusiveness protects 1 point of Demon's Speed from being snareable
Demon Speed = 5% Attack Speed per Level
Warp Area 1 = 350 damage, warp area II = 600 damage

QoT
Entourage: +10 damage + 100 armor +5% attack speed / level
Siege Damage = 750, 1250, 1750, 2250, Siege range = 25, Siege Cost = 400
Spike Wave Damage 400,650,900 wave 3 = 10 cooldown from 15
Mulch explosion is 0.5 seconds from trigger
Compost Damage Buff Progression = 6,12,18,36,54

Reg
DeadEye: Activated on Snipe
Impedance Bolt: Activated on Snipe
Mark of the Betrayer: Interrupt on Application
Scope Adds 8/12/16 to vision Radius
Fury Adds 5% movement speed when active
Maim Lasts 4 seconds

TB
Ice Nova Stun 1.3, 2.3, 3.3 seconds, transition delay set to 0.3 from 0.6, for a net stun of 1,2,3 seconds.
Snare on Frost Nova scales properly to be in effect for 4 seconds after the freeze is done on a demi-god
Frost Nova Will Interrupt a hero (cooldown is reset on skill / item if interrupted)
Transition to fire mode movement the same as ice mode now
Fire Nova Blinds for 3/4/5 seconds.

Sedna
Yetis: Damage +30 / level, Life + 400 / level
Inner Grace: 5% / 10% / 15% dodge
Life's Child = Proc on 50% life

Unclean Beast
Bestial Wrath Duration = 10
Unrelenting Wrath Duration = 15
Plague 1 = 20 Damage
Plague 2 = 30 Damage

Oak
Rally: Duration 10 seconds, so 2000 health and longer armor bonus.
Soul Power II & III = +5%, +10% attack speed


Rook:
Poison Arrow = slow 15%

LE:
Poison Blood II = 30 health per second

Occ- Ball Lightning
Cost 250, 375, 500, 625
Damage 35,70,105,140

****************** Item Changes

Duelist's: 2000
Armor of Vengeance: 2250
Crusader: 2500 + 3% chance
Groffling: 5% chance

Plate Visor: 50% mana
Theurgists's Hat: 15% chance, +100% mana
Vinling Helmet: 2500 gold +100% mana

Footman's Sabatons: 200 Armor
Assassin's Foot guards: 1250 gold
Iron Walkers: +600 Armor 1750 gold, speed trigger is 5.3
Desperate Boots: 2250: Health is under 50% - Dodge is +25%, speed is +10%

Wyrmskin: 750 gold
Gauntlet's of Despair: 600 gold
Slayers Wraps: 1750 gold
DoomSpite Grips: 2750, Cleave Size = 1.8, Proc Chance 50%
Fell-Darkur: 2750

Forestband = 550
Warlord's Punisher: 1750, CastItem animation= 1 sec (was incorrectly set at 2), Range 20
Twig of Life: 2250
Ring of the Ancients: 1750 Effect is a friendly DG aura
WarpStone: Instant: Cost 2750
Magus Rod 2250
Blood Stone Ring 1500

****************** Favor Changes

Goggles- Ranged Special effect Proc Rates the same as melee, 25% chance to do 25% critical hit
Magical Coin Purse: +2 gold per tick
Charm of life: Regen Aura = +10 health / second
Brillant Bauble- 15% XP bonus aura
Symbol of Purity: Heal 500 on use
Staff of the Warmage: +100% mana per second
Diamond Pendant- -10% cooldown is an aura
Amulet of Teleportation: Cooldown = 30
Cape of Mana: Cool Down = 30
Saam-El's cape: +10% speed
Wings of the Seraphim: Cool Down = 30

Poison Dagger: +15% attack speed
Mard's Hammer: +400 armor, +50 damage
Essence of Magic: Timer = 5
Furious Blade: 50% Cleave Attack, 10% attack speed

Totem of War: +20 damage; Aura All nearby allies: +5 damage +10% attack rate, +5% movement
Tome of Endurance +600 Life. +10 regen
Pendant of Grace" +5% movement, +5% attack speed
Blood Soaked Wand: 1 second cast, 30 second refresh

Angels
Damage = 90
Target Priority List 1: Cata 2: Hero 3: Everything

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August 19, 2010 10:35:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

NT- New ToDo list to be filled in later

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August 19, 2010 11:34:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Overall price decreases are good, since it makes "winner keep winning" a little weaker since everyone can afford stuff.

Crusader and Groffling procs off of Arrow towers, minions and also creeps. You know Rook's Arrow upgrade? They shoot 12 times a second. With your 2250 you have a 5% chance to heal 300. Platemail of the Crusader is an ideal "anti-minion" item because of the high hp regen + decently high armor and the proc chance. It could be 2 or 3% and still work as an ideal mid or late game minion build counter item without going off the wall. So Crusader is probably OP in those matchups with a 5% proc rate.

Theurgist's is too cheap for minion builds. 200 minion HP + 3 minion hps for 750 gold? Either make it a "regen assassination" item (anti-Sedna, basically), or make it a minion-focused item, espiecially since it gives minion users more % mana per second which is important for a Spirit Oak. 

Vinling is now probably just flat out better than Plenor for the same price. Vinling gives 525 less mana pool, but has the 350 mana proc at 5%. See archer towers, minion builds, and creeps above. It would screw up Erebus mirrors in particular. It would be a VERY bad thing to level up Coven in Erebus versus Erebus. I would recommend leaving the current effects the same but dropping the price to 2k. 

Footman's is weird... I could see it as a good investment for minion users with its current status and reduced price for minion items. I would rather improve it and leave it at its current price, however. Make it a "generalist" 600 gold item. Gives 300 armor, 300 HP, 300 Mana, and +2 mps. It's worse than scailmail (and 150 more) for armor, it's worse than Banded for regen and HP, and it's worse than Scaled Helm for mana regen and mana pool. But it gives a little bit of everything. 

Assassins Footguards is a bit of a slippery slope... Question for you. Which is better? Increasing your dodge from 10 to 20 or from 80 to 90? 80 to 90 BY FAR. 10 to 20 reduces your incoming damage by roughly 11%. Which is worth a couple hundred armor. 80 to 90 reduces your incoming damage by 50%. Which is a LOT of armor. Sedna or DA with Amulet of Teleportation/Pendent of Grace/Furious Blade + Assassins Footguards + Inner Grace/Demon Dodge could be a little over the top. 

Does this mod include the changes to Iron Walkers? To make them correctly turn off. And also to go at 5.0 instead of 5.5? Those are pretty important changes... Actually, you should really just integrate Uberfix into this mod... 

Fell-Darkur price decrease is risky. Those gloves are g'damn amazing and with all these new crazy cheap minion builds... hmm. Dunno. Scary. 

You should look at the prices of the pots at the artifact shop. Those could be used as a substitute for sigils and makes the XP slightly more important to keep control over.

I'm glad you didn't nerf BotF. (:

Brillant Bauble is interesting... has a potential problem with Acclimation or Bulwark of the Ages. A UB with all three of these... would have 75% reduction of incoming damage! 

Symbol of Purity is pretty good now. I use it as Oak as it is. It does give 250 HP (: 

Cape of Plentiful Mana would affect your allies as well, correct? Is risky on Leviation with a Sedna/UB combination. 

Does Wings give a "flat" 10% mitigation increase? or does it increase your current armor by 10%

I would rather BSW give mana as well rather than a life steal... 

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Forceful Blows "double hits" creeps. Which makes it mostly useless :/ You could have him have a life-drain from it instead. 

Elusiveness - how would that work with the "new Pounce"? 

DA should start at 6.5 speed

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Reg should start at 6.5 speed

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Fire Nova does not need to be an interrupt. Fuck no. I was iffy about Mark of the Betrayer (Spike Wave too but not so much). Fire Nova does not need that. 

Ice Nova doesn't need to be buffed. OP The only "weak" level is level 1. Levels 2 and 3 are fine. 

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Yetis are still useless

Pounce pinning is OP. Magnificent Presence. 

Inner Grace might be worth it now and gives her a good counter to minion builds. 

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Blast Off used to be an Interrupt while he was in Beta. It was OP beyond belief. Occulus does not struggle as it is and we do not need to homogenize every demigod. 

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UB should still have his natural speed moved to 6, and have it moved to Inner Beast

Plague should only "tick" every 2 or 3 seconds but the damage dealt should be increased by 2/3. This is so you can use it without slowing down the game (it is pretty decent)

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Can Rook attack while moving now? Poison Arrows doesn't need to be 100% if that's the case. He has the highest damaging auto-attack in the game. 

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August 20, 2010 1:12:40 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i want screenshots

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August 20, 2010 7:22:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

>>Overall price decreases are good, since it makes "winner keep winning" a little weaker since everyone can afford stuff.

Most of the decreases are on the crap items, that might still not be as good as taking the standards like Nimoth, Unbreaklable and Vlemish.


>>Crusader and Groffling procs off of Arrow towers, minions and also creeps. You know Rook's Arrow upgrade? They shoot 12 times a second. With your 2250 you have a 5% chance to heal 300. Platemail of the Crusader is an ideal "anti-minion" item because of the high hp regen + decently high armor and the proc chance. It could be 2 or 3% and still work as an ideal mid or late game minion build counter item without going off the wall. So Crusader is probably OP in those matchups with a 5% proc rate.

Didn't have a problem in test game, but of course this is still a possibility. But... If you think the health proc will save you being that close to Rook you are surely mistaken. Also, mana is of no use when you are near dead. Finally, Tower Strength splash is fixed so expect BS1 early. Really. You dont want to be the target of an arrow tower, let alone try and proc effects off of one.


>>Theurgist's is too cheap for minion builds. 200 minion HP + 3 minion hps for 750 gold? Either make it a "regen assassination" item (anti-Sedna, basically), or make it a minion-focused item, espiecially since it gives minion users more % mana per second which is important for a Spirit Oak. 


Agreed that it looks like that at first. But the arguments against... There is a significant penalty for taking items that grant you neither mana, health or armor. (and 35% regen is bad for 750). Expect BS1 upgrade, so you need an early possible minion health item if you don't take tome of endurance. As for anti-Sedna only. LE has good regen potential now. Many of the lowered price items offer really good regen that were not ever seen in play before, and there is ring of the Ancients now which is well worth 2500. I was horrified at first.. and then quickly rememberd this item. I see now why they put it in the game. If you stack +regen items and skills (something not really possible before because of cost) things can get pretty crazy when you watch the health bar moving.

Vinling is now probably just flat out better than Plenor for the same price. Vinling gives 525 less mana pool, but has the 350 mana proc at 5%. See archer towers, minion builds, and creeps above. It would screw up Erebus mirrors in particular. It would be a VERY bad thing to level up Coven in Erebus versus Erebus. I would recommend leaving the current effects the same but dropping the price to 2k. 


Low mana pool. Is there a time to take it? Yah. But Plenor I find is still better. Skills do not proc the Proc items, and this I find is where the majority of things you need to worry about come from. Most of the time, you get hit by many AAs only when you aree fleeing a gank, or are in a big battle.


Will review though, but 5% is not much more then 3%, and this item is never taken in games, so rapid mana filling has never been a potential issue. (unless we just never realized it should be)


>>Footman's is weird... I could see it as a good investment for minion users with its current status and reduced price for minion items. I would rather improve it and leave it at its current price, however. Make it a "generalist" 600 gold item. Gives 300 armor, 300 HP, 300 Mana, and +2 mps. It's worse than scailmail (and 150 more) for armor, it's worse than Banded for regen and HP, and it's worse than Scaled Helm for mana regen and mana pool. But it gives a little bit of everything. 

Is it worth what it costs? I actually use it all the time now that I am used to it. If I get kicked out of lane early, adding Scale mail, Plate Visor and Footman's is a no brainer. It is also another choice between what early item a general takes. Monks? TP? Footmans? If it works, why change it? There are plenty of other item combos that fit the description of what you want to turn it into. I actually think this is the best thing going for it.


>.Assassins Footguards is a bit of a slippery slope... Question for you. Which is better? Increasing your dodge from 10 to 20 or from 80 to 90? 80 to 90 BY FAR. 10 to 20 reduces your incoming damage by roughly 11%. Which is worth a couple hundred armor. 80 to 90 reduces your incoming damage by 50%. Which is a LOT of armor. Sedna or DA with Amulet of Teleportation/Pendent of Grace/Furious Blade + Assassins Footguards + Inner Grace/Demon Dodge could be a little over the top. 

Thought of this extensively. Dodge is capped at 40 and does not work against most skills or when you are stunned. All of the dodge items do not grant you health. If you try and hit 40 dodge, you are going to be very vulnerable to skill spam and have low armor. Is it worth it in some cases? For sure. Is it OP? Haven't found a problm yet.
I also toyed with the idea of a few anti-dodge skills. eg: Maybe maim could reduce dodge which makes sense. So could slow skills. (you can't dodge as easily if you can't move fast)


>>Does this mod include the changes to Iron Walkers? To make them correctly turn off. And also to go at 5.0 instead of 5.5? Those are pretty important changes... Actually, you should really just integrate Uberfix into this mod... 

No, that will be on the to do list (along with some of uberfixes integrations) This is an all around terrible item. I will keep it at 5.5 for rook, th only person who might actually waste a slot on this item. I also like mirayaki's % based solution and am thinking about it, but I would still probably not ever take it. What do you think of that solution? (look in my iron walkers bug thread for his solution post)
I am also toying of the idea that this item should effect Rook towers since AA can be easly increased with items now.

Fell-Darkur price decrease is risky. Those gloves are g'damn amazing and with all these new crazy cheap minion builds... hmm. Dunno. Scary. 

Agreed, This is a very good item. However, stacking heavy armor is easier now with certain combos compared to normal DG. Also, even when I want it in normal DG, I can't always justify it in most games unless I am clearly winning. (at which point its awesomeness is skewed to appear more awesome) It is still at the high end of affordability, but may need adjusting. 

>>You should look at the prices of the pots at the artifact shop. Those could be used as a substitute for sigils and makes the XP slightly more important to keep control over.

Was thinking that these could use an overhaul since they aren't used. But the problem. They are also very powerful. I gave it some thought, and I couldn't come up with any good numbers.


>>I'm glad you didn't nerf BotF. (: 

This is the litmus test case. (or lithium, depending on state of mind)


>>Brillant Bauble is interesting... has a potential problem with Acclimation or Bulwark of the Ages. A UB with all three of these... would have 75% reduction of incoming damage! 

Thought process. At what point does damage reducton become better then blood? Many DGs cap out at 6000 HPs late game with a life build. So, 10% reduction is still not as good as blood even near the end of most games. But they are also getting 10% XP. Seems the right amount. 


>>Symbol of Purity is pretty good now. I use it as Oak as it is. It does give 250 HP (: 

Is it better then blood? Not in a focus fire or vs a heavy burst DGs. But, yeah, I have taken it a few times even when I am not facing UB. It is a good solid safe choice. (eg: You can pick it right at the beginning of the match without worrying about a hard couter) and allows an assasin to sort of keep up with monk heals.

>>Cape of Plentiful Mana would affect your allies as well, correct? Is risky on Leviation with a Sedna/UB combination. 

Correct... it is a team kite/suprise gank item with devastating potential. Doesn't look like much on paper to most people... but it is a solid team item for pro players.

>>Does Wings give a "flat" 10% mitigation increase? or does it increase your current armor by 10%

10% armor added to your current value, not damage reduction. It is a QOT item for sure. Shield prevents the heal from breaking. QoT's closed armor bonus goes to 20%. eg: 2000 armor stack becomes 2400 on closed QoT, (would be 2200 armor on anyone else.)

>>I would rather BSW give mana as well rather than a life steal...

Yeah, but it has the blood keyword, so no.  

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>>Forceful Blows "double hits" creeps. Which makes it mostly useless :/ You could have him have a life-drain from it instead.

Keep the ideas coming, this skill needs something. I was toying with a 2 second stun on hit.

 
>>Elusiveness - how would that work with the "new Pounce"? 

Not triggered, pounce is a stun.


>>DA should start at 6.5 speed

Agreed to 6.3, but the current changes are not insignificant, and he has escapes to go with that speed that other speed skills on other DGs cannot combo like. Will wait a bit.
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>> Reg should start at 6.5 speed

I disagree on this. I never though of reg as a kiter. More of a tactical striker. He is also really good as he is now. 
I anything, I think Sedna should be the fast base speed mover on forces of light.


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>>Fire Nova does not need to be an interrupt. Fuck no. I was iffy about Mark of the Betrayer (Spike Wave too but not so much). Fire Nova does not need that. 

No way. All DGs need an interrupt, and fire TB is no exception. TB is for certain tier 1 now, but you need to be a good player. It is also a slow interrupt, only good for probbably for 2+ second casts. There is no way this is OP.

>>Ice Nova doesn't need to be buffed. OP The only "weak" level is level 1. Levels 2 and 3 are fine. 

The thinking. This is on the 5,10,15 skill path. most of the time you will not reach 15, and even at 10, the other competing stuns are better. A level 15 stun that is 0.5 seconds longer then a level 10 stun? (0.2 to TB wih his long follow through delay) Sounds right. Also not OP if we are making TB a tier 1 DG.
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>> Yetis are still useless

OK, damage might be on the low end (480 total at IV) but you probably will not escape them on foot if you need to, and they are hard to take down. Suggestions on damage?

>> Pounce pinning is OP. Magnificent Presence. 

Thought it could be. But pounce is easy to interrupt and grasp is the awesomest skill, so the light side could use something similar and
Sedna is the one to get it. Suggestions?

>> Inner Grace might be worth it now and gives her a good counter to minion builds. 


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>> Blast Off used to be an Interrupt while he was in Beta. It was OP beyond belief. Occulus does not struggle as it is and we do not need to homogenize every demigod.

He needs an interrupt. Occ is poweful, yes, but popping a large potion in combat or locking a flag in his face is not fair. If it is on hit 1, you need to be under him for it to work. He cannot reach out and interrupt you at a distance. Other skill suggstions? Was thinking maybe brainstorm could somehow double as a team skill or anti-Dg skill. (drain mana and interupt when applied to an enemy)
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>>UB should still have his natural speed moved to 6, and have it moved to Inner Beast

No decreases. UB is the poster boy for determing balance increases on other things.

>>Plague should only "tick" every 2 or 3 seconds but the damage dealt should be increased by 2/3. This is so you can use it without slowing down the game (it is pretty decent)

Agreed, plague needs a buff. Thse have not been touched yet because I want to implement uberix for this skill line first. (post morte etc...)
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>>Can Rook attack while moving now? Poison Arrows doesn't need to be 100% if that's the case. He has the highest damaging auto-attack in the game. 

No, still same problem, he needs to be right on top of you for the AA to trigger if you are both moving. I find if arrows always proc, it is a good pick. There is not much wiggle room here, it either alays procs or dosn't proc in which case you get pissed for taking the skill when someone escapes you on foot.

Wow, you had alot to say. Thanks for aking the time. But I can't but notice you didn't dowload it.

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August 20, 2010 9:12:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

MoveSlowCap is totally useless, because it's based off of base speed.  In other words, 'cannot be slowed more than 10%' means -10% of base, or 5.4 for a 6.0 demigod, which is still quite slow.  If you have +20% speed, this means it doesn't even come into account until you've been slowed 30% from your 'normal' speed.  The only snares that would even have a chance of running into this limit on DA are Penitence IV, Hammer Slam IV + Dizzying, and Mark of the Betrayer III.

I made an attempt at changing this, but gave up when I realized it would require a total rewrite of the buff affect system to treat positive speed buffs differently than negative buffs, and 'permanent' buffs differently than duration buffs.

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August 20, 2010 10:40:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Lol the "Crazy" word in the mod title is more than appropriate, you've gone a bit overboard buffing things and decrasing prices

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Warp Are buffs might have gone too far, hitting 8 targets for 400 damage at lvl 5, plus inmunity for 3.2 secs max is probably the best AOE skill in the game at lvl5. But DA is so weak early-mid game compared to the big ones i wont complain too much

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Reg is nowhere near T1 even with all those buffs. MotB interrupt is a must, but he also needs a base speed increase to 6.3. In addition, snipe scales horribly, it needs a 1-2 secs decrease in cooldown per lvl so it becomes more spammable the more you lvl it up, maybe even a cast time decrease too.

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Fire Torch Bearer doesn't need any buff nor interrupt. All torch Bearer needs is a better-faster Ice-to-Fire stance change, and a faster cast time (0.5 secs) for Frost Nova besides that transition delay decrease.

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August 20, 2010 10:52:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting miriyaka,
MoveSlowCap is totally useless, because it's based off of base speed.  In other words, 'cannot be slowed more than 10%' means -10% of base, or 5.4 for a 6.0 demigod, which is still quite slow.  If you have +20% speed, this means it doesn't even come into account until you've been slowed 30% from your 'normal' speed.  The only snares that would even have a chance of running into this limit on DA are Penitence IV, Hammer Slam IV + Dizzying, and Mark of the Betrayer III.

I made an attempt at changing this, but gave up when I realized it would require a total rewrite of the buff affect system to treat positive speed buffs differently than negative buffs, and 'permanent' buffs differently than duration buffs.


Didn't know that. What if we set it to a negative number and describe the hard number you cannot be slowed against? eg: Cannot be slowed more then speed 6, speed 6.6, speed 7.2.
Does this mean unrelenting wrath only works to speed 6.3?

Saam-El's cloak will probably need an adjustment too

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August 20, 2010 10:52:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_nomilarac,
Lol the "Crazy" word in the mod title is more than appropriate, you've gone a bit overboard buffing things and decrasing prices

Provide details on what you think please. Like what you did with the other things you mentioned.

Of course, things will seem very crazy since the changes are quite broad, and I can tell you, I have made 4 other balance mods before, and it takes about 10 tries to get it mostly right once relesed.

Reg is nowhere near T1 even with all those buffs. MotB interrupt is a must, but he also needs a base speed increase to 6.3. In addition, snipe scales horribly, it needs a 1-2 secs decrease in cooldown per lvl so it becomes more spammable the more you lvl it up, maybe even a cast time decrease too.

I have seen some very good Regs and they are what i am thinking of. It is possible Reg is still a little weak... but he is vastly improved with the interrupt, and the level 15 snipe procs are amazing. (eg: Stop a portal lock at range from the mist)

I also thought I would give deadeye a 50% chance 2X critical on snipes, like deadly warp, but could not make it work. I am exchanging PMs with Miriyaka on the issue. I could not get crits to work on any other skills like deadlywarp but it could be I am doing it wrong.

 

Fire Torch Bearer doesn't need any buff nor interrupt.
Yes, he is still a weak ass DG in the meta game,.. fire TB cannot take on the 4. eg: All pro players. UB, LE, Oak, vs Oak, Rook and... Fire TB... guess which team is about to get raped.

All torch Bearer needs is a better-faster Ice-to-Fire stance change,
Already Granted, try it.

and a faster cast time (0.5 secs) for Frost Nova besides that transition delay decrease. 

That is more OP then a 0,5 stun increase for a 5,0,15 skill with a 0.3 follow through... mass stuns need to be interruptible.

 

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August 20, 2010 2:13:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting LORD-ORION,
Didn't know that. What if we set it to a negative number and describe the hard number you cannot be slowed against? eg: Cannot be slowed more then speed 6, speed 6.6, speed 7.2.
Does this mean unrelenting wrath only works to speed 6.3?

Saam-El's cloak will probably need an adjustment too

Yes, Unrelenting caps it at base speed (6.3), while Saam-El's caps it at 0.85 (1.0 + -0.15) of base speed (5.35).

Something I never considered before now is that the current negative slow cap actually stacks negatively - that is, all of the multipliers (usually negative) are added together, and multiplied by base speed, to set the minimum.  This means that while Unrelenting sets your minimum to 6.3, if you have Saam-El's, they add together:  1.0 + (-0.15) + (0.0) = 0.85, or the same as just Saam-El's, essentially canceling out Unrelenting.  Whoops!  If you actually had multiple negative MoveSlowCap items, they'd actually worsen each other.  Haha.

So yes, positive numbers can work, but only when paired and matched with a speed buff.  For Saam-El's, 0.05 MoveMult and 0.05 MoveSlowCap would give you an enforced minimum speed at the cloak's boosted amount (base + 5%).  Since you're adding speed bonuses to Wrath, that could work with Unrelenting too.  Just don't add it to too many items or abilities, since it really hurts some already crappy snares (like UB's Diseased Claws, Reg's Maim, and TB's Frost Aura).

With this in mind, I'd find some other way to do Elusiveness + Demon's Speed, otherwise a positive MoveSlowCap on Elusiveness could be used to add speed without even getting Demon's Speed, and make Demon's Speed not actually add speed beyond the same level of Elusiveness - if that makes sense.

 

Edit: In case I didn't make it clear, 0.05 MoveSlowCap will force +5% speed, whether or not you have that speed bonus.  So just make sure the same items that give MoveSlowCap give as much or more speed, and don't overdo it.

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August 20, 2010 3:21:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

@ LORD-ORION

sorry bro but i need a really good reason to launch Demigod again, so i won't try your MOD for the moment, and this probably Hedgie's case too. That's why i'm not reading and commenting your mod changes comprehensively too, not your fault

BUT. Reading things like "reg is very good as he is now" or "torch is still a weak ass" makes me think you don't know the game nearly as well as you seem to think.

Just talking about regulus, you're very wrong if you think you've fixed him with those lvl15 procs besides the MotB interrupt. For starters, reg is a low XP - low Gold Demigod by nature. He can't hold lanes so he's either with a friendly demigod in a lane, sharing xp-gold, or in between lanes sniping the far lane, so he rarely gets to lvl15.

What else do we have before we reach that lvl15? A useful interrupt in MotB, and a barely useful armor decrease in maim. If you really think that makes reg a nearly T1 DG you're very very wrong, any half-good Fire TB will still eat alive the Best reg you've seen.

Ah well.

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August 20, 2010 3:46:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have Sunday Monday and Tuesday off if anyone wants to play a few games with the mod then

Obviously playing with comps will only show so much.

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August 20, 2010 6:27:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting nomilarac,
@ LORD-ORION

sorry bro but i need a really good reason to launch Demigod again, so i won't try your MOD for the moment, and this probably Hedgie's case too. That's why i'm not reading and commenting your mod changes comprehensively too, not your fault

BUT. Reading things like "reg is very good as he is now" or "torch is still a weak ass" makes me think you don't know the game nearly as well as you seem to think.

Just talking about regulus, you're very wrong if you think you've fixed him with those lvl15 procs besides the MotB interrupt. For starters, reg is a low XP - low Gold Demigod by nature. He can't hold lanes so he's either with a friendly demigod in a lane, sharing xp-gold, or in between lanes sniping the far lane, so he rarely gets to lvl15.

What else do we have before we reach that lvl15? A useful interrupt in MotB, and a barely useful armor decrease in maim. If you really think that makes reg a nearly T1 DG you're very very wrong, any half-good Fire TB will still eat alive the Best reg you've seen.

Ah well.

You're not making any arguments on TB, why? That is not productive so I wonder what motive you have.

Arguments in favor of Reg being T1 good.

Alot of AA items are accessible now that weren't before.
There are alot of utility items now available that weren't before.
MoTB is a double skill now. Interrupt + AoE Damage + Snare stopping 1 skill and punishing you for the second. This is Pen level good.
Snipe + 0.3 Second stun is a game ending skill in the hands of good players. You missed the mark severely with this one... -The scenario... your team has been routed from the lane and must now lock your portal. You have a big ass problem now, you can't see the snipe, so there is a good chance you are going to get interrupted locking your portal. You can't jig because the ones that caused the routing are on your ass and will interrupt you too when they close the distance. This happens ALOT.

This is also a shenanigans buster. Oak is not going to shield to relock the portal from an unseen attacker. (if he does you can trap him the same way when he TPs) You can interrupt him from the mist to regain your portal.

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August 20, 2010 6:47:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting miriyaka,

Quoting LORD-ORION, reply 7Didn't know that. What if we set it to a negative number and describe the hard number you cannot be slowed against? eg: Cannot be slowed more then speed 6, speed 6.6, speed 7.2.
Does this mean unrelenting wrath only works to speed 6.3?

Saam-El's cloak will probably need an adjustment too
Yes, Unrelenting caps it at base speed (6.3), while Saam-El's caps it at 0.85 (1.0 + -0.15) of base speed (5.35).

Something I never considered before now is that the current negative slow cap actually stacks negatively - that is, all of the multipliers (usually negative) are added together, and multiplied by base speed, to set the minimum.  This means that while Unrelenting sets your minimum to 6.3, if you have Saam-El's, they add together:  1.0 + (-0.15) + (0.0) = 0.85, or the same as just Saam-El's, essentially canceling out Unrelenting.  Whoops!  If you actually had multiple negative MoveSlowCap items, they'd actually worsen each other.  Haha.

So yes, positive numbers can work, but only when paired and matched with a speed buff.  For Saam-El's, 0.05 MoveMult and 0.05 MoveSlowCap would give you an enforced minimum speed at the cloak's boosted amount (base + 5%).  Since you're adding speed bonuses to Wrath, that could work with Unrelenting too.  Just don't add it to too many items or abilities, since it really hurts some already crappy snares (like UB's Diseased Claws, Reg's Maim, and TB's Frost Aura).

With this in mind, I'd find some other way to do Elusiveness + Demon's Speed, otherwise a positive MoveSlowCap on Elusiveness could be used to add speed without even getting Demon's Speed, and make Demon's Speed not actually add speed beyond the same level of Elusiveness - if that makes sense.

 

Edit: In case I didn't make it clear, 0.05 MoveSlowCap will force +5% speed, whether or not you have that speed bonus.  So just make sure the same items that give MoveSlowCap give as much or more speed, and don't overdo it.

Yeah I get it... usually I would get both at the same time or speed first, this is why I didn't notice it. Math fail.

Elusiveness needs a rework clearly..

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August 20, 2010 7:04:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting GM-Zen_God,
i want screenshots

What if I made some showcase videos? Would that be cool?

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August 20, 2010 7:10:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's possible to make Elusiveness give MoveSlowCap based on the lowest common denominator of its level and Demon's Speed's level, creating even more symbiosis between them.  It'd be a bit trickier to implement, and harder to explain in the description, but it's doable.

e.g. if you have Elusiveness 1 and Demon's Speed 3, you would get a MoveSlowCap bonus equal to Speed 1.  With Speed 2 and Elusiveness 3, a bonus equal to Speed 2.  With Speed 3 and no Elusiveness, no bonus.

 

Edit: Done and tested, if you want to use it. http://pastebin.com/RNp7ydZ0

This goes in HDemon_Abilities.lua.  If you're destructively overriding, put it at the end.

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August 20, 2010 7:55:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting miriyaka,
It's possible to make Elusiveness give MoveSlowCap based on the lowest common denominator of its level and Demon's Speed's level, creating even more symbiosis between them.  It'd be a bit trickier to implement, and harder to explain in the description, but it's doable.

e.g. if you have Elusiveness 1 and Demon's Speed 3, you would get a MoveSlowCap bonus equal to Speed 1.  With Speed 2 and Elusiveness 3, a bonus equal to Speed 2.  With Speed 3 and no Elusiveness, no bonus.

 

Edit: Done and tested, if you want to use it. http://pastebin.com/RNp7ydZ0

This goes in HDemon_Abilities.lua.  If you're destructively overriding, put it at the end.

Awesomesauce, thanks very much for that, it is greatly appreciated. Everything will be destructive for now, it is faster to try things that way. (for me anways). In the end, making it all non-destructive will probably be the way to go. Even now, I can tell it stutters a bit when loading.

1 question now...what about Saam-el's cloak with this?
The -15 cap is going to royally mess things up.
Just thinking what is the best way to do it?

Or Saam-El's cloak with unrelenting wrath?

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August 20, 2010 8:20:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Set it to 0.0 or 0.05.  Anything non-negative is fine.

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August 20, 2010 8:21:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Didn't have a problem in test game, but of course this is still a possibility. But... If you think the health proc will save you being that close to Rook you are surely mistaken. Also, mana is of no use when you are near dead. Finally, Tower Strength splash is fixed so expect BS1 early. Really. You dont want to be the target of an arrow tower, let alone try and proc effects off of one. 

Rook's archer towers shoot 6 arrows a volley, 2 volleys a second, dealing 5 damage each arrow. That comes out to 60 dps (mitigated by armor), and 12 "hits". If you get the "Tower of Light" upgrade at level 5, you increase the number of arrows per volley to 12, and they each deal 7 damage which comes to 168 dps, mitigated by armor, and 24 "hits". 

If you have a 5% proc rate and you have 30% mitigation at the time (not hard, since Platemail of the Crusader gives +1000 armor), you're taking 42 or 112 dps. You have a proc chance of "60%" or "120%" since it can keep procing each time. That means that Rook is "giving" you 120 or 192 hps (that includes your incoming damage assuming you have NO mitigation whatsoever. If you have armor that number increases) by having arrows. 

That doesn't even include creeps/minions/towers/demigods that may be wailing on you as well (though that's not quite such of a big deal). 

Groffling shares this same "problem", but it costs more than twice the price, and has a shield that doesn't offer mitigation. The only time Groffling's proc would be better than Crusader's is if you are at full hp. 

If you reduce the proc rate to 3%, then you drop to 48 hps or 56 hps (assuming no mitigation, so it would be higher). This is reasonable (look at Narmoth's) and makes it a decent counter without getting absurd. It already provides good health per second and armor and provides one of the best minion hp bonuses as well. 

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Agreed that it looks like that at first. But the arguments against... There is a significant penalty for taking items that grant you neither mana, health or armor. (and 35% regen is bad for 750). Expect BS1 upgrade, so you need an early possible minion health item if you don't take tome of endurance. As for anti-Sedna only. LE has good regen potential now. Many of the lowered price items offer really good regen that were not ever seen in play before, and there is ring of the Ancients now which is well worth 2500. I was horrified at first.. and then quickly rememberd this item. I see now why they put it in the game. If you stack +regen items and skills (something not really possible before because of cost) things can get pretty crazy when you watch the health bar moving.

Minion users don't care about mana pool, health, OR armor. Spirit Oak needs a decent regen to keep placing wards, but that's pretty much it, and minion users don't tend to keep monks around them and are at risk against long-ranged characters and attacks (Fireball, Rain of Ice into Fog of War, Snipe). Hence why the +35% mps and +10 hps is useful. The proc is useful for Erebus hybrid-minion builds that level up Coven and get Bite instead of Morale. 

The minion bonus is currently as good as Haubrek is. For a 750 gold item, it needs to have a dedicated role. It should either be dedicated for minion users, generally good for the average build, or dedicated for "anti-regen". Right now it's awesome for minion users, shitty for the average build, and is sorta "meh" for anti-regen. Various abilities will clear it, and regen doesn't get off the charts for quite a while, even with your changes. 
You should dedicate it:
a) remove the hps and %mps, and keep it how it is (still great for minion builds) 
remove the minon health bonuses but improve the hps and mps.
c) remove the minion health bonuses but improve the proc to 10%, or make it tied to your skills (eg, every time you use a skill, apply that debuff to everything it hits. Maybe make the debuff only last 3 or 5 seconds). 
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Low mana pool. Is there a time to take it? Yah. But Plenor I find is still better. Skills do not proc the Proc items, and this I find is where the majority of things you need to worry about come from. Most of the time, you get hit by many AAs only when you aree fleeing a gank, or are in a big battle.


Will review though, but 5% is not much more then 3%, and this item is never taken in games, so rapid mana filling has never been a potential issue. (unless we just never realized it should be)

525 is not "low" mana pool. It's just "less" than Plenor. It's only one more skill at that point of the game. The problem is mostly with Erebus. Irek used to actually SELL both his helms and get Vinling when catapults come out. He would then go into the middle of enemy creep waves, and use bite on the minions to stay alive. He could go from near-empty on mana to full in a few seconds. However that was before HP stacking really caught on. 
5% is actually a LOT more than 3%. 
I only see this item screwing up Erebus mirrors (and Erebus in general with synergy of intentionally running into creepwaves, biting them to regain HP, filling up mana bar, then Batswarming them to kill them all). That's it. 6 Nightcrawlers add 3 "hits" a second (60 dps, mitigated). 3 hits a second @ 5% means that - just from Coven - the Erebus that got Vinling instead of Plenor will get 350 mana every 6.7 seconds (This doesn't include autoattacks from Erebus, monks, or creepwaves either). It takes two procs to make up the mana difference of Plenor, so it would even out after about 2 bites. The 1050 mana on Vinling is more than enough for 2 bites. 
This means that the Erebus with Vinling will always beat the Erebus with Plenor assuming they both got one point in Coven. If the Plenor Erebus didn't get one point in Coven, then it would be more equal. 
Changing it from 5% back down to 3% would probably balance it. Plenor would still probably be better for just about everyone else in the game, except for Erebus and Plenor is better in 3v3 dogfights than Vinling (which, in turn, is better for 1v1 lane skirmishes). 
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I'll take your word on Footmans. It is sorta weird, but whatever. It does have a unique role in the game now. 
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Thought of this extensively. Dodge is capped at 40 and does not work against most skills or when you are stunned. All of the dodge items do not grant you health. If you try and hit 40 dodge, you are going to be very vulnerable to skill spam and have low armor. Is it worth it in some cases? For sure. Is it OP? Haven't found a problm yet.

I also toyed with the idea of a few anti-dodge skills. eg: Maybe maim could reduce dodge which makes sense. So could slow skills. (you can't dodge as easily if you can't move fast)

I know dodge doesn't proc on skills (except Spit). I did forget it was capped at 40 and didn't know it didn't work while stunned. 

Having low armor with dodge doesn't really matter since dodge is roughly equal (and multiplies) armor. Please read here: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/365017

Ptarth does an excellent job doing a mathematical analysis of the similar and dissimilar benefits of armor and dodge and when one is better and worse. 
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I am also toying of the idea that this item should effect Rook towers since AA can be easly increased with items now.
That is a terrible idea. Don't do that. 
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Agreed, This is a very good item. However, stacking heavy armor is easier now with certain combos compared to normal DG. Also, even when I want it in normal DG, I can't always justify it in most games unless I am clearly winning. (at which point its awesomeness is skewed to appear more awesome) It is still at the high end of affordability, but may need adjusting.
The benefit of Fell-Darkur is not the proc, nor is it the +30 Weapon Damage (although those are pretty good, just not worth 3500g in the vanilla game). It's the +8 minion damage and 5% minion attack speed.  Increasing armor on the demigods is not the entire solution. By reducing the cost by 1250 they can get them roughly 2 minutes earlier (assuming Currency prices). This is aggravated even more with the overall reduction of other minion items. 
Once a RoDM minion user gets Gloves of Brutality + Gloves of Fell-Darkur they will melt every tower and then destroy your citadel in minutes. Playing against RoDM users (especially in 1v1 and 2v2) is a race against time as they need to get about 8k gold worth of items before they start raping everything (berserkers + monks + siege demolishers + Gloves of Fell-Darkur + Gloves of Brutality)
Either buff the proc/weapon damage and nerf the minion damage, or leave the price as it is (3500g).
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Was thinking that these could use an overhaul since they aren't used. But the problem. They are also very powerful. I gave it some thought, and I couldn't come up with any good numbers.

Reduce their benefits while reducing their price. They don't necassarily have to be heal the same amount as they do now. Since regen builds may be more feasible, sigils will be getting indirectly nerfed anyway which means these may see more use. 

An interesting way to balance it would actually to make them cost EXACTLY the same amount as the potions in the item shop, but make them better. (eg, instead of 750 hp, 1250). If you make them powerful (without being too nuts) it actually makes that shop worth fighting for because then you can have the "awesome pots". 

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Thought process. At what point does damage reducton become better then blood? Many DGs cap out at 6000 HPs late game with a life build. So, 10% reduction is still not as good as blood even near the end of most games. But they are also getting 10% XP. Seems the right amount.

See the damage/armor discussion I posted above. Flat-out damage reduction is even MORE dangerous since it affects skills, and stacks multiplicatively with both armor and dodge. 10% Reduction also is more than just 10% hp... First of all, it's actually 11% (9/10ths damage == 10/9ths health). Second, it basically gives a +11% bonus to monk heals and natural HP regen (and sigils). Third is just the nasty armor bonuses. 

It might be balanced out just fine, but it's a very scary and fine line. 

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Agreed to 6.3, but the current changes are not insignificant, and he has escapes to go with that speed that other speed skills on other DGs cannot combo like. Will wait a bit.
It was a typo. Both Reg and DA should have been 6.3 not 6.5. I was thinking the 5% bonus to movement speed. 
Sedna, as a squishy (in terms of having shit for hp, she can tank plenty fine) melee does tend to benefit a fair amount from speed. However, giving her a natural speed advantage is dangerous, in particular since she has Inner Grace already. She doesn't need to be the fastest demigod in the game (natural +5%, then +15% from skills). Reg and DA should be.
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No way. All DGs need an interrupt, and fire TB is no exception. TB is for certain tier 1 now, but you need to be a good player. It is also a slow interrupt, only good for probbably for 2+ second casts. There is no way this is OP.
This is where you and I are never going to agree. I do not believe that every demigod needs an interrupt (see Occulus, he performs just fine without one). If you choose to do a build that gives up one of TWO interrupts willingly, you did a cost-benefit analysis and that was what you choose. It is no different than an Erebus leveling up Coven or Mist instead of Mass Charm, or a Sedna who gives up Pounce for Inner Grace. Just because you choose to do something does not mean you get to be coddled in other ways. TB does not need three interrupts.

Heal doesn't get to interrupt because I don't have Pounce. Neither should Fire Nova because you didn't get Frost Nova. Even if it is "slow" it is still an AoE interrupt (which screws up melee attacks, if nothing else). Fire Nova also has MASSIVE range. 
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The thinking. This is on the 5,10,15 skill path. most of the time you will not reach 15, and even at 10, the other competing stuns are better. A level 15 stun that is 0.5 seconds longer then a level 10 stun? (0.2 to TB wih his long follow through delay) Sounds right. Also not OP if we are making TB a tier 1 DG.
If you're playing TB and the game lasts 20, 25 minutes and you manage to NOT hit level 15, you're playing him wrong. 
The AoE stuns in the game (since AoE should be weaker than single-target): 
Boulder Roll - 15s cooldown - .4 cast + travel time - 250/500/750 damage, 1.5/2/2.5 stun. 560/800/1064 mana
Mass Charm - 20 s cooldown - 1s cast - 0 damage, 1/1.5/2/3 second stun (more for creeps). 450/600/750/900 mana
Silence - 15s cooldown - instant - 3/4/5 second no-abilities. 800/900/1000 mana
Frost Nova - 15s cooldown - .9s cast - 0 damage, 1/2/3 second stun (more for creeps, and stuns towers). -10/15/20 movement debuff. 750/1000/1250 mana. 
So lets compare. Frost Nova has the typical "ultimate" cooldown of 15 seconds. Nothing abnormal about that. 
Cast time is relatively short. Rook has the advantage when stunning someone in melee range because travel time is almost nothing. Silence is instant, but doesn't prevent movement. 
Stun duration is weak, compared to Boulder Roll. However, Frost Nova I is primarily used as anti-building, not anti-demigod. 
Damage can be done using Deep Freeze.
Mana costs are rather high. 
So, Frost Nova I is underwhelming, as I said before. But it works great against Towers which is its primary use. It's just useless for escaping (just like Mass Charm I...). If you want to improve Frost Nova, fix the movement debuff durations. They start while they are stunned, so the -20% movement debuff only "really" lasts 2 seconds. Make the movement debuff last 5/6/7 seconds and you're golden. 
If you feel the need to buff Frost TB, then make Permafrost "shatterable". That gives TB a little bit more damage output and makes a mostly useless Aura better. 
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The problem with Yetis isn't that their damage (even if it is terrible). It's the fact that they cost an assload of mana to res and don't help Sedna do anything. They don't cover any of her flaws (poor damage, low HP, no AoE). Siege Minions, however, DO cover those flaws and can be purchased with gold instead of having to use skill points (as well as costing less mana to summon). 
Yetis need to either be buffed to insane levels, or redesigned to have a purpose that benefits Sedna somehow. 
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Pounce is a .3 second cast. With the command lag of .350 seconds, cannot interrupt it unless you have the ability to view the future. Pounce is easy to ANTICIPATE (oh look, that Sedna is barreling towards me. I wonder what she is going to do.... I should use X ability just before she comes into melee range). It is not easy to interrupt. 
Additionally, you're putting a 1.2 second stun into a level 1 skill that does decent damage, is only 400 mana, and has a 7 second cooldown (which can be further reduced with favor items, skill selections and flags). OP OP OP. 
There are a few reasons why Pounce sucks: 
A) Heal is better in 1v1 fights because it is more mana efficient and Sedna has low HP. 3v3s Pounce tends to win out but that is because outgoing damage is better than reducing incoming damage in 3v3 dogpiles.
B ) Pounce cannot be used properly while chasing unless you have a +15% speed advantage over them (Swift Anklet, max Inner Grace, Pentitence/Bite is snaring) or you have to have Cloak of Night
C) Compared to all the other nukes in the game, its only "secondary" benefit is the interrupt. Fireball has large range and cheap costs. Bite has life drain, snare, and armor debuff. Penitence is ranged, snares, and damage debuffs. Hammer Slam does massive damage. Warp Strike teleports. Spine Attack has long range. This means that no matter how many points you put into Pounce, someone else putting the same amount of points into their "offensive" ability line is doing it better. 
D) 1 point in Pounce is pretty damn awesome. It is dirt-cheap mana wise for an interupt, on a short cooldown and cast, and it does a lot of damage for just one skill point. Putting more points into Pounce just makes it cost more for only a mediocre amount of more damage. Okay. So that isn't really a reason why Pounce sucks. But it's why you rarely put more than one point into pounce until mid-late game. 
If you want to improve Pounce and make it useful while chasing, the most obvious solution is to give her a movement speed buff (or an aura buff, since that is sort of "her thing"). Since she doesn't really have many debuffs, it wouldn't make sense to have Pounce "snare". Sedna can actually use Wyrmskin Gloves pretty decently, though (I used to get them instead of Nature's Reckoning a long ass time ago). 
An interesting thing would be to make the buff double all friendly buff's affects for a short period of time. Eg, if you have been Surged then you pounce, you release an aura that doubles the effect of Surge. It would be the sort of thing that fits in well with her, and would also have interesting (probably horribly overpowered) synergy with Magnificent Presence. 
Another option would be to cause "bleed", reducing enemy mana and/or health regen. 
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He needs an interrupt. Occ is poweful, yes, but popping a large potion in combat or locking a flag in his face is not fair. If it is on hit 1, you need to be under him for it to work. He cannot reach out and interrupt you at a distance. Other skill suggstions? Was thinking maybe brainstorm could somehow double as a team skill or anti-Dg skill. (drain mana and interupt when applied to an enemy)
Again, I don't think that every demigod needs an interrupt. If they are popping a large potion, you're sitting there wailing on them as they do it, and they are only eating that potion because they were losing in the first place. Occulus is not weak. 
Brainstorm is the most logical place to put it, if you absolutely had to. Another option would be to attach it to the lightning passive (his army and his creeps have the ability to randomly fire interrupts). Brainstorm is also pretty good once it removes debuffs @ Level 5 like it is supposed to. Magnus Rod + Brainstorm is brutal. 
Since I hate homogeneity in a game, instead of giving Occulus an interrupt (when he is doing mostly just fine without it), you could have the balls give off a debuff aura that increases cast times. 10/15/20/25 would be interesting. 25% longer cast times... it would be an interesting way to do it as well as buffing the balls. 
Let's compare Mark of the Betrayer and Spike Wave to Penitence (for the adding of interrupt) and Boulder Roll to compare with Spike Wave
Pentitence - 7s cooldown - instant - 20 range - 200/400/600/800 damage, 7/10/13/16% snare and increased damage for 7 seconds, 450/550/650/750 mana
Mark of the Betrayer - 20s cooldown - instant - 20 range - 400/600/800 AoE damage, 20/40/60% snare for 5 seconds. 600/775/950 mana
Spike Wave - 10s cooldown (except Level III, which you fixed) - .4 cast + travel time - 20/25/30 range - 350/500/650 damage, 15/20/25% snare. 750/1000/1250 cooldown
Boulder Roll - 15s cooldown - .4 cast + travel time - 250/500/750 damage, 1.5/2/2.5 stun. 560/800/1064 mana
Pentitence: 
+ Best Cooldown
+ Most mana efficient for mana/damage at highest level (though level 1-2 are pretty terrible)
+ Best debuffs 
- single target only
Mark of the Betrayer:
+ Best AoE damage for cost 
+ Huge snare has excellent synergy with mines
- Can be removed by a few abilities and only activates when using an ability
- very long cooldown
Spike Wave: 
+ excellent range, espiecially once leveled
- not instant, which is fair
- very expensive mana-wise when you level it up
Considering how Spike Wave is on a squishy character that requires form changing, it is rather underwhelming espiecially compared to Boulder Roll. Its only major redeeming aspect is the long range + short cooldown. So I guess adding an interrupt isn't that big of a deal. 
However, Mark of the Betrayer is pretty g'damn awesome once you make it an interrupt. Its only major flaw is that it is a little bit expensive mana wise (since Reg is buying currency/etc not a lot of mana left) and that it has a very long cooldown. But I don't think that it fits in with Reg to have it function as an interrupt. Reg shouldn't be really doing much 1v1 ANYWAY since he is a sniper character. 
I think making Mark of the Betrayer function like Deep Freeze is the best way. Make it increase cooldowns by 20% (more than the celerity flag, which prevents chain locking). Either the ability you use has a long cooldown, or all abilities used while snared have a long cooldown. Or have that effect happen while sniped. 
Eg, if you are sniped while having MotB on you, you are interrupted.  I don't think MotB needs an interrupt. Regulus functions just fine in 4v4 Levi and 5v5 Zikk. His problem is with 3v3 Cata, which is more of function of the maps design and player count than just him being super sucky. 
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No decreases.   UB is the poster boy for determing balance increases on other things.
If you have UB be the control group, then at least raise everyone's (but Erebus) speed by .3 then raise DA and Reg another .3  
I'm not exactly advocating a BUFF for plague. The problem with plague is it slows down the game. If Post Mortem properly awarded gold and XP, it wouldn't be too bad of a skill line. Making Plague deal 20 or 30 damage every 2 or 3 seconds instead of 10 every second would help fix that. 
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Reg is nowhere near T1 even with all those buffs. MotB interrupt is a must, but he also needs a base speed increase to 6.3. In addition, snipe scales horribly, it needs a 1-2 secs decrease in cooldown per lvl so it becomes more spammable the more you lvl it up, maybe even a cast time decrease too.
 
I think another part to make Reg better in 3v3 Cata is to rearrange the flags. Put both gold mines on the mana side, both celerities on hp side. Make the mana side a +15 mps flag instead of a 15% pool flag (which, in turn, makes % mps items more exciting). It also makes fighting for the hp side more interesting since if you have the mps flag, but not the hp flag you might be able to push them off, etc. 
Adding to that, make the hp flag into a debilitating flag (+10% damage for enemy team). This weakens monks and sigils and promotes damage-dealing over hp-stacking (Regulus Sniping the "damage" side in particular is buffed). 
And, AGAIN. Reg is FINE on 4v4 Levi and 5v5 Zikk. He doesn't need any broadly sweeping changes that would imbalance those two maps (like reducing cooldowns). Improving his Level 15 skills is fine, they do suck (most of them do, really :/ ) and they don't upset those game modes. 
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August 20, 2010 9:35:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just a quick response hedgie before I go into more detail on the other items.

On cata, I took  a level 20 beast with scalemail, nimoth, duelists, armor of vengance and Vinling. 

I drained all my mana (a little more then 4K) and walked up to one of the Archer/ToL doubles in the centre (not the middle, the side, so only 1 ToL and archer was hitting). I died a little bit before the mana pool was replenished with the 5% proc rate. 

I didn't take acclimation.

Now, same scenario. Crusader + scalemail + nimoth + duelists + vengance

Same towers... could not get me below 80% life.
2x Towers (stand in the middle)... could not get below 50% life
Level 20 Reg shows up and AAs with CrazyTown maim... dead in 20 seconds.

OK, that is a little over the top. Thanks for pointing it out.

Now, same scenario with groffling + scalemail + nimoth + duelists + Vengance.

Not nearly as over the top as crusader, but dead in about 60 seconds from tower fire alone.

Crusader needs to go back down... but it has a special case, it is procing life. So I guess 3% at 2250 is fair when you understand how you use it, maybe 2%? 1% is still to low, and you will be long dead before you get any regen out of the item. I am not so sure about Vinling or Groffling though.

The regen on Vinling comes at a pretty terrible cost. You are going to get bruised, so this is a case for it over plenor when you are geared properly.

Groffling does not seem to reproc when the shield is up and you are getting nailed, but I could be wrong. It is also expensive, so I am thinking it should stay at 5.

So, now

Crusader 3% (maybe 2%)- You are not immortal under tower fire in one the most heavily armored scenarios, but you get some considerable staying power taking on arrow towers.
Vinling 5% (maybe 4%)- You really need to gear to abuse this item...
Groffling, stay at 5%

As for Rook, if you are in arrow range you are thump range / incoming gank range. I guess if you don't understand how crusader works you will be a bit pissed, but it sounds like a soft-counter to take on tower rook and have a chance at 3%. I am all for that.

II) Arguments on Theurgist's hat.

1) FS and BS cit upgrades are improved. Honestly, at WR 2 and BS1, you need a health item on minions to approach a tower. This is factored into the price. Otherwise, the choice is always tome of endurance for your minion item.
2) If someone goes for high regen specialization, like LE or Sedna, you can punish them at some expense. In team dynamics you become a counter to the high regen DG, but in turn become disadvantaged vs a standard ODG build (anti-DG spam skills, Botf, banded, nimoth, Vlemish, unbreakable, plenor)  since this item does nothing really BUT counter regen or provide minion health.
3) Direct counter to your argument about Hauberk. For 750 more gold you get +600 life, that is a big value.
4) I know it is easy to miss some considerations... but also factor in some new items. eg: Warpstone will allow you to threaten a pure minion build DG who is being a panzy. Warlord's punisher works now, so that is another 300 damage potential you need to worry about exposing your minions to. Diamond Pendant + Armor of Vengance is a hard counter to a minion build if you make it obvious this is your plan early... etc... All in all, you need a sub 1000 + minion life item in CrazyTown, and you also need an anti-regen item that is quick to pick up when needed (at some cost to your own abilities).

III) Yetis- I missed an important trait in the description in this post that the Yeti's have in this build. Movement Speed +0,5,10,15% EDIT: I lied, this was there.

Yetis IV + Mag presence + Healing wind.
400ish combined DPS, +15% movement, 1710 life, +39 regen
Now add minion items. Clearly yetis do not benefit from + damage items as much as LE or Oak, but + life and speed items makes them unignorable and they are good creep distractors. They are not really a good choice for early game... but, they can pursue while attacking, take a pounding and dish out decent damage.

What is wrong. 400 DPS not enough?

III) Dodge vs Armor: Depends how much you do get hit for when dodge fails. Usually the AA you face is lower damage + more hits vs less hits and more damage. Although the damage you take overtime averages out... the damage you take upfront on getting a heavy hit vs your life pool does not. This is an important distinction when to take dodge. In CrazyTown Duelist + Slayers is an attainable mid game goal.

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August 20, 2010 10:28:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeti wise it would be nice if Wild Swings was always in effect.

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August 20, 2010 10:36:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
stuff

I actually read all that.  I'm not a fantastic player, but I've got a pretty good feel for game balance in general, and I agree with:

- TB does not need another interrupt

- Reg and DA need 6.3 speed (already done this in a screwaround single player mod, works well)

- Yetis need a large boost to everything (already played around with this too, having a hard time finding a sweet spot)

- Flag changes to Cataract.  Easily done, and very worthwhile.  I haven't tried changing the gold flag, since that requires a bit more positioning trial-and-error, but even changing the center-side flags to mana/hp per second makes the map a lot less irritating.  What exactly is the argument for switching the gold/celerity flags around?

- MotB interrupt on Snipe.  This is a fantastic idea.  I would actually take this a step sideways, and have MotB trigger when the target is hit by Snipe.  This would reduce MotB's biggest disadvantage somewhat, and force the target demigod to choose when to trigger it, rather than whether to.  As for interrupts, I think that Deadeye interrupting on Snipe is enough - Reg doesn't need like four interrupts/stuns.  Possibly increase base Deadeye chance to 5%, or a random interrupt roughly every 20 shots instead of every 33.

- Reg doesn't need to be 'Tier 1', just better at support than he is now.  Snipe could use a boost, but NOT cooldown reduction.  That's a can of worms.

- Pounce does not need a stun, god no

- Groffling vs Crusader; I've played around with Crusader at 3% for 250, and found that to be a bit better.  Setting Groffling to the same chance for 300 makes its proc at least equal in most cases.  The Rook problem can be solved by making Rook's arrow towers less spastic, consolidating the same total DPS into half as many arrows.  I'm not aware of any possible functional disadvantages to this, and can only assume they went with 12 arrows/second for 'look and feel'.  Keep in mind that Rook's arrows do not do his own procs or on-hit buffs, they only trigger the target's, so the volume of fire is purely a disadvantage if his opponent has any procs at all.

 

Disagree with:

- Pounce being underpowered as-is.  It's not usable in the same way as as debuff+snare or a typical high-damage nuke, but it has  the best mana-to-damage ratio other than Fireball, and a super-fast cooldown.  Mid-game, especially with a celerity flag, it's not difficult to get off 2-3 pounces and several heals in one fight with just one helm.  I'd hesitate to classify it as a 'nuke', even at 1000 damage, since with the cost and cooldown it's more of a chew-down ability and occasionally chasing finisher with a side of interrupt.  I've found that when Inspirational Roar and Yetis are made worthwhile, it is definitely worth getting to IV.

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August 20, 2010 11:35:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Still looking for technical arguments on TB other than... man I feel the force, and my Yoda says no.

We do have some good arguments against Crazy Town frost Nova.... So

Frost Nova vs Mass Charm -Anti-DG duty

Technical details for the 3 AoE stuns. ODG Frost Nova / CrazyTown FrostNova / Mass Charm

Cast time / Stun length / Follow Through
0.9                  2                    0.6
0.9                 2.5                  0.3
1                     3                     1

Anti DG Value equation = Stun length (desirable) - Cast time (undesirable) - Follow Through (undesirable)
0.5 (terrible)
1.3 (better)
1 (the standard in GOOD mass anti-DG stuns)

So.... should crazy town become "1" like mass charm for anti-DG stunning duty?
Yes? How to arrange the numbers to shave 0.3 "value" off of crazy town frost Nova @10

eg: 0.9 - 2.2 - 0.3
or 0.9 - 2.5 - 0.6
etc... also, you are not allowed to remove from the 0.9, that makes frost nova harder to interrupt.

Also... seriously? We are arguing to keep TB a mediocre demigod? Come on. There were 4 changes,
Faster transitions
Longer form change effect durations
Better FrostNova
Interrupt on FireNova

The first 2 will not allow TB to fight Oak, LE or UB.
The 3rd will mitigate a glaring weakness... TB's anti-DG stun sucks balls for a level 10 skill compared to mass charm. Mass charm sits on a DG that is designed to eat TB for breakfast. I mean seriously, a 1.4 second net gain stun at level 10? WTF. That is terribly bad compared to other level 10 skills when you put it that way. TB is a squishy DG with no escape move like bat swarm or shield!
The 4th allows interrupts on slow casts when we are playing pure Fire TB, or allows a shut-down combo on hybrid TB when the enemy DG allows himself to get trapped. Tier 1? Hell yes. OP? Hell no. This keeps TB alive through 1 skill cycle, it doesn't allow him to take down a good DG in 1 skill exchange. He still has to do it again before he is clearly winning an exchange.

Let's assume the worst... thanks to some glaring mistakes from the enemy DG, TB shuts him down completely. He interrupted everything with his 3 interrupts and took no damage. At level 5, he spent 1800 mana to do 500 damage (level 1 Novas, and level 1 deep freeze)

At level 10 he did 925 damage for 2800 mana with a shunt down pattern! (level 2 novas + level 4 deepfreeze)

Seriously, how is this anywhere near ridiculous OP levels? The tradeoff is... Huge Mana cost + low damage to shutdown an enemy DG from doing any damage himself... and even that shutdown is nowhere near a complete certainty if you use your skills right depending what form TB is in.

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August 20, 2010 11:45:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

hedgie's argument was pretty solid, that all demigods that have stuns/interrupts have to make tradeoffs to get them.  If TB gets interrupts on three of his primary skills, you would have to try really really hard to not have at least one interrupt.

Then there's the obvious paradigm of Frost TB  = fight control & mass debuff, where Fire TB = damage damage damage.  It's hardly balanced to let one side or the other have the best of both worlds.  Why even pick Frost Nova if you can get 80% of the functionality, PLUS a load of damage, from Fire Nova?  There would be no reason, of course.

 

Also, I wouldn't put followthrough on the same level as cast time or stun duration.  It's a factor, maybe even more so for TB, but not that much of one.

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August 21, 2010 12:47:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm fine with keeping Groffling as is (5%). The fact that it is a shield that has no mitigation and cannot stack over and over and over again (you can't get a new shield until you deplete your current, as the description says) and it's on an item costing over 5k means that it can afford to be pretty high proc rate.

As I said, Crusaders with archer towers is absurd. Acclimation wouldn't matter in your situation. Note that Crusader should still be "good" against a Rook with archers. It's a perfectly solid counter. The main reason why Rook's archers are like that is because doesn't properly attack while chasing. Once Rook can attack while chasing he'll be pretty buffed. Introducing on-proc counters isn't a bad thing (except don't do Armor of Vengence reflect, obviously). 

The difference between Vinling and Plenor is 525 mana in favor of Plenor, and the proc% for 350 mana in favor of Vinling. They cost the same, have the same natural 70% mana rate. When considering which of the two helms to purchase it comes down to one thing: 

"Given what I am fighting, will I get hit enough times to proc Vinling twice in a fight before I would have gone oom"

 You are going to be hit more often if you are:

- fighting a general. Most generals will have 2 monks, which have an attack rate of .6, off the top of my head. Erebus is the major exception because most Erebi get one point in Coven early on, which boosts their Nightcrawlers to 6, which an attack rate of .65. Add on top of this Siege Idols, or possibly Spirits/etc and you have lots and lots of things hitting you.

- are on a low-AoE character (you won't get hit if you kill them first. Eg, TB would be a poor choice for Vinling as would Rook)

- are more likely to be focused in a fight (Sedna, Queen) 

- are fighting autoattack builds (AA Reg, Ooze Beast)

- are a high-attrition Demigod with high regen (Sedna, Erebus)

 

Erebus is a low-AoE demigod with high mana consumption, and the ability to transfer mana into HP. He has the ability to very easily get nightcrawlers. This is why Erebus mirrors are going to be screwed up with this item (or Sedna v Erebus. Possibly Queen v Sedna)

If it is at 5%, then you need to be hit an average of 40 times to get the benefit. That's a decently long amount of time if you think about it in a void, which is why we are having this debate. Vinling is still going to be useless for TB or Rook, also. 

Erebus versus Erebus mirrors. Let's say level 10. BotF, Unbreakbles, Vlemish, Nimoths, Banded Armor, Monks. One Erebus has Plenor, the other has Vinling. Both have one point in Coven, one point in Mist, 3 in Mass Charm, max Bite and 2 points in Batswarm. All flags are neutral (except the Celerity flags, each player having one). 

Both Erebuses would have 5255 HP. The Erebus with Plenor has 5078 mana. The Erebus with Vinling has 4553 mana. 

They have 34% mitigation and 20 hps. 34 mps. 

Nightcrawlers will deal 13 dps and have an attack rate of .65 == one attack every 1.5 seconds (my chart I used earlier was wrong :/). 

Monks will deal 48 damage have an attack rate of .45 == one attack every  2.2 seconds. They will heal 526 HP every 8 seconds, with them both starting on cooldown (first attack is instantly healed, so we start immediately in that position). 

Erebus has an attack rate of .77 == one attack every 1.3 seconds. He does 185 dps. 

6 * .65 + 2 * .45 + .77 == 5.57 "attacks" per second. At a 3% proc, that will trigger Vinling every 6 seconds. At a 5% proc, that will trigger Vinling every 3.59 seconds. 

Both Erebuses walk into the middle of the map and fight. Both monks target the opposing demigod and all six Nightcrawlers attack "ideally". Monks will be on cooldown for the first 8 seconds of the fight then heal every 8 seconds from then on. Both Erebus will bite at the exact same time the second they lose 775 and continously bite off of cooldown (7 * .85 seconds -> 5.95 seconds) starting then. Since both heal and deal the same amount of damage, biting achieves nothing except drain both Erebuses of mana (800 per use). The armor debuff (700) drops Erebus to 18.3% mitigation for 3 seconds.

Total incoming DPS without mitigation -> 6 * 13 + 2 * 21.6 + 185 == 306.2 DPS. Normal mitigation -> 202 dps - 20 hps == 182. Bite mitigation -> 250 dps - 20 hps == 230. 

---------

Fight to the Death. Win Condition is whoever has one more bite than the other.

Time  | Erebus 1 HP/Mana (Plenor) | Erebus 2 HP/Mana (Vinling - with 3% proc) | Event

00.00 | 5255/5078 | 5255/4553 | Begin engagement

04.26 | 5255/4278 | 5255/3753 | Bite

06.00 | 4854/4337 | 4854/4162 | Vinling procs

07.26 | 4565/4380 | 4565/4205 | Bite debuff wears off

08.00 | 4956/4405 | 4956/4230 | Monk heals

10.61 | 5255/3693 | 5255/3693 | Bite - has to wait .4 seconds to be properly efficient

12.00 | 4935/3741 | 4935/3916 | Vinling procs

13.61 | 4565/3823 | 4565/3998 | Bite debuff wears off

16.00 | 4656/3877 | 4656/4052 | Monk Heals      

16.96 | 5255/3110 | 5255/3285 | Bite - has to wait a .4 second delay to be properly efficient

18.00 | 5200/3145 | 5200/3670 | Vinling procs

19.96 | 4565/3212 | 4565/3737 | Bite debuff wears off

22.91 | 4803/2512 | 4803/3037 | Bite

24.00 | 5078/2549 | 5078/3424 | Monk Heals, Vinling also procs 

25.91 | 4639/2613 | 4639/3488 | Bite debuff wears off

28.86 | 4877/1913 | 4877/2788 | Bite

30.00 | 4615/1952 | 4615/3177 | Vinling procs

31.86 | 4187/2015 | 4187/3240 | Bite debuff wears off

32.00 | 4688/2020 | 4688/3245 | Monk heals

34.81 | 4952/1315 | 4952/2540 | Bite

36.00 | 4678/1355 | 4678/2930 | Vinling procs

37.81 | 4262/1417 | 4262/2992 | Bite debuff wears off

40.00 | 4389/1491 | 4389/3066 | Monk heals

40.76 | 5026/717   | 5026/2292 | Bite

42.00 | 4741/759   | 4741/2684 | Vinling procs

43.76 | 4336/819   | 4336/2744 | Bite debuff wears off

46.71 | 4574/119   | 4574/2044 | Bite

48.00 | 4803/163   | 4803/2438 | Monk heals, Vinling also procs

49.71 | 4410/221   | 4410/2496 | Bite debuff wears off

52.66 | 3098/321   | 4648/1796 | Erebus B Bites (Erebus A oom)

54.00 | 2790/367   | 4404/2192 | Vinling procs

55.66 | 2408/428   | 4102/2253 | Bite debuff wears off

... you can see where this is going. 

----

Yetis... 400 DPS might be enough. I'd have to experiment with it to make a judgement call. But, still. They cost sooo much mana even though 1710 is enough to keep them alive, I guess. Maybe it is just stuck in my head. Wild Swings always existing would make them worth it just for creeping, even if Siege Idols would normally still be better. 

--- 

Dodge versus Armor has been discussed well enough by Ptarth. It's just mathematical analysis. 

---

Miriyaka:

Switching gold and celerity makes the mana side more interesting. A fun trick (but only doable on Light side) is walking AROUND the tower to cap the gold flag instead of pushing the tower. It makes speed builds a lot stronger early game. 

It also punishes light less once they get pushed back. Light is FORCED to NEVER leave the HP side EVER. Moving the gold flags to the other side forces more balanced gameplay style because you can't just forget that side forever. A team could give up the debillitating flag to make a rush for your gold flag. Or, a flag with the mana-per-second flag could potentially force off a team off of the debilitating flag. It's just much more exciting. And it fixes Regulus. 

Rook does benefit from lifesteal from the arrows, and also when he is using BotS. Bloodstone Ring is a "decent" choice for Rook for that very reason (since the arrows give you +24 hps while in combat). With the reduced price, it's a little better. I think that arrows are fine right now... 

Pounce isn't underpowered, as a skill. You can make a full build out of it and it can work fine. Heal + Pounce spamming is pretty powerful, for sure, in 1v1 skirmishes. You simply get a lot out of the very first point but not as much as other skills with each successive point. I tend to "under-pounce" and that has always been one of the flaws in my gameplay but pounce builds tend to fall behind other demigod DPS builds because you only have one skill tree that does damage while most demigods have two. 

---

Frost Nova "makes up" for its .3 by being:

- a building stun

- having a movement debuff (which should be increased to 5/6/7 so it always lasts 4 seconds after becoming un-stunned) OR dealing damage via Deep Freeze

 

Longer form changes and Faster transitions are fine. Just makes him easier to play. I really don't think TB needs that much... Permafrost being shatterable is really the only thing I would do to him other than the quicker transitions and longer form changes. 

Most of the "weakness" of TB comes in the fact he has a really shitty mid-game, compared to Erebus in particular, and because it is impossible to properly kite a UB who is faster than you and does more ranged damage than you. Because most of his abilities are white-damage, and everyone health stacks, he runs in to problems until he has catapults behind him. The existing item changes will mix some stuff up. 

Perhaps the reason I don't see a problem with Frost Nova is because how Thunder uses it and .... yah. 

--- 

Foul Grasp is the only stun you make no trade-offs for  

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August 21, 2010 2:22:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I would like to point out that everything that hedgie says is also my belief and I would also like to make it perfectly clear that fire nova should not be an interrupt. Making fire nova an interrupt would be absolutely rediculous.

One other thing that I highly disagree with is brilliant bauble no damage reduction please. Just make brilliant bauble's + xp higher than it is. Say like 40 % more xp.

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