[MOD] LOP QoT

By on June 4, 2010 7:59:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

LORD-ORION

Join Date 04/2009
+51

Ptarth and I have created a mod for QoT.

After an exchange of around 100 private messages debating QoT and a dozen test versions, this is ready for you to try. Although we don't agree on everything and have each made compromises for our respective visions of QoT, we both have a good feel for this build. We are satisfied you will enjoy it and find it fair in gameplay. If you are hesitant, you should download it to simply see the level 10 shield effect. I know I did recast it several times when I first saw it, mesmerized. Ptarth is awesome 'nuff said. 

Please share your opinions and gameplay experiencs using this mod.

Thanks,
LORD-ORION & Ptarth


Message from Ptarth:

Wiki Started

http://code.google.com/p/uberfix/wiki/LOPQoT

Each ability should have its own page where changes are discussed. I haven't created individual pages yet. There should also be base stats for all demigods for all levels and all abilities. Some build power cutoffs should also be calculated to create baselines. If anyone else wants to do these things or other things, that would be great. Also, I'm not sure who it gives write access to. If someone could check that, that would also be great.


Latest Version

Link to LOPQoT v8

Change List

Mulch

  • AutoMulching Implemented.
  • Automatically destroys the oldest shambler.
  • AOE Damage is divided evenly between all shamblers.
  • Units near all shamblers will take listed damage.
  • Other units will take damage proportional to the number of shamblers they are near.
  • A better tooltip is needed. Suggestions welcome.
  • Explosion timer reduced to 0.5 seconds from 2 seconds.

Entourage

  • + 10 Shambler weapon damage per level
  • +100 Shambler Armor per level
  • +165 Shambler Health per level

Tribute

  • +10 Gold production from +4. 

Bramble Shield

  • Absorb: 700,950,1200,1450
  • Cost: 400,560,720,880
  • Efficiency: 1.75 1.70 1.67 1.64
  •  When QoT casts Bramble Shield IV on herself she becomesimmune to debuffs for 3 seconds. Current Active debuffs are unaffected.

Ground Spikes

  • Returned to original form

 

Goddess of Thorns

  • The 15% damage reduction and 35 damage retaliation becomes a passive ability active only for the QoT at all times.

Compost

  • Shambler/QoT Weapon Damage 6/12/18/36/54
  • Shambler/QoT MaxHealth Increase 60/120/180/240/300


Spike Wave

  • Spike wave is now an interrupt

Uproot

  • Total damage increased to 750/1250/1750/2250
  • QoT attack Range Increase Removed
  • QoT Weapon Damage Increased by 15/30/45/60
  • Uproot can heal towers.

Violent Siege

  • Damage is 225 per tick at 15 yards radius.
  • This damage is mitigated by armor

 

Previous Versions

LOPQoT

Change List

Mulch
Explosion timer reduced to 0,5 seconds from 2 seconds.

Entourage
+ 10 damage per level

Tribute
+10 Gold production from +4.

Bramble Shield III
Removes debuff on cast

Bramble Shield IV
When you cast this on yourself, you are immune to debuffs for 3 seconds. (with an awesome effect)

Ground Spikes
Armor reduction is removed in exchange for % damage increase.

Damage % is +10/+15/+20/+25

Goddess of Thorns
The 15% damage reduction and 35 damage retaliation becomes a permanent aura

Compost
Minions +12 damage per level
QoT +12 damage per level
QoT + 125 life per level

Spike Wave
Spike wave is now an interrupt

Uproot
Total damage over 10 ticks is now
750/1250/1750/2250

QoT attack Range
+1/+1/+1//+2 yards

QoT Damage
+15/30/45/60

Uproot can heal towers.

Violent Siege
Damage is 225 per tick at 15 yards radius.
This damage is mitigated by armor

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June 7, 2010 4:19:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting LORD-ORION,
She is already the easiest DG to kill late game because she needs 2 helms

I don't think anyone is opposed to reducing mana cost of all higher levels of bramble, nor even to reasonably boosting the HP of III and/or IV.  1450 is a nice buffer against abilities, but does tend to evaporate under level 15+ AA due to the lack of armor application (which cannot be reasonably changed).

Again, one of the issues with the debuff removal/immunity is homogeneity.  It's pushing it closer to (Oak's) Shield, in fact making it more useful for general debuff removal because of its comparative cheapness and extremely low cooldown.  In combat, the debuff immunity isn't going to be extremely crucial except against UB (spit) or Oak (penitence), and as you pointed out it probably won't be a true equalizer in either case anyway.  Meanwhile, because bramble can be cast far more often than shield or even heal, it becomes the premier debuff removal skill, which is clearly not its intended purpose.

I'm all for making higher levels of bramble more useful in some way, but from the sounds of things, even debuff immunity probably wouldn't change your 'ideal' L11 QoT build.  It might make a bramble-centric build more useful for support, but you're not arguing that QoT is useless for support, but rather in direct combat - where you'll still be equally (if not more) disadvantaged if you don't have ground spikes or mulch.

 

What about giving higher levels of mulch a simple debuff removal?  Again, we're moving toward another demigod's ability-- heal-- but at least it can't be cast repeatedly on other demigods, and has a 'counter' (kill all shamblers).

 

Edit: I just noticed the change for Goddess of Thorns.  This pretty much means that UB will take 50-100% of his own Ooze damage to EACH of QoT's minions in retaliation, always.  That's a huge change in terms of QoT's viability vs UB, nevermind the now-permanent 15% damage reduction.  This also further incentivizes taking BS IV by level 14, which should already have its mana cost decreased and HP amount increased.  Fast-cast remote debuff immunity on top of all this would be making a level 15+ QoT way too much of a late-game force multiplier.

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June 7, 2010 5:24:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Wait, that's an aura? I thought you meant it was a permanent buff !!!

That said, assuming it works like Armor of Vengence, Ooze or other abilities shouldn't affect it. Once autoattack. That said, that will pretty much make Queen's creepwave melt the other creep wave without doing anything (I think it would out-pace Fire Aura). (Healing Wind II will keep her creepwave alive but it's quite a bit different... the faster you melt the opposing creepwave, the more you have focusing on the demigod in front of it. If your creeep wave simply takes less damage then the others then your creep wave has more models that survive, which increases your "eventual" dps after the creepwave closes on the opposing demigod).

Orion, I use that same build too (the difference being I don't level up Shamblers)? Don't try to educate me and assume I do the "typical" Shield-Spikes-SAVE-Shield+Spikes build. However, that is the most common and dropping the cost of Shield makes that a more attractive build.There is nothing wrong with balance changes encouraging 3-4 distinct builds per demigod. In fact, that should be its goal.

Also, just because the popular meta dictates 3v3 Cataract Conquest, we can't just assume that is the only game being played. If we really wanted to break it down into the game modes we should "care" about (therefore, non-pantheon so only Conquest games though terrible imbalances for Fortress should be considered):

1v1 Prison, Crucible (hand-wave gap-abuse)

2v2 Prison, Cataract

3v3 Cataract

4v4 Levi, {Exile} (exile is unpopular enough we could forget about it)

5v5 Zikk, {Mandala} (Manadala is unpopular enough we could forget it)

The only demigod that is "universally" T3 is DA. Certain maps favor other confrontations, like TB and Reg are very powerful on Levi.

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June 7, 2010 5:32:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just a quick note to clarify.

The current LOP QoT version of Goddess of Thorns gives the QoT a permanent self-buff of 35 damage per reflectable attack (primarily autoattacks only) and 15% damage reduction to all damage. It is not an aura, nor can it buff others.

In other words she gets the buff from the Armor of Vengeance (but not the armor) and 15% damage reduction, but only on herself. No other units get the bonus. It also takes up 9 skill points of a build and only becomes possible at level 15.

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June 7, 2010 5:50:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I looked at the abilities file to clarify, and no, it's not an army bonus anymore - the return damage is from QoT only, and yes, it only works on AA damage.  It's still a permanent 15% DR and some token return damage.  Would the 35 return damage be overpowered as an army bonus?  As you say, it would probably let her minions melt low- to mid-level creepwaves, but it is an L15 skill.

 

When browsing the abilities file, I noticed how prominent some of the combined Compost + Entourage changes are.

 

Base Shamblers:

675hp

30dmg / 2s, for 15dps each, total 60dps

 

Pre-mod Shamblers with Entourage III and Compost III (level V buff, VI unreachable):

975hp

46dmg / 2s, for 23dps each, total 92dps

 

Post-mod Shamblers with Entourage III and Compost III (level VI buff):

1530hp

132dmg / 2s, for 66dps each, total 264dps

 

That's a 56% increase in HP, which is pretty reasonable, and a massive 187% increase in damage output.  And this is before any items that boost minion damage/ROF.  I realize that Shamblers (and Yetis) are somewhat useless in their current form, but holy hell that's a big damage increase.  Even without Compost, Entourage III Shamblers in the mod have the HP and damage output of Compost III buff V pre-mod Shamblers.

There are a lot of moderate to significant changes like that in this mod.  Don't complain too much about our opposition to debuff removal/immunity when virtually every other aspect of QoT is getting seriously boosted, maybe a bit too much in some cases.

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June 7, 2010 6:21:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

re: Crazy Shambler buff

In the QoT Focus Mod I went over some math to justify the buff values I used. I'd like to direct anyone who hasn't read or forgotten them to go revisit that thread.

I'll even give you a link to start your browsing.

They aren't the same exact bonuses, but it is a good starting point for comparisons.

re: Compost HP

Remember that level 3 compost w/o kills lasts for a maximum of 14 seconds.

Compost buff 6 is never reachable, 5 is the maximum. Please refer to the Uberfix thread for more details.

Compost HP buffs wear off and Health drops down when it is lost.

Full Compost, Entourage, and Summon Shamblers is 11 skill points. That doesn't leave very much room for other abilities and the QoT is still very squishy.

QoT doesn't have any passive minion hp regen skills (besides Morale). Even though minions might have a high max health, they still can't heal quickly (without items).

re: feedback

I appreciate it. I'm pretty sure LO does too. As everyone is aware, the QoT has a ton of useless skills all of which need buffing. Some were enhanced too much in the mod, others not enough. Hopefully with assistance they can be shifted to more reasonable values along both sides.

 

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June 8, 2010 2:25:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah, I wasn't really criticizing the shambler buff, just pointing out that basically all skills will now be useful in some way, even without what some of us perceive to be an excessive change (debuff immunity).  Also, I was under the impression that you had enabled the sixth level of compost in this mod, as that would qualify as 'improving QoT', but I guess you wanted to do it in the Uberfix instead, which is also fine.  It's probably possible to do it in both places at once without stepping on any toes code-wise, but I haven't had time to look at it in detail, so I don't know for sure.

As far as compost wearing off, I'm sure it will happen often enough, but compost-boosted entourage III shamblers will tear through creeps like crazy now, making it a lot easier to maintain.  Not a bad thing, just something to keep in mind.

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June 8, 2010 3:13:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I had just realized compost was functioning differently than I had assumed, I hadn't made any changes as of yet.

I'm also looking into using a wiki to make these discussions easier. It is hard for me to keep the multiple ability considerations separate, and hopefully this will make it easier.

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June 9, 2010 9:25:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Your Shambler changes inspired me to take a whack at Sedna's Yetis.  I haven't had time to test it extensively, and my armor amounts are probably excessive, but here's what I've got so far.  Strikethrough shows the level IV buff that doesn't get applied in Demigod 1.2 (HotY IV still uses the III buff):

 

Original Yetis

810/1110/1410/1710hp

No armor

No regen

17/21/25/30dps, from 30/37/44/51 damage at 0.6 rof

total 34/42/100/120dps

 

Test Yetis

1000/1400/1800/2200hp

0/300/600/900 armor (0/10/19/27% AA resist)

0/5/10/15 regen

30/40/50/60dps, from 45/60/75/90 damage at 0.667 rof

total 60/80/200/240dps

Wild Swings adds +10% attack and movement speed in addition to 75% AE

Inspirational Roar adds +15% attack speed in addition to move/evasion, for 10s from 5s

 

At level 15 with a few minion HP items and healing wind II, these will take a lone tower in ~25s with typically one yeti loss, and seem to be able to hold their own in a creep wave with un-upgraded giants, though they still die to them sooner or later.  Haven't tested this in a proper game though.  Keep in mind that an unbonused L4 Mino has something like 2050hp with 600 base armor and does 30dps (which is kind of pathetic).

I also figured out how to implement the Yeti buffs as selective army bonuses, so the new buffs are seamlessly applied to existing yetis upon upgrading the skill.

 

But I suppose this is the wrong thread for this.

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June 9, 2010 11:38:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hmm, you bring up a good point. A spreadsheet should be designed that contains all the potential minion enhancements and skills/items that affect minions. That way we can see and compare stats across minions and builds. I'd been thinking of just messing around with the QoT, but if we generalize to other Demigods then comparisons between them should be made.

Nice catch on the Yeti04 buff not being applied. It should be added to the buglist.

One problem with Yeti attacks on towers is the default Tower of Light AOE is big enough to kill all of the Yetis simultaneously if you let the Yetis autoattack. I wonder if something should be done about that. (Given that the ToL is argueably bugged with its damage/aoe).

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June 9, 2010 6:16:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Of course to complicate that, I would argue that a few of the items should probably have their bonuses changed.  It seems like there are too many items with minion HP, and not enough with minion armor/regen.  It's nowhere near as big a problem as with demigod HP stacking, as the minion-bonused non-artifacts will typically leave the general wearing them at a disadvantage even if their minions are heavily boosted.  However, you can still get around 1500hp from non-artifact items, and only something like 900 armor (27% AA resist).  This ends up making minions tougher vs abilities than they probably should be, but not resistant enough to towers and creeps.  It also reduces the importance of minion hp regen, even on the level of the above settings and Healing Wind II (39hp/s before items).

As for Yetis taking tower AoE - with these settings, I don't think it's a big deal, as they are still 'disposable' minions, even if they're intended to be the least disposable of the general-specific minions.  You can still push a tower with HW II, HotY III, and a few cheap minion items, even if you usually have to resummon Yetis once or twice.  It's a massive improvement over yetis all dying to the tower within 3 firing cycles after having done maybe 500 damage, at HotY IV.

And Sedna isn't Rook or QoT - the ability to kill towers rapidly and efficiently isn't really core to her character design.  She just doesn't need to be quite as disadvantaged at it (and late-game creep farming) as she is now.

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June 10, 2010 10:27:32 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

...While Ptarth makes some changes to the LOP mod based on feedback here (after this last build I think the plan is we are going to start doing all this stuff wiki based for community involvement)

What is the role of Yeti for Sedna? Anti-DG? Anti-Creep? Anti-Tower? Meat-Shield?

Defining what role a yeti is supposed to fulfilll on Sedna is probably the best starting point before adjusting them to make them worth taking.

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June 10, 2010 4:10:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Link to LOPQoT v8

Change List

Mulch

  • AutoMulching Implemented.
  • Automatically destroys the oldest shambler.
  • AOE Damage is divided evenly between all shamblers.
  • Units near all shamblers will take listed damage.
  • Other units will take damage proportional to the number of shamblers they are near.
  • A better tooltip is needed. Suggestions welcome.
  • Explosion timer reduced to 0.5 seconds from 2 seconds.

Entourage

  • + 10 Shambler weapon damage per level
  • +100 Shambler Armor per level
  • +165 Shambler Health per level

Tribute

  • +10 Gold production from +4. 

Bramble Shield

  • Absorb: 700,950,1200,1450
  • Cost: 400,560,720,880
  • Efficiency: 1.75 1.70 1.67 1.64
  • 60 second duration
  •  When QoT casts Bramble Shield IV on herself she becomesimmune to debuffs for 3 seconds. Current Active debuffs are unaffected.

Ground Spikes

  • Returned to original form

 

Goddess of Thorns

  • The 15% damage reduction and 35 damage retaliation becomes a passive ability active only for the QoT at all times.

Compost

  • Shambler/QoT Weapon Damage 6/12/18/36/54
  • Shambler/QoT MaxHealth Increase 60/120/180/240/300


Spike Wave

  • Spike wave is now an interrupt

Uproot

  • Total damage increased to 750/1250/1750/2250
  • QoT attack Range Increase Removed
  • QoT Weapon Damage Increased by 15/30/45/60
  • Uproot can heal towers.

Violent Siege

  • Damage is 225 per tick at 15 yards radius.
  • This damage is mitigated by armor

 


 

Ptarth's Thoughts

  • Automulch works (I think). I am happy now. Tooltip should probably be more explicit.
  • Bramble Shield still needs a buff at higher levels.
  • Compost MaxHealth increases are trivial. Increase it or lose it.
  • Violent Siege 15 is really big.
  • Ground Spikes still completely dominates Uproot. Something needs to make Uproot more useful than Ground Spikes in at least a few cases.
  • Uproot is still weak. I think the next version should be channelable and give health and/or mana.
  • Spike Wave needs to have some reason to get higher levels of Spike Wave
  • Tribute isn't good enough. QoT gets 600 gold per 60 ticks ~ 1 minute. (Note. What's the tick to second conversion ratio?). So estimating a game lasts 5 minutes after getting level 15, this gives the QoT an extra 3k gold. Compared to UB who gains a lot of free damage immunity.

 


 

Wiki Started

http://code.google.com/p/uberfix/wiki/LOPQoT

Each ability should have its own page where changes are discussed. I haven't created individual pages yet. There should also be base stats for all demigods for all levels and all abilities. Some build power cutoffs should also be calculated to create baselines. If anyone else wants to do these things or other things, that would be great. Also, I'm not sure who it gives write access to. If someone could check that, that would also be great.

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June 10, 2010 6:42:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

One problem with auto-mulch... no cross lane creep harvesting. This is one of the nice extra perks about Mulch besides the low cost heal. The ability to run a Shambler to the other lane and kill a creep wave. Sort of like a poor version of Wrath of Heaven.

I use this feature extensively, even with level 1. (just wait a bit for the unattended creep wave to damage themselves before detonation either on your wave or your tower). There is always a time when your allies are out of lane and you are going to waste a creep wave. 

On shield
No absorption increase. It is good for 2on2, and we are also improving QoT's DPS and other capabilities, so we need to wait.

Debuff immunity at level 4.
The point of this mod, is to bring up QoT's game to that of the best DGs. Oak, Rook, LE, UB.

Offensive flag locking. 
Shield -> Lock -> Heal -> Shield -> TP out.

One thing I made sure to bring up to Ptarth is that the immunity debuff is removed if QoT's shield is collapsed. So, in the event of a guarded portal, 2 DGs should be able to collpase her shield and either interrupt the lock, or the TP out and kill her. 
1on1, you are going to have a relock, which is no worse then the other portal rapists like Oak, LE and Rook. This makes QOT a desirable late gamer.

Compost vs Entourage vs Morale

We looked at what you get for 3 points.

Basically, 3 Morale with all idols and 4 shamblers is the equivalnet of 4 Shamblers having +42 damage.

Looking at Compost 3, damage levels are 18 / 36 /54
Most of the time you will be hovering below the average amount of damage provided by morale unless you hit the final compost level effect with 9 kills. The other factor is that shamblers do AoE.

Looking at Entourage 3, damage is only +30, so a little more then 25% less damage potential then morale. But we also get double the armor , which is big for minions, and a hell of alot of life.

So... compost for damage potential and AoE, Entourage for survivability and morale a blend of the 2 when you have full idols and are focusing on one target.

Spike Wave
All DGs should have an interrupt to prevent item abuse. With no stun, travel time and a 15 second refersh, it is on the weaker side of precision interrupting. However, it does have good range and can interrupt multiple DGs, so QoT is ALOT better then before for DG on DG combat.

Looking more fair now and upping QoT's game to best DG levels?

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June 10, 2010 7:06:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Automulch should still allow you to keep cross lane farming.

  • Assuming Mulch 1 you get 250 damage and have 2 shamblers each will do 125 to nearby targets. That's enough to get xp/kill credit for units up to 500 hp. You can also suicide a shambler to then have the other shambler do a full 250 damage (sufficient to get 1000 hp units).

Shield IV

  • I haven't linked the shields together yet. I think I can do it, I just haven't gotten around to it. (I'm still not sure it is necessary.)
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June 10, 2010 7:57:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I would say it is, or you get a worse situation then oak, where QoT can Shield, Lock, Mulch, Shield and TP out in the face of multiple DGs and you really have no reasonable chance to stop her.

With 2DGs and 1 interrupt you are going to block her escape and kill her if she loses the 3 seconds debuff immunity in a quick burst and then you follow up with the interrupt.

 

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June 10, 2010 9:24:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Still don't like the 3s debuff immunity.  I'd rather see shield increased in HP absorption at level IV than be given something that powerful.  Shield is not currently her weakest ability by any means, especially now that GoT is very much worth taking.

The extreme item health stacking is mainly what makes it seem so weak at higher levels right now.  Addressing that in another mod would give a significant indirect buff to shield IV.

 

Quoting Ptarth,
I haven't linked the shields together yet. I think I can do it, I just haven't gotten around to it. (I'm still not sure it is necessary.)

What exactly do you mean by 'linked together'?

 

Edit:

Quoting LORD-ORION,
What is the role of Yeti for Sedna? Anti-DG? Anti-Creep? Anti-Tower? Meat-Shield?

Defining what role a yeti is supposed to fulfilll on Sedna is probably the best starting point before adjusting them to make them worth taking.

I think a little of each, but definitely not direct anti-tower or anti-DG (although they should still be somewhat effective vs lone towers and melee DGs).  Right now, Sedna is virtually incapable of turning a creepwave with giants, and is in serious trouble if an enemy DG shows up while she's trying.  So that'd be the primary goal in my mind, at least - get maxed out L4 Yetis able to stand up to giants with some assistance from Sedna herself (in the form of added damage, healing wind, heal, etc).

The rest is secondary.  Thus the emphasis on armor and raw damage over either speed, ROF, or raw hp.

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June 10, 2010 10:03:51 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If shield collapses now, (1450) dmg before 3 seconds pass, immunity still remains for 3 seconds. I want it to be if shield collapses before the 3 seconds, the immunity is also lost.

eg: Consider someone like Occ or Reg that can collapse her shield in one shot, and then Oak follows up with interrupt. That is a dead QoT if she was relying on the debuff immunity to TP out. As it is now, it is OP if she can be 100% immune for 3 out of 7.5 seconds.

Let's consider where QoT sorta sits when we evaluate why she should have the debuff immunity.

She shares many similarities with Oak, yet Oak is superior in almost everyway when you compare the total effects of all skills cumulatively.

Snare, shield, Oak Has an AoE that buffs, QoT has AoE that debuffs.

She has support duty and minion enhancement similarities with Sedna, yet Sedna is one of the best 1on1 DGs and QoT is the worst. (well, there is DA, but he is a new char)

Shield vs Heal, personal minion buffs on skills 

She is a siege role like rook and seems to be designed for endurance (she has great early game endurance with shield, heal, an armored mode, and a high mana regen mode, all of which are failures for endurance in the grand scheme of things past the early game). This role is perhaps one of the few overlaps where she wins out, QoT can really do in structures... but Rook is far more fearsome in DG on DG combat.

PoT + Strc Trnsfr vs Uproot + Mulch, Boulder vs Wave, very high "White" damage potential on both.

She gets the short end of the stick in all of the comparative role similarities.

We give her a poor man's stun, the 3 second debuff immunity, which gives her the time to do what she wants, yet surroudning DGs can still move and attack her, and this is too much to ask for to make her a good DG?

QoT's role is support / offensive siege. She should be another portal rapist like Oak / Rook and also share a variation of a theme on Sedna's silence. Giving her the 3 second debuff immunity fits and makes her potent.

She will still be not the best for flag defense, just not completely useless with one 15 seconds interrupt.

Like I said, this is meant to put her on par with the good DGs, not pull her out of the basement to be  a good"average" DG. We are going to do this for all the other DGs as well as the bad skills, and tweak them a bit so all DGs are "good". 

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June 10, 2010 11:59:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums



Offensive flag locking. 
Shield -> Lock -> Heal -> Shield -> TP out.

One thing I made sure to bring up to Ptarth is that the immunity debuff is removed if QoT's shield is collapsed. So, in the event of a guarded portal, 2 DGs should be able to collpase her shield and either interrupt the lock, or the TP out and kill her. 
1on1, you are going to have a relock, which is no worse then the other portal rapists like Oak, LE and Rook. This makes QOT a desirable late gamer.

Late-game it's more like, Giants -> Ground Spikes -> Demigods melt -> Lock flag in safety. 

Also, most demigods won't have much of a saw in the matter

Demigods who wouldn't be able to pop Shield and have an interrupt: 

Oak, Sedna

Demigods without interupts but able to pop: 

Occulus, Regulus

Demigods who have interupts but will be unable to pop

UB (lack of burst), TB (Fireball -> Drop -> RoI -> DF is too slow if the Queen ports, shields, locks). 

Demigods who have alpha strikes and interupts on different abilities

Erebus, Rook, DA (but swap is too slow, Rook's Hammer Slam - Roll /barely/ makes it and Erebus can't burst through it alone)

Demigods unable to pop:

Queen

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I do that Queen losing her debuff immunity breaks homogenuity, so I think it's a more clever idea and also a decent compromise making her stronger and better at locking without being over the top. So long as it doesn't remove debuffs (to be a 7 second cooldown heal III clone) when it casts, simply makes her immune to new ones (so that means, if an Oak tries to pop her shield with Penitence, then she won't suffer the % damage increase which is a pretty big deal. Same with UB and spit). 

I would also rework it as follows:

  • Absorb: 700,950,1200,1450 -> 700,980,1260,1400
  • Cost: 400,560,720,880 -> 400,560,720,720
  • Efficiency: 1.75 1.70 1.67 1.64 -> 1.75,1.75,1.75,1.94
  •  When QoT casts Bramble Shield IV on herself she becomes immune to debuffs for 3 seconds. Current Active debuffs are unaffected. This buff is removes when Bramble Shield IV is destroyed.

The concept is rather than Shield IV's primary benefit be simply a "bigger shield" like it is now, you would get Shield IV for it's debuff immunity and the fact it is a slightly bigger shield without costing "a bigger helm", which solves one of her major late-game weaknesses. 

Shield II doesn't really need to be buffed, but I don't think that 30 more absorption will make a big deal in the long-run (that's a 3% buff). It's major benefit is that it makes the gap between Cloak of Night Queen and Blood Queen a little smaller at level 4. I think most people agree that Shield III is towards when Queen starts to weaken. I don't think that the 60 more absorption will change that much about that. Plus, weather or not Queen is "weak" at Level 7 is up for debate. 

Shield IV changes are a bit more drastic. Notice the 50 absorption nerf, though the "huge" mana-buff (18% cheaper). I think that in most cases the debuff will save her more than 50 absorption (spit, blocking a Silence or other stun so she can mulch or Sigil, preventing penitence and bite debuffs, etc).

Spike Wave

All DGs should have an interrupt to prevent item abuse. With no stun, travel time and a 15 second refersh, it is on the weaker side of precision interrupting. However, it does have good range and can interrupt multiple DGs, so QoT is ALOT better then before for DG on DG combat.

Many Demigods have a 15 second cooldown on their interupt. The only ones who don't have a 15 second or more cooldown are Oak and Sedna. 

I disagree about item abuse. The only real "abuse" is porting away. If they lock a flag AND then port away, they probably either had full hp (but no mana? why not fight?) or had to Sigil to do it. That's a lot of gold. Eating pots in your face is just hilarious as well. 

Porting away is really the only item that you can "abuse" without hurting yourself in the long run, other than chain-locking portals. 

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yet Sedna is one of the best 1on1 DGs and QoT is the worst. (well, there is DA, but he is a new char)

Bullshit. Sorry, but it's true. Mid game (8-10) she is probably the best in a 1v1 General versus General match up. However, she struggles a lot more in 1v1 General versus Assassin match ups (and against General versus Assassin matchups she can't buy Currency if she wants to win):

Rook ... yah. lol

UB ... Sedna is really one of the few characters that can beat a UB. But Erebus can too between Bite and Mist. 

TB ... though a Sedna with Bishops can ignore TB, she can't have Bishops if she got cur.  Sedna struggles against a Blood Fire TB (typically because said Blood Fire TB is 2-3 levels ahead) because she has to choose to eat fireballs or stand in a circle and burn away.  Against a BotS Hybrid, she doesn't have the ability to kite them out since she has no ranged. Though Sedna will destroy a BotS Hybrid standing on a flag at this stage in the game. 

Reg and DA don't count for this discussion. Though Reg can kite Sedna ad nauseum. 

Once catapults and giants hit the field, she can't 1v1 against pretty much anyone except DA in a creep lane. Now, pull her out of a creepwave and she can fight UB still. Just not in one. 

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Queen rapes Oak early game? You can certainly outlevel him if you're on the mana side and alternating since you farm faster, even at level 5 when he can Surge. If you are both on HP side, then he isn't getting levels fast which just prolongs your early-game advantage.

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I don't neccassarily want to bring QoT to == UB. I want to bring the best down a notch, and the weaker up.

I think Oak, Rook (bottom half of T1) and Sedna (upper T2) should be the "ruler" to guide. They have various roles they can play, various builds, even if some are better than others in general, and have a variety of different Favor Items available to them that can all be useful in certain situations. And they have a wide variety of skill lines that mostly tend to be useful. 

Occulus could be in there if he had more than one viable skill tree build and half his abilities weren't bugged and his passives didn't all mostly suck. 

Now, I don't want to crash and burn UB (and I do want to fix Bestial Wrath and I think I have a unique solution for that), and I have a LOT of concepts regarding balance. Lots. I could type up pretty much the total sum of how I would "balance the game" over the weekend if you beg me  

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Regarding Yeti's roles. 

Sedna has three major flaws throughout the course of the entire game (low armor and low hp being huge end-game but not a problem until then):

- lack of high, reliable damage output

- lack of AoE. 

- lack of ability to kill while chasing (this is because pounce screws up your autoattack because it doesn't have a snare effect like Pentitence or Bite, which allow the attacker to cast the animation and then catch up back into melee range. You can only pounce if you have Cloak of Night or Wand of Speed or they are Rook). 

There are two items that you can purchase that fix the first two flaws dramatically and the third somewaht:

- Nature's Reckoning

- Siege Gunners

Siege Gunners have splash, deal decent damage, help push towers, etc. NR is great for farming. Bishops also do nice dps once you get them as well. 

I've always imagined Yetis as being basically "mini" demigods. They should do decent enough damage you can't just ignore them (like say, one of Erebus' free night walkers) but not so much that you CAN'T ignore them (like a full horde of Oak Spirits with Ring of Divine Might, full Morale and Gloves). 

If I were to redesign them I would do the following (keeping in mind Yetis as a "bodyguard" type role for Sedna, and an infinite budget, and maintaining heterogeneity):

- Limit them to 1 for all levels. Reduce mana costs, and increase hp and armor accordingly (dps could be left as it is or slightly increased - they only do 13 dps at level 1). Have all minion-items have double an effect on the single Yeti. This number could be tied to the skill itself ("minion buffs have +50%/100%/150%/200% effectiveness"). Would be interesting if this also included non-item buffs, such as Fire Aura and Healing Wind. 

- Give them 100% cleave from the get go. They are melee and attack as slow as molasses so it's not a big deal. You could link this into a "crit" if a natural cleave is OP. 

- Make their pathing not terrible so they can properly chase enemies if you have Boots of Speed/Inner Grace/Wand of Speed

- Provide an "aggro" aura. All non-demigod enemies within 'X' range are provoked into attacking them and will chase them. This includes minions (which counter Sedna). Utilities:

  A: Creep wave control. You can draw enemy creep waves away from you or past you (or into towers), while your creepwave moves in on beat on your opponent or attack the other creepwave while it chases your Yeti around. 

  B: Monk pulling. The aggro range would have to be decently small (like 5-8 yards, which is half of most Aura's range) for this not to be abused, but you can run up your Yeti close enough to a monk to aggro them, then run your Yeti back straight into your towers. If you're engaged with a demigod, they are forced to autoattack your yeti while you beat on him, or lose his monks. Very effective against Assassins  

  C: Minion-build counter. It really only "delays" them since minions will melt Yetis with their 9000 dps but it still would be useful, especially for pulling to towers. 

- Provide a +armor aura for friendly demigods. Synergy with healing wind, and this could be made into the Level 15 skill if that was a big deal (or you could make the Aggro into the Level 15 if everyone screams OP.. which they probably will anyway). 

- To balance this, the Yeti must be within a certain range (20? 30?) to Sedna or they suicide. 

However, I don't think that Yetis themselves should do very much damage. They should be decently good at farming creeps up to Priests, but shouldn't be much of a threat to Giants (other than making them run around not dealing damage). Note that currently at level 1, one yeti only does 13 dps, which is roughly the dps of a single minotaur creep. I wouldn't have a problem with them keeping roughly that much dps against demigods. You could use Weapon Types to make Yetis do extra damage against minotaurs and minions without being stronger against demigods. Again, I don't think that Yetis should be particularly effective against other Demigods. 

If a Yeti is fighting alongside Sedna over a flag, you wouldn't feel a need to kill-it-or-die since it's damage is negligible. However, you might want to since the armor and aggro auras will work in Sedna's favor in the long run. On the other hand, it shouldn't take that long to kill it. 

Obviously, this could be terribly imbalanced, or still very UP. But I thought it was a unique way to redo Yetis (even though that would be a LOT of coding, see "infinite balance" above) and I think it would be an interesting way to cover Sedna's flags and bring something unique to the table. 

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June 11, 2010 2:22:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That Yeti stuff all sounds fine and good, but it would be really irritating if not impossible to implement from a code standpoint, nevermind balance:

1) Buff doubling is almost totally impossible.  You'd have to re-write the main buff code completely just to allow for that one unit.  Plus, I'm doubtful of the balance / gameplay value of buff doubling for one unit.

The only exception to this is the DamageBonus buff, which basically does this already - give a unit a DamageBonus.Add of 1, and it literally doubles their damage output, multiplying the result of all DamageRating.Adds and Mults.  Rook's towers use this buff.

2) There is likely nothing that can be done about their pathing, as that's all handled by the formation system in engine.

3) Because of 2), forcing them to stay in range or die would see them dying all the time, even if you boosted their speed.

etc etc

I could go on, but really all that needs to be said is that it's an unnecessary amount of work and an impossible-to-ever-fully-balance level of change for a balance mod, when all the yetis really need is a small to moderate hp/armor boost, and better damage output / area effect.

I also don't see any reason why Wild Swings has to do 75% AE; it should do 100%, and/or they should have AE built-in and Wild Swings should just radically increase their damage output (via DamageBonus).

Area aggro could also work, and would be simple to implement.  It would have to be short range and infrequent (once per 3 seconds or so), but at least it would get creeps focused on the yetis, and let you pull creeps into towers.  That sounds fun and relatively useful, without being uncounterable in the case of generals' minions (just spam regroup).

 

Also, the Wand of Speed doesn't affect minion speed at all.  Little known fact, apparently.  Boots of Speed, Journeyman Treads, Cloak of Elfinkind, and All-Father's Ring are the only speed items that also boost minion speed.  This includes the favor items, none of which touch minion speed.  Also, the A-F Ring only boosts minion speed 10%, while it boosts your speed 15%.  Who knows. v0v

 

I agree with your take on QoT for the most part, except that I know of no way to add debuff immunity without removing debuffs.  The former always invokes the latter.

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June 11, 2010 2:32:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I said that's what I would do given infinite resources, and from the ground-up, rather than a pure balance change. In reality, a drop in mana summoning costs and perma-AoE damage would let them serve their roles decently well, though they will still die a bit fast. I prefer overhauling game mechanics as opposed to smaller mathmatic changes. 

Please see the attached replay showing you that Wand of Speed does in fact modify your minions speed. All speed buffs to you also improve your army (surge of faith for example). That's why Wand of Speed is a crucial, yet infrequently purchased item for minion builds. 

http://www.box.net/shared/0qb211csvu

For the double-buff overhall, I would propose an invisible buff that would be attached to your character that would go through your current active Item Blueprints and find minion bonus, then multiply them. You might have to reset them at the shop or onDrop for items. It would be a lot of work, and not something I would propose we do. But if I had unlimited resources... 

 

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June 11, 2010 2:48:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Welp, replay won't show up in my replay manager, Demigod v1.2.  No idea.

I just looked through the buff, hero, and minion code, and can't figure out where that would take place.  It would have to be in the engine.

So then, do items with a minion speed buff actually increase minion speed beyond that of their demigod?

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June 11, 2010 2:57:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yep. I'm not sure if Fire Aura and Surge of Faith have a double effect or not (eg, it buffs your Demigod and then buffs your minions indivisually as well). 

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June 11, 2010 3:50:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting miriyaka,
That Yeti stuff all sounds fine and good, but it would be really irritating if not impossible to implement from a code standpoint, nevermind balance:

1) Buff doubling is almost totally impossible.  You'd have to re-write the main buff code completely just to allow for that one unit.  Plus, I'm doubtful of the balance / gameplay value of buff doubling for one unit.


You can also just add an additional buff for every buff. Have it check to see what the target is and then apply the correct one. Not worth it though.

The only exception to this is the DamageBonus buff, which basically does this already - give a unit a DamageBonus.Add of 1, and it literally doubles their damage output, multiplying the result of all DamageRating.Adds and Mults.  Rook's towers use this buff.


Isn't this true for all Mult buffs?

2) There is likely nothing that can be done about their pathing, as that's all handled by the formation system in engine.

I've had some luck changing some of their movement characteristics. Changing the Steering parameters in the blueprints does result in some changes. Although I've been having to rely upon trial and error, making the category type HERO does seem to prevent units from getting stuck in the citadel. It also makes units unable to move through walls.


Area aggro could also work, and would be simple to implement.  It would have to be short range and infrequent (once per 3 seconds or so), but at least it would get creeps focused on the yetis, and let you pull creeps into towers.


This was escapes me, how would you do that?

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June 11, 2010 10:23:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Ptarth,
Isn't this true for all Mult buffs?

DamageBonus is a completely separate buff from DamageRating.  DamageRating is added to weapon base damage, and then the result is multiplied by DamageBonus, which is a pure mult.  You can 'Add' to DamageBonus, but adding 1 makes it a 2x multiplier.  Then doing a mult of 2 to that would mean quadrupling damage.

Meanwhile, a DamageRating Mult just multiplies all the Adds to DamageRating.  When you only have one mult, they're roughly the same thing, but DamageRating Mults stack additively, where DamageBonus can multiply multiple added DamageRating Mults.  Yeah, I don't know.  They only used it for tower buffs as far as I can tell, but it should work (albeit with possible balance issues) with any demigod/minion weapon as well.


Quoting Ptarth,
making the category type HERO does seem to prevent units from getting stuck in the citadel. It also makes units unable to move through walls.

This would have a tooooon of side-effects though, and probably not help the yetis very much with their normal movement problems (which have more to do with the engine's weird squad/formation system than anything else).

Quoting Ptarth,
This was escapes me, how would you do that?

Incredibly easy.  Ability aura pulse with 'Enemy' alliance and MOBILE -HERO affect category that calls ClearCommandQueue() and then IssueAttack({minion}, yeti) in OnAuraPulse or whatever the function is called.  If it can't be done directly using the aura, add a dummy buff that does it in OnBuffAffectUnit or whatever.

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June 11, 2010 2:19:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I also think I got you setup on the Google Code UberFix project.

Changing Steering.Category to 'Hero' may be more useful than you  think. I haven't explored a lot with it yet, but it does change a lot of unit movement behaviors. Its on the list of things I should look into, but right now I haven't seen any undesired side effects.

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