[MOD] LOP QoT

By on June 4, 2010 7:59:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

LORD-ORION

Join Date 04/2009
+51

Ptarth and I have created a mod for QoT.

After an exchange of around 100 private messages debating QoT and a dozen test versions, this is ready for you to try. Although we don't agree on everything and have each made compromises for our respective visions of QoT, we both have a good feel for this build. We are satisfied you will enjoy it and find it fair in gameplay. If you are hesitant, you should download it to simply see the level 10 shield effect. I know I did recast it several times when I first saw it, mesmerized. Ptarth is awesome 'nuff said. 

Please share your opinions and gameplay experiencs using this mod.

Thanks,
LORD-ORION & Ptarth


Message from Ptarth:

Wiki Started

http://code.google.com/p/uberfix/wiki/LOPQoT

Each ability should have its own page where changes are discussed. I haven't created individual pages yet. There should also be base stats for all demigods for all levels and all abilities. Some build power cutoffs should also be calculated to create baselines. If anyone else wants to do these things or other things, that would be great. Also, I'm not sure who it gives write access to. If someone could check that, that would also be great.


Latest Version

Link to LOPQoT v8

Change List

Mulch

  • AutoMulching Implemented.
  • Automatically destroys the oldest shambler.
  • AOE Damage is divided evenly between all shamblers.
  • Units near all shamblers will take listed damage.
  • Other units will take damage proportional to the number of shamblers they are near.
  • A better tooltip is needed. Suggestions welcome.
  • Explosion timer reduced to 0.5 seconds from 2 seconds.

Entourage

  • + 10 Shambler weapon damage per level
  • +100 Shambler Armor per level
  • +165 Shambler Health per level

Tribute

  • +10 Gold production from +4. 

Bramble Shield

  • Absorb: 700,950,1200,1450
  • Cost: 400,560,720,880
  • Efficiency: 1.75 1.70 1.67 1.64
  •  When QoT casts Bramble Shield IV on herself she becomesimmune to debuffs for 3 seconds. Current Active debuffs are unaffected.

Ground Spikes

  • Returned to original form

 

Goddess of Thorns

  • The 15% damage reduction and 35 damage retaliation becomes a passive ability active only for the QoT at all times.

Compost

  • Shambler/QoT Weapon Damage 6/12/18/36/54
  • Shambler/QoT MaxHealth Increase 60/120/180/240/300


Spike Wave

  • Spike wave is now an interrupt

Uproot

  • Total damage increased to 750/1250/1750/2250
  • QoT attack Range Increase Removed
  • QoT Weapon Damage Increased by 15/30/45/60
  • Uproot can heal towers.

Violent Siege

  • Damage is 225 per tick at 15 yards radius.
  • This damage is mitigated by armor

 

Previous Versions

LOPQoT

Change List

Mulch
Explosion timer reduced to 0,5 seconds from 2 seconds.

Entourage
+ 10 damage per level

Tribute
+10 Gold production from +4.

Bramble Shield III
Removes debuff on cast

Bramble Shield IV
When you cast this on yourself, you are immune to debuffs for 3 seconds. (with an awesome effect)

Ground Spikes
Armor reduction is removed in exchange for % damage increase.

Damage % is +10/+15/+20/+25

Goddess of Thorns
The 15% damage reduction and 35 damage retaliation becomes a permanent aura

Compost
Minions +12 damage per level
QoT +12 damage per level
QoT + 125 life per level

Spike Wave
Spike wave is now an interrupt

Uproot
Total damage over 10 ticks is now
750/1250/1750/2250

QoT attack Range
+1/+1/+1//+2 yards

QoT Damage
+15/30/45/60

Uproot can heal towers.

Violent Siege
Damage is 225 per tick at 15 yards radius.
This damage is mitigated by armor

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June 4, 2010 11:52:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm also working on the auto-mulching feature. It is proving to be trickier than I had imagined. However, I should have it figured out soon (or I give up and go back to doing something complete different).

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June 5, 2010 4:11:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I should also mention that we're trying to setup a complete rebalance of all the demigods. It will be an eventual process starting with the weakest Demigods first. Lord Orion has joined in with this, but we could use more help if you are interested. As you can see from my work (UberFix, this mod, and previous mods) I can code a lot of different types of changes and I've been able to produce code. So making progress on the mod will happen. However, I lack infinite time, especially given my potential more important work on the UberFix, so I need help in making it happen.

Things we could really use:

  • Balance Design: Ideas on what balance needs. Formulas for demonstrating things are balanced.
  • Testers: People to actually test the mods and validate if they work how we think they do.
  • Thread Coordinators: People to consolidate information from threads so all the information is in the same place.
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June 5, 2010 4:19:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So, download the mod and tell us what awesome things YETI's should do for the next mod.

Tip: Sedna's Yetis are very powerful and durable minions. 

*Falls out of chair*

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June 5, 2010 4:22:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think them being smaller so they didn't have so much trouble running around plus being less mana would help them.

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June 5, 2010 4:32:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
  • I'm still not satisfied with the current QoT Balance. It hasn't been sufficiently tested and we still don't have automulch.
  • Can we keep the various balance discussions in separate threads? It gets confusing mixing them together.
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June 5, 2010 4:34:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Keke, oops

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June 5, 2010 4:36:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Random Ideas

Make them faster and give them like a 1/2/5/9% chance to stun their target for 0.5/0.5/1/2 seconds.

Give them a large health increase.

Make wild swings increase damage taken by the afflicted target by 20%

Make yetis soak up nearby damage until they die. (you will likely need to reduce their hp if you do this)

  • Sedna or any ally near the yeti is hit by a fireball with 1050 damage, there is a level 1 yeti with 810 health, the allied demigod takes 240 damage and the yeti dies.
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June 5, 2010 4:45:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If anyone is interested in testing it I'm on Vent now looking for people for game.

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June 5, 2010 5:09:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I still think that Yetis should be 1-1-2-2 but have AoE and be all around awesome. Basically, a miniature "guardian" demigod. It would be interesting if they were "spell immune" if they were within a certain range of Sedna (healing wind II) to prevent them from dying from AoE all the time. 

However, I feel like this homogenizes the demigods way too much. As in, virtually every change serves solely to steal an attribute another demigod has. It's a matter of opinion of whether that is good or bad, but for me, it is really really bad. I hate homogenized games even if they are much easier to balance. 

You took attributes that Oak and Sedna have (who they are often compared against, for good reason) and made them comparable.

1- You applied Shield-III bullshit and Heal III into Shield. You can frontload the shield against a UB who spits on you, for example. Rather than Sedna or Oak, who have to decide whether or not to waste their debuff removal while they have full hp or eat the damage, Queen would get to eat her cake and have it too. She removes the debuff and keeps her frontloded health pool. 

2- You applied Penitence to Ground Spikes but made it scale better. It's nerfed anti-creeps, I guess, but it now brutally synergies with AoE. Ground Spikes & Spike Wave + Chain Lightning & Blast Off would deal 3812 damage to every demigod in the vicinity at level 10, and can be recasted every 6.5 seconds. Meanwhile, against say, UB + Oak, it is instantly countered with a shield. 

3- You applied Boulder Roll to Spike Wave. 

--

You basically took the three skills that were GOOD for Queen and made her worth playing and then made them crazy good. Spike Wave, Ground Spikes and Shield were all very good skills (Shield devastates early game, but it's "balanced" because  it is weaker later on. Basically, the exact opposite of Oak. Complain all you want, but that is how that ability is designed.). I do think that Shield III and Shield IV could have had a reduced mana cost because they were absurdly expensive, and making them cheaper mana-wise would help her use her other abilities more often. 

It is my personal belief that everyone imagines Queen (and TB) to be this pathetically underpowered demigod that can't hold a candle to anyone, but that's incorrect. Queen has strengths and weaknesses and her weaknesses tend to be more apparent when you play her incorrectly. Except against TB and Occulus, Queen can beat most other demigods without too much of an issue if she is in a creep wave, especially with Giants on both sides. Sedna is the exact opposite. She can 1v1 even a fed beast out of a lane, but she can't fight most demigods in a creeplane with Giants. Does this mean that Sedna is underpowered and Queen is overpowered because you tend to fight in lanes? No. It's just playstyle. 

 

I'm okay with the changes to Mulch, Entourage, Tribute and Compost. They might actually be worth getting occasionally. Except for the fact that her active skills will blow them out of the water so people probably won't. Who needs to mulch when you're too busy killing everyone? 

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June 5, 2010 5:46:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Part of the current resolution for the QoT Mod was to make changes that aren't completely different from what the abilities are now and are not different than other abilities. Given the backlash from other more unique changes I made in the Focus Mod, it seems that the people do not like the idea of unique changes. In order to get any official changes made, we'd need to get a solid proportion of the current online community supporting it. We'd also need to have relatively small changes instead of massive ones.

So to address Hedgie's points.

ODG -> Original Demigod (aka Demigod version 1.21 - current version.)

1. Bramble Shield

  • Mana Efficiencies for the shield were set to scale better than in ODG
  • Shield 3 removes debuffs from target
  • Shield 4 removes debuffs from target. Also if the target is the caster then the QoT gains a 3 second debuff immunity displayed by the purple shield effect.

At Shield IV the QoT is somewhat immune to spit.

Scenario I

  • QoT Shields up and enters combat with Spit UB.
  • Beast waits 3 seconds for purple shield to go away. During this period of time the Shield loses 3 seconds worth of Autoattack damage.
  • Beast Spits and QoT reshields. Her shield is refreshed to full and she completely neutralizes the spit.
  • End result: QoT loses 2 shields worth of mana and has a fresh shield, no health loss. UB loses 1 Spit worth of mana and takes 3 seconds worth of Autoattack damage.

Scenario II

  • Qot doesn't shield up and enters combat with Spit UB.
  • Beast spits and QoT shields.
  • End result: QoT loses 1 shield worth of mana. UB loses 1 Spit worth of mana.

Note

  • QoT has to switch forms if she wants to use her offensive abilities and defensive abilities. Switching takes deactivates her abilities for some time (2 seconds).
  • Ooze UB has no real problems with this. The Ooze Debuff is removed, but refreshed on 1 tick intervals (I think).
Conclusion
QoT is much more mana based. She can continually cycle her shield, but once her mana is gone she is back to the same QoT as in ODG.

Another issue is the QoT's ability to portal lock. If she goes for a portal she shields and can capture it without any issues. She can then reshield and teleport out without problem either.

2. Ground Spikes

Ground Spikes is too good against Towers and Creeps because they lack armor. I believe that negative armor was not taken into account when balancing abilities. Actually, now that I think about it. It may be possible to leave armor reduction against Demigods and use damage increases against nonDemigods. That's a thought.

The numbers chosen for Ground Spike damage increase corresponds to the average Demigod Armor by level. The net damage increase when only considering autoattack damage is roughly the same between versions of Ground Spikes. The problem comes from Ability damage which is now boosted. It also makes it so that QoT with any Burst damage Demigod is much more serious. However, to counter this, comparing the damage from two Spike Damage Demigods versus the damage from QoT + Spike damage, the two Spike Damage Demigods would produce more damage.

I'm not sure what "Meanwhile, against say, UB + Oak, it is instantly countered with a shield." means in this context.

3. Spike Wave

The abilities are actually very different. The important part is that Spike Wave does not have a stun. It merely interrupts. Not only does it not have a stun, but the spikewave has to travel the distance to intercept your target before the interrupt activates. This results requiring the QoT to predict well in advance when a target is going to use an ability, to only interrupt long casting time abilities, or to be very, very close to their target.

LO wants the QoT to have an interrupt. That essentially forces the interrupt to be on Spike Wave or Ground Spikes. I've got mixed feelings, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

4. Uproot

Uproot is still very troublesome. My current re-emplement is to have it be more like Ice Rain than Spit (as it is now). A range 20 AOE that deals extra damage versus enemy towers and heals allied towers. This would also be more useful in balancing the AOE. Thoughts?

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June 5, 2010 10:45:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Because of orientation done when using consumables (especially ports), 3 seconds isn't enough to guarantee a port against characters with an instant interrupt (Penitence, Deep Freeze, Silence, Foul Grasp). Just so you know. 

Also, all abilities that guarantee locks (Mass Charm IV, Silence I, Shield III, Frost Nova III, Boulder Roll III) share a long cooldown on their abilities { 20, 15, 25, 15, 15 }. Sedna can drop it down about 10 seconds but that's it. This is a LOT different than an ability most Queen players get at level 10 anyway and is constantly beneficial and spammable. 

Shield is also one of the few abilities that you can frontload. (summoning minions and Rook's towers being the rest). Frontloading is ENORMOUS. 

Let me tell you how Scenario 1 and 2 would really work out with good players:

Scenario 1: 

  • QoT Shields up and enters combat with Spit UB. While walking to him, she opens.
  • Beast waits 3 seconds for purple shield to go away. During this period of time the Shield loses 3 seconds worth of Autoattack damage and UB gets Ground Spikes. Queen closes and her minions (Monks and Siege demolishers) pelt him. 
  • Beast Spits 
  • Queen eats the damage to her shield and then it pops.
  • She takes a few seconds with of auto attack damage which her monks will heal off while she is shielded for the next rotation cycle. (frontloaded hp is a bitch).
  • She then shields just as UB's spit is about to come off of cooldown again. UB is forced to delay spitting for 3 seconds. Meanwhile, she opens up against to Ground Spike. 

Scenario 2:

  • Qot doesn't shield up and enters combat with Spit UB.
  • Beast spits and QoT shields. Spit is completely negated but she still gets the extra buffer to her health (unlike a Sedna who Heal III just as soon as she is spat on). 
  • The shield pops in auto attack + Ooze. 
  • UB is left with a choice: 1) Beast Spits on Queen, who then shields it off again, or Beast tries to hold his Spit until after she shields as a result of AA + Ooze. If she shields, then he has to wait 3 seconds (half a cooldown) for it to wear off. By the time he spits again, it will only deal 4-5 ticks at best before she re-shields.
  • End result: UB is dealing half-damage with spit half as fast (so 25% damage output) while Queen enjoys all the benefits of Shield completely. 

She will also be immune to Ooze attack debuff during roughly half of this. That isn't a huge deal, since autoattack is a small portion of her damage output, but it still makes a slight difference. (I do classify it as insignificant. Autoattack damage doesn't become important until level 15 or so). 

Also, Ooze UB is barely a competitive build. It has its perks and it can be used in certain match-ups. However, an Ooze UB requires massive amount of support and doesn't do well in 1v1 battles. That's why I hate playing with Ooze beasts on my time. They think because they have 9k hp they can go crazy while I support them and I end up overextending trying to save them. This is typical of most UB players, mind you. Most people don't know how to support only kill -.- 

I'm not sure what "Meanwhile, against say, UB + Oak, it is instantly countered with a shield." means in this context.

Oak Pent's and UB spits a single target. Queen shields. Debuffs for both pent and spit are removed. This is no different then Heal III, but Heal III also does not frontload. 

I do agree that giving Spike Wave an interrupt is not a huge deal. SW barely does enough damage to justify its usage and I usually only use it for chasing. It is still homogenizing, however, which is why I brought it up. 

If you are really worried about negative armor being OP, remove negative armor from the game. I never considered Queen to be OP against towers and creeps. Ground Spikes is really really expensive and Rook melts towers better than Queen. However, Ground Spikes /is/ devastating when used in a creepwave backed with Giants. This is Queen's 1 major end-game strength and why you have to be very careful to time your attacks when the creepwaves are dead. 

Uproot is still very troublesome. My current re-emplement is to have it be more like Ice Rain than Spit (as it is now). A range 20 AOE that deals extra damage versus enemy towers and heals allied towers. This would also be more useful in balancing the AOE. Thoughts?

If you do this, you must consider how the Rook and Queen dynamic would be changed, both laned against eacho ther and paired together. How would 2 enemy demigods counter a tower farm that was healing AoE while taking damage from Uproot? Rook walks forward, plants a tower in their face, Queen Uproots it. 

Similarily, how does Rook deal with an ability that is casted out of range of his tower farm that does bonus damage against all his towers (RoI gives Rook a lot of problems but it only does 200-400-600-800 damage. Even if it was 150-300-450-600 normally but did 2x against towers (or something like that) then how would a Rook deal with that, especially when combined with the effects of Compost (or were those removed?)). 

---

Again, I think that Uproot, Compost and Entourage all need to be worked out (and mulch needed the reduced effect timer). However, Shield, Spike Wave and Ground Spikes were all fine as they were before. Shield III and IV needed a slight mana cost reduction. Queen is not UP, especially on Levi. 

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June 6, 2010 1:27:34 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Haven't looked at the buff code in detail, but if it works at all like the buffs in FA, it should be relatively easy to insure that armor doesn't go negative from a buff.  You could likely even do this for creeps only, if you want to keep the possibility of negative armor for demigods.

 

Ground Spikes

I agree with hedgehog that implementing Ground Spikes like this is unnecessarily effective against enemy Demigods, and turns it into a mass-effect Penitence, which is extremely unfair to Oak (and anyone caught in its AoE).  Curtail negative armor and stay with its original functionality.

 

Bramble Shield

From the perspective of a primarily UB/DA player trying to kill QoT, Bramble Shield is definitely not anything close to useless until way later in the game (20-25m+ with high gold income, really), and even then it has its moments.  It could be kept useful longer without making it ridiculously powerful by slightly reducing mana cost at the higher levels.

Debuff removal is not good.  This is not shield.  It doesn't have the long cooldown, and it lasts a hell of a lot longer.  If mana cost is further reduced (which would be fine), there is absolutely no way it would be even remotely balanced with even debuff removal, nevermind temp immunity.

Let me hammer this home: Shield (any level) has FIVE TIMES the cooldown, lasts 1/5th as long, and has the same cost and max range.  That's roughly 1/25th the value of BS IV if both remove debuffs.  Yes, it provides invulnerability, but as anyone who is paying attention will switch targets once shield goes on, you could argue that-- practically speaking-- BS IV is actually going to absorb a lot more damage in any scenario where the target doesn't have 2+ high-damage demigods slamming into them, delivering certain, imminent death.  And even then, it can be recast or even cast on another demigod within roughly 5 seconds.  Just make it more economical.

Also remember that part of the perceived problem with Bramble Shield is actually a problem with so many of the game's items - there's just so much health to stack that 1450hp can seem like not very much at all.  I think this needs to be addressed if you're going to do a full rebalance of all of the Demigods individually, as it affects each one differently.

 

Spike Wave

SW III has a 15-second cooldown, instead of 10s at the other levels.  I'd suggest limiting the interrupt to level III only, because of this.  SW's velocity is not low enough for that to be a serious disadvantage - it can still hit any target in range in 1.5 seconds, which is better than some other demigods' interrupts (*cough*DA*cough*), and does good damage, and slows.  An interrupt is fine, just not a 10-second-cooldown interrupt.

 

Uproot

Whatever you do, keep it single-target or small-AoE.  Keep its primary effect to structures.  Definitely do not go with large AoE that can also hit non-structures without Violent Siege - QoT does not need to be turned directly into TB.

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June 6, 2010 1:46:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I decided I'm okay with an interrupt on Spike Wave. It's very limiting. You have to wait in open-form (similar to TB and Frost Nova/DF) because if you change you won't be able to interrupt anything if you factor in cast and travel time. Even then, it is slow. However, it does have the "feature" of basically interrupting everyone in a lane, so it's one of the few abilities that could stop a lock at 10000 meters away. It's also not very cost effective and it's on a long cooldown. 

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June 6, 2010 2:28:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
  • re: 3 second debuff immunity insufficient to block teleport/flag lock

Thanks for the heads up.

  • Compost's side effects on Uproot are trivial and readily dismissed and ignored in my mind.
  • Uproot is a problem. If Uproot is kept as a anti-tower ability, then it has to be useful against towers and it has to compete with Ground Spikes. I'm not sure what a good solution is to this. All of the ideas I've come up with have seemingly been insufficient.
  • Shield III & IV. Shield is Lord Orion's baby, so I'm not sure I can offer reasonable defense against it. How would the removal of the 3 second anti-debuff work out to satisfy things. This would leave the debuff removal as per Oak, Sedna, and Oculus.

As for the values of Heal versus Shield. The following should illuminate the issues.

Sedna Heal

  • Heals: 600,900,1200,1500
  • Cost: 375,500,625,750
  • Efficiency: 1.60 1.80 1.92 2.00

Qot Shield (original)

  • Absorb: 700,950,1200,1450
  • Cost: 400,560,720,840
  • Efficiency: 1.75 1.70 1.67 1.73

Qot Shield revised

  • Absorb: 700,1100,1500,1900
  • Cost: 400,560,720,880
  • Efficiency: 1.75 1.96 2.08 2.16
  • re: Compost & Entourage
    • I'm not really sure. What do you think about the current ones?
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June 6, 2010 4:09:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Turning only effects ports. 3 seconds is still enough to safely lock except in an extremely laggy game. I also forgot to include Swap since as long as you begin the animation you'll bring her back. It's just a "special case" because it has a long cast. DF, Grasp, Pentitence and Silence are all "fast" enough to be able to finish their cast in the same-or-less amount of time it takes for your character to turn to face wherever you're porting. Of course, turning around behind you to face where you want to turn reduces this very slightly. 

If you're ultra-pro, you can start casting a delayed stun or interrupt (Pounce, Frost Nova, Mass Charm) to hit your roughly third of a second window of opportunity. 

---

It's a logical fallacy to compare Heal versus Bramble.

They are entirely different abilities and provide different roles (Shield is proactive and therefore aggressive, Heal is reactive and therefore defensive), and, besides removing debuffs Shield has much more utility (200 AoE doesn't count) and therefore can be used much more skillfully, versus Heal which is mostly, "hey look, I'm almost dead, I should heal!": 

Shield:

- Can be frontloaded (it's proactive) this has various benefits:

   a) shielding at crystal (guarantees the XP flag early game) and porting into a combat to shield an ally

   can walk into combat with all your teammates shielded which makes choosing a target very difficult

   c) there is no risk for shielding yourself "early" (as with heal, you have to wait until ~60% hp to maximize its efficiency). You can't "waste" a shield except using it out of combat and letting it fade, which is not different than healing yourself out of combat when monks could have healed you.

- Designed to be stronger early game but weaker late game (based on the raw numbers of protection it provides)

- Is an instant (no cast time which means you can cast is slightly more frequently and also it can't be interrupted) 

- Synergies great with monks (take a few hundred damage, shield. Your monks will heal the damage taken while your shield is up). 

- You can't tell the level of shield by looking at it

- You can shield monks to push towers. This is an under-used tactic but it is extremely powerful because of tower targeting mechanics. This also is a crucial tactic to use against a Rook. Actually there are several times that shielding monks can be worth it (shopping and leaving your monk with your assassin buddy who is already shielded). 

 

Heal:

- Follows the "normal" scaling factor in demigod. Each progressive level builds on half of the value of the first level, or the entire value of the first level, depending on what that first level is. Similarly, it gains additional benefits @ 7 and 10. 

- Cast time

- Heal I and II aren't really that good. Since it is a reactive ability, in order to maximize your heals you have to heal at ~30-50% hp, which puts you at significant risk to stuns. Once you are level 7 and properly health stacked it doesn't get quite that bad. Conversely, Heal III and IV are both quite powerful since Heal IV is one of the most mana-efficient single-target swing abilities in the game. In other words, Sedna gets carried by Healing Wind II more than Heal early game. 

 

I do not contest that Shield III and Shield IV do not scale very well. This can better be solved by fixing itemization issues in the game, the flags on Cataract and with a slight mana cost drop rather than reworking a skill entirely or taking on completely unnecessary side effects. Also you have to remember Queen has a secondary on-demand heal skill and it's the largest in the game at a whopping 2250. Resolving her mana-addict ways or simply reducing the cost of Shield III and IV (marginally... like 50-150) are better solutions. 

An alternative solution would be to not improve the amount of hp that Shield IV protects (compared to Shield III) but instead make it effective against Armor and drop it's mana cost by 200 (similar to Power of the Tower IV). Ability damage : Auto attack ratio peaks around levels 12-13. Typically after level 15 or so, autoattack becomes much more significant, which is where Shield stops to deliver. This covers up this flaw, and also allows her to not suffer with mana-issues. Yes, Shield IV wouldn't provide any additional protection from skills, but it would help more against AutoAttack (therefore making it scalable in addition to her other scaling defense, Goddess of Thorns) and if it costs 200 mana less, it reduces your mana consumption by 31 mps. 

Currently the best way to deal with a Queen (and always has been) is "don't feed into that meat grinder until level 8 or so", said by tsughes, who led one of the best 3v3 teams. This is mostly an issue of Shield not scaling. This is why I don't prioritize Shield since Mulch is superior in terms of team utility and mana-efficiency. After all, a closed Queen is a Queen too scared to come out of her bulb and therefore will not be able to scare me away. 

If you play Queen properly on Levi, you'll see she works out quite a bit differently since the early game is prolonged on that map (lower gold income, and sharing a lane results in no "fed" mana-side player and overall everyone has weaker items and can't sigil spam as early, nor is it as effective lower-level with worse items and no hp flag). 

 

---

Uproot versus Ground Spikes against towers

Uproot can be safely used against all towers, since it out-distances towers. Ground Spikes puts Queen in danger since in order to maximize it she has to be in range of multiple towers (in the case of Rook). 

The best way to balance to Uproot is to make it's mana cost negligible. Make it similar to Regulus' sniper scope. Snipe Scope gives Reg the ability to do slow damage to enemy towers at no risk of himself (and also to kite marginally better but it is rarely noticeable). This behavior becomes huge in both Levi and Zikkurut. Levi because you can stand on your flag and shoot their tower. Zik because you can actually shoot their tower from the safety of your own. 

Basically, make the real "cost" in Uproot that you're giving up the choice in putting points into something else. Make it a way for Queen to do reliable, safe, unpreventable damage to towers in an interval. The amount of points a person decides to do it is entirely based on how quickly they want to do this damage. 

You can lower the damage, drastically lower the mana (think like 150 mana per cast). Keep the range the same. Maybe make it channeled (like Structural Transfer) or give it a long and obvious cast time so a defender can interrupt. 

Going with the channel idea, it could be something that costs X mana per second, does Y damage per second and can be interrupted but with a decently long cooldown (10 or 20 seconds?). Putting additional skill points into it increases Y but leaves X the same. Compost could be modified to reduce X or increase Y as you gain "levels".

This is a heterogeneous solution that also preserves the original utility and design direction of the skill without making it absurd against/with Rook. 

---

 

Also. BOOM!

 

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June 6, 2010 4:50:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Part of the problem with me balancing is that I'm not ultra-pro. I'm middling average. Hence my unlimited harassment when it comes to figuring out things. I should also probably try to play more with better players instead of the noob pickup games I tend to end up playing.

While I agree with the spirit of your analysis, I don't know how well I like your semantics. Heal and Bramble Shield are both abilities that extend a Demigods life and do so by providing a buffer of health/shield points. Your point that it is proactive versus retroactive I think is a more valid semantic approach.

I don't know how well the argument for shield being designed for a purpose will hold up. Given the code and the information about how Demigod was balanced, I don't see anything to support that idea. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just unconvinced.

Heal synergizes very well with monks given that Sedna has the ability and she also has Healing Wind which buffs her monk healing by a good margin (5-7%).

I think the Shield graphic should vary in color based upon what rank of shield you are using. But that's just me and my desire to make things pretty. Your point is well founded.

Changing Shield to take damage after Armor is applied would require altering the basic combat mechanic (or creating a second type of shield ability). I'm not convinced that changes should be made at the mechanics level at this point. I find it reasonable that shielding is reduced before armor is applied, but that may be my conservative bent.

Uproot is problematic. What use can Uproot provide that can justify half the points of a level 10 QoT Build? I'm not sure. Your ideas sound reasonable.

Consider this more unique approach. Use the channeling idea, but reduce the cooldown. You'd have an initial startup casting time then you start draining the tower, but you could interrupt to do something else and then return to draining. Possibly even provide mana and hp to the QoT. In other words have structural transfer but without a large cooldown. The damage would be balanced to approximately autoattack damage. In other words it would be the equivalent of a Regulus autoattacking a tower with a tower-only life steal item.

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June 6, 2010 5:53:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't want to be rude here, but I'm arguably probably the best Sedna in the game. If not the best, certainly one of the top 10.

Heal has terrible synergy with monks. They provide overlapping roles and "overhealing" will result in monks healing unimportant targets instead of yourself. If you replaced Heal with Ooze, Sedna would be far stronger since Ooze has far far superior synergy with Healing Wind. I would argue that Bramble provides better synergy than Heal with Monks.

I also don't really see Heal as a "buffer" as merely an extension. Shield is a true buffer as it must be depleted before being able to damage your actual health. Unless you consider Sigils, monk heals, and pots to be a buffer as well.

That said, this mostly has to do with Healing Wind being made of awesome in 1v1 and 2v2 rather than Heal being underpowered since it gives you free Bishops at level 5. (It's benefit varies from 5 to 7% depending on your level of monks.)

-- 

To say "designed" is simply because the devs decided to make it not follow the standard X - 1.5X - 2X - 2.5X progression most skills follow. It is important to note that at one point Queen was absurdly overpowered and was heavily nerfed. The mana-progression for Shield is likely a symptom of that. It obviously works very well early-game.

Also, in general the devs and beta-players believed that speed and overall mobility were the strongest balance points. This is also shown when the game was first released, when everyone and their mother used Swift Anklet and UB's got Boots of Speed with their starting 1k. 

Items like Warpstone were cheaper and abused, compared to much more broken items like Heart of Life and BotF (to a lessar extent) were rarely used.

Look how many speed skills and items exist. Virtually every demigod has one or has a snare. 

You can find this information in the archived beta boards. 

--

I would say that there is no good reason to invest more than 1-2 points in Uproot, unless against a Rook and you dedicate yourself to following him around the map. By level 15, there are no or very little towers, regardless of what map you are on, and any level 15 demigod lols at towers.

You would have to give a very strong level 15 power to compensate or each level in Uproot benefit Queen somehow. It is very similar to Mist. There is literally no point getting additional points in Mist except to get the level 15 ability, which is quite good.

Therefore, most good Erebus players get additional points in mist from levels 16-20, since Mist is good enough at doing what it does (stall for backup, wait for CD on bite or batswarm, or remove debuffs) with just one point, and you ARENT using it for the damage or the tiny friendly heal. 

I think Uproot will fall into this very same category. 

I would think it would follow a similar pattern as Angelic Fury. X - 2X  - 3X - 4X. 

It's also important to note that Queen can also accomplish this very same behavior (safely destroying towers at no risk of herself) simply by investing in Demolishers, which have synergy with Ground Spikes (as it is currently implemented). 

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June 6, 2010 1:59:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

re: Sedna

Well, I'll have you know that my Sedna is pretty bad.

re: Sedna Synergize

To clarify my current (potentially invalid stance) I consider Heal to synergize with Priests because of the following argument. Heal is only available with Sedna. Sedna is built to outlast her opponents, not outdamage. Sedna gets Healing Wind which increases her regen and increases the Heals provided by Priests. The large health regeneration and heal pool available to Sedna allows her to absorb the Ability damage from other Demigods and then force the fight into autoattacks. At that point she has superior health regen, superior healing, and the Heal spell. The weakness of Heals slow cast and recharge are covered by the high regen and priest healing. She also then has silence which can interrupt or remove other Demigod abilities which also allows her to take advantage of her higher health regen/priest/heal. Lastly, Autoattack damage is mitigated by armor which gives her an additional advantage when the fight is reduced to autoattacks.

Re: Bramble Shield

So, what more useful things do I know.

Demigod v1.0 Bramble Shield stats

Absorption 600, 800, 1000, 1200
Energy cost 400, 560, 720, 840
Efficiency 1.5, 1.43, 1.39, 1.43

Other changes from 1.0 to 1.21 are:

  • Duration dropped from 60 to 30
  • Cooldown dropped from 15 to 7

I'll go look at the beta boards. But I can already tell that's not going to be any fun. Although I'll admit I had forgotten they were still here.

re: Heal as a buffer

Again we have semantic problems, I see health in general as a buffer. Shield is just another type of health. Again though, it is a semantic argument and not important.

re:Uproot

Lord Orion liked the idea of Uproot providing range increases to the QoT autoattack (in addition to the normal skill). How do you feel about that?

Updated re:Beta Boards

So I browsed the last 20 pages of the Beta Feedback Thread. It contains a whole lot of no real content. I found a few mentions of the QoT. But the only thing that people were talking about was Uproot. Their opinions on it varied, but no numbers were given. Unless you can give me a better reference, I'm considering it a waste of time. Amusingly enough I found a post talking about Lord Erebus suiciding via drinking own Poisoned Blood potion and the various positions on it. That made me laugh.

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June 6, 2010 4:43:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The following is the start of a list for the various balance threads.Feel free to add any I haven't found yet.

General
gkrit's balance thread: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371153
GM-MAGNUS333's Demigod balance thread http://forums.demigodthegame.com/383135

Demon Assassin
gkrit's DA: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/370374

Torch Bearer
gkrit TB: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371207

Unclean Beast
gkrit UB: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371232

Regulus
gkrit Reg: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371233

Queen of Thorns
QoT Focus Mod: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/372817/
LOPQoT: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/383426
gkrit QoT: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371491
Nutrient Extraction http://forums.demigodthegame.com/370353

Oak
gkrit Oak: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371505

Sedna
gkrit Sedna: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371509

Rook
gkrit Rook: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371508

Erebus
gkrit Erebus: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/371597

Oculus
gkrit Oculus: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/373907

Favor Items
http://forums.demigodthegame.com/369815

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June 6, 2010 5:17:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sedna has the lowest armor for melee characters and has the lowest hp out of most of the characters (which is really the only way to balance her, though I still think she should get a slight armor/level bonus to help her deal with end-game creeplanes better). Her regen isn't also that great compared to Narmoths ring on a UB. Then he is getting something like 70 hps between the ring, other items, and lifesteal. Because of the auto-attack debuff of Ooze (and it killing Sedna's creepwave), that negates a lot of UB's incoming damage. Really, Heal just allows UB to Ooze himself to death. 

That said, having Counter Heal helps a ton, though that has its own issues, as we have previously discussed. 

 

Bramble shield has always had a 7 second cooldown, I don't know what you mean. 

I'm against Uproot copying Sniper Scope because it homogenizes. There should be a unique way to "fix" that skill without stealing good parts from other demigods, though concepts (like Strut Trans) can be modified. 

---

Balance really needs to combined with various different things:

Demigods:

- Demigod skills, and knowing how the game proceeds as you level

- How much a demigod gains in their attributes on level up, and their initial level up

- General/Assassin 

 

Favor Items:

- Most favor items are simply too situational or inferior to Blood in average cases. Blood's power comes as mostly a "sum" and less of it being crazy good. 

   A) 800 cannot be purchased at the shop with a single item slot until late-game (Unbrekables + Banded achieved 1000 but costs two slots and 2k) 

   Monks, HP flag, and Sigil spam all benefit from Blood more than other items

   C) All generals must go Cloak, Ring of Divine Might, or Blood. Cloak provides an escape mechanism and mana for offensive skills to overcome the hp advantage someone else has. Ring encourages different builds. The most common case, Blood, occurs because

     i) I am laned against an Assassin. This assassin will probably be supported by a monk

     ii) Because he is monk supported and was able to purchase his first 1k on himself, he will have more mana and hp than me without even having to pick a favor item

    iii) I must go Blood to be able to compete or else I will fall behind in WS because I will be unable to hold flags and we will lag getting currency 

    iv) He knows I will probably go Blood, so he has blood as well to counter because he doesn't want to item iii to occur to himself. 

 

Items:

- Most items are either cost ineffective, or have useless benefits (Vinling helmet, Theugist cap). The cost of items also punishes the losing team because most of the 3k range items cost too much. 

 

Mechanics:

- Monks need to be reworked. I think that their natural damage needs to be reduced, or they should heal smaller amounts while "in combat" (taking damage from autoattack from minions, creeps or demigods adds an invisible debuff that expires in 2 seconds. If this debuff is active while you are healed, the amount you are healed is halved). This invites flavor and variety in the game, because a general who goes Banded + Scaled Helm might win a first engagement, but on second engagement, the person with the monk will be back at full hp and the other person won't be yet. 

- Locks should have a counter to them, even if it isn't cost-effective (though in some ways it is... if someone locks and then walks away, if you break the lost with a 500 gold item, they are forced to spend 250 porting on you to keep it). 

- Towers should scale slightly better (gain small hp and regen bonuses each war rank) 

 

Map:

Catracact:

   - The HP flag on Cataract needs to be replaced with a debilitating flag (which helps Regulus a ton, nerfs monks and sigils and blood) 

   - Mana flag needs to be replaced with a Mana-Per-Second flag because of how that flag is rotated

   - Gold flags need to be on the same side of the map (behind hp). 

Crucible:

   - Crucible needs to be more protected from backdoors

   - Gold flag shouldn't double your gps income

Prison:   

   - Prison is hard to balance because of the nature of the map... 

Exile: 

   - There are so many terrible things about this map I have a hard time coming up with them all...

Levi:

   - One of the most balanced maps, in terms of relative demigod strength (Regulus is very useful, for example). It does have other issues, however. 

Zikk: 

   - Also pretty balanced, though the front towers needs to be moved back slightly so that demolishers and Regulus can't shoot at them while protected by their own tower. 

   - However, the demigod disparity is pretty bad. Queen and Sedna are both extreme liabilities on this map because of the huge gold income which allows people to get very strong very fast and break through their supporting capabilities. 

 

Citadel Upgrades:

-  All of them provide diminishing returns at increased cost. Though it has to be balanced with alternate modes like High Towers or Fortress, a lot of the tower upgrades could be reworked. In general, I think that the cost should remain the same or only very slightly increase (or returns should diminish). Currency 3 is going to be less useful than 1 even if they provided the exact same benefits because the time spent after Cur 3 is much shorter than Cur 1. 

- XP could be improved slightly (15-30-45). It's worth getting in 4v4s and 5v5s when you share lanes but 3v3 and 2v2 it is very much debatable. 

- Catchup mechanisms could be built into the Citadel (eg, Death Penalty reduces the cost of ALL citadel upgrades by a small amount each time someone on your team dies). 

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June 6, 2010 6:58:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

re: Demigod 1.0 and Bramble Shield

I have a copy of the dgdata.zip from the CD release 1.0 version of Demigod. I've been using it to track the various changes that occurred in the patches. In the 1.0 version, Bramble Shield has a cooldown of 15. Either you've forgotten since it has been so long, you never played 1.0, or the version I have is a scam.

Disclaimer: I don't know which version the file is from, only that it was from the CD install. I've been calling it 1.0 for a lack of a better idea.

re:Sedna Armor

Consulting the charts I have, Sedna starts with the 3rd highest armor (UB tops the chart, then Oak, but Sedna is close to Oak). However her armor growth per level is subpar. At 20, she is clearly in the third group of base armor (along with TB and QoT, but better than Rook).

re: UB with Namoth & items as a ruler for heal regeneration

Is this really a fair way to evaluate Sedna's healing? It seems that the UB is the top of indvidual health regeneration. Furthmore much of Sedna's health regeneration is also AOE regen, unlike the UB.

re: Other list of balance items

That's a lot to consider. It seems reasonable.

 

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June 6, 2010 7:54:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The game released 1.02 IIRC. Bramble has not been buffed in retail versions of the game.

The balance changes have been:

- Nerf to Bite

- Removal of Horn of Battle (then put back in later)

- Reworking of some of the inconsequential Favor Items and also reduction in price for some of the items (Duelist)

- DF being slightly recoded

---

I wasn't saying that Healing Wind II is underpowered or anything. I think that Oak, Sedna and Rook are the three best balanced demigods. They each have their weakness, which is also their strength {Oak starts weak but ends strong, Sedna has high regen but poor damage and AoE, Rook can hold one place extremely well but can't move around the map well}. They have multiple useful skill trees, though also a few that could be improved or their scale could be improved (Soul Power II and III, for example).

Erebus has a plethora of useful skill trees and potential builds, but he doesn't have a "weakness" persay. He tends to be the second or third best at "everything", rather than the best at any one thing. Like Mario. Erebus could be taken back a few small notches for the sake of Regulus, TB, DA and Rook because the nature of his skills (appearing from nowhere and raping you while healing), but against UB, Sedna, and Oak he isn't this crazy powerhouse. I don't see him as particularly OP, just a little strong against weaker characters.

I was simply saying how a typical battle in a lane works against a monk-supported UB, versus the scenario you depicted. Sedna (and Rook) are really the only demigods who can hold back a UB (Occulus can do decently well because he can rape monks and cure spit from level 10-14 assuming Uberfix but once he gets Acclimation...) for a large portion of the game.

However, since the UB is usually mana-side and doesn't buy Currency, I end up losing most "equal" 1v1 fights since I am 1-3 levels behind and roughly 2000-2500 gold (kills, tower deaths {300} and flag caps {25}) behind. Later on, when levels are typically equal and 2k gold is a smaller portion of your game-investment, I can fight a UB out of a creep lane just fine.

---

Though I believe that a lot of Demigod is VERY balanced, if you want to make the gameplay more VARIED ... (multiple item and skill builds become balanced and there is a sense of urgency and adapting to counter other builds, as opposed to now there are usually 1-3 well-established builds that are proven the "best" in a wide variety of situations and any deviatition is usually swapping the order of a few key skills. Item builds are very very bland with 90% of builds sharing 3 or 4 different items throughout the course of the game (though the order you get them may be different). Unbreakable Boots is an item that can and should be used for every demigod and every build, regardless of who they are and what build they are. Even pure-minion builds should get it, though not prioritized.

... then we have to make more drastic changes, espiecially to game mechanics. If we simply just want to maintain the status quo (HP stacking ftw) then the changes can be very small and related to small +/-5% changes here and there.

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June 6, 2010 9:45:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The problem I am trying to avoid

2vs2 shield 2,3,4 is actually quite good.
3vs3 shield 2,3,4 becomes not good because of its weakness of not mitigating AA damage in a focus fire.

If we pump up the front loaded health, it becomes too strong in 2vs2 when you have say Oak, Rook or UB as your meat shield.
3on3 I would say shield's unmitigated "health" does not make as big of a difference as 1- the proportional weakness QoT brings to your late game 2- shield can be cracked in a 3on3 focus long before refresh and 3-closed form QoT can't really do much to contribute to winning a group battle, she must be open to do this.

Shield III debuff on allies, and Shield IV's 3 seconds immunity break the rythm of the skill timing game and the goal is to make things into a game of chicken as to when QoT can be open, or closed to debuff. 

The 3 seconds immunity also gives weak ass late game QoT a margin of error to escape the gank DGs.

Uproot

Range increase. Bad.
This is my mistake since I asked Ptarth to try this... the QoT tentacle rape bug makes this a really really bad thing to give QoT who buys boots. eg: On cataract she can chase you from the flag and kill you quite often because of the long ranged giving her a bigger buffer to run /attack + the AA bug where she hits you once every 1/2 second when you flee from her.

My stance is any AoE on uproot breaks rook balance. Even 10 per tick wreaks havoc on a creep waves and attached monk.

Violent Siege in this mod is pretty good. 225 / tick @ range 15 but mitigated by armor. Any remaining portal structures imperil your portal creeps and surrounding structures.  You also get big trouble defending your cit now. 

Ground Spike
This is where QoT gets her power from. Armor reduction is nice in DG combat From 4-10, and then again in artifact stage because of crits. It is completely awesome on structures. This is problematic because the game is decided usually from levels 12-15 where ground spike is not good again in DG combat. (armor goes up, and AA doesn't scale as well since AA skills are maxed, so improved AA only comes from items)

25% is too high in 3on3+, but any lower and it is no good in 2on2.

Suggestions?

 

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June 7, 2010 2:11:44 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

2vs2 shield 2,3,4 is actually quite good.

3vs3 shield 2,3,4 becomes not good because of its weakness of not mitigating AA damage in a focus fire.

Yes, in 2v2 conflicts shield and heal can actually be useful. In 3v3 pileups, it is not nearly as useful since dealing damage >>>>> healing in those engagements. This is a problem all defensive demigods have. If an Erebus Mists, it becomes a 3v2. If an Oak shields someone else, he becomes the new target. (before you guys bring those two up). 

Also, QoT's percieved weakness is not her inability to hold flags or push lanes (except against those with massive AoE) once Giants come out (she does flounder a lot in the WS 7-9 range). She is simply crippled because of her ineptitude in portal conflicts, which is what this game comes down to so often. She is not this "late-game" liability that you portray her, or we have different views of what lategame are. 

Ground Spikes makes demigods melt, especially in conjunction with Oak or Erebus. Shield is extremely strong early game. Queen does struggle in the mid-game but once giants are out and certainly early game she does just fine. Making Shield cheaper mana wise along with a re-working of her "useless" skills, along with a shift in game mechanics (portal rushes, sigil spam and chain locks) and itemization is more what Queen needs, rather than buffing her bread'n'butter skills. 

Queen already has several escape mechanisms when confronted with "gank" demigods. Mulch, Cloak of Night, Shield and Spike Wave. Also, with the exception of Erebus these "gank" teams all share their snares/ganking skills with their interrupt. Oak can either penitence and catch you or he can't. If he does, then you can port out, for example. If he doesn't you can just walk away. 

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June 7, 2010 9:26:44 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes, she is possibly the weak end of tier II DGs in the hands of a good player. I've said that many times because I've seen it and I also have about 200+ games with her before the reset so I would say I understand her strengths/weakesses. (the tourney is not a good indication of real QoT because it was 2on2)

Shield II/III/IV are bad skills in 3on3+ (90% of games)

The best builds do not take more then shield 1, they focus on her power, ground spikes + shamblers / mulch

eg: Best QoT at 11 consists of: 1 shield, 4 ground spike, 2 mulch, 3 shamblers, 1 wave 

Knowing that increasing shield power screws up 2on2
Knowing that QoT really starts to lose out in DG group combat ability after 10 (Spikes loses effectiveness, she has low AA, low life, is always slow, has to have preternatural awareness to decide what mode to be in [as in luck])
Knowing that shield II/III/IV are bad skills in 3on3+ games

What would you propose?

Debuff on shield is not insurmountable, infact I don't see it breaking the rythm at the start of a battle at all, becase QoT usually goes into battle in open mode to change the outcome.

3 second immunity is not a big deal except for killing her easily. She is already the easiest DG to kill late game because she needs 2 helms, and has the lowest life. She still cannot even come remotely close to 1vs1 real DGs after 11+. (this is why I say she has late game weakness) She meets a real DG, and she is usually running for her life.

Look at that happens with UB even with 3 seconds debuff immunity.

Spit (monk heal), shield debuff (that is also 1.5 seconds before she begins to AA), Ooze +AA, shield is down in 4 seconds, 3 more seconds, 1000 damage has penetrated her. Then spit, grasp, QoT now has a huge problem. She is not fighting, she is trying not to die. All her minions are dead (no mulch), she is down 2000 life and she has done maybe 500 damage to him.

I would say the 3 second immunity is in no way a game breaker, it is a deterrent to thinking she is a free meal in group combat., since focusing her only does damage, you can't debuff her and then kill her.

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