Demigod balance thread

By on May 30, 2010 6:35:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

magnus333

Join Date 05/2009
+1

Below is my opinion of mostly minor tweaks to balance the demigods and create diversity. 

I think this is a two step process.  Step 1 is adjusting talents (slight nerfs, buffs and revamps for totally useless stuff).  Step 2 is a complete revamp of itemization.  Despite some minor issues the demigods themselves are fairly balanced, I would say they are 90% of the way there.  Itemization however is more like 10%.

  • TB - Very balanced overall, if a little difficult to play or learn.  He has distinctly different play styles that can all be effective.  The only thing I would change on Tb is increasing the duration of Frost Nova 1 by up to half a second, or reducing cast time.  Most people aren't aware that level 1 doesn't actually help you escape because of the hidden animation cooldown.  
  • UB - Slightly OP and very bland, he really only has 1 good build. 
    • Only UB and LE have > 6.0 base speeds.  UB has both a slowing talent and a speed talent in addition.  He shouldn't have all 3 as passive abilities. I would probably just nerf the base speed to 6.0.  
    • Acclimation is effectively a passive buff late game.  An internal cool down of say 10s so it can only be up 50% of the time would alleviate that.
    • Grasp is just broken.  First, it can be canceled while retaining the stun.  Second, it's stupid to take more than 1 level of it.  Third, a 2s full stun at level 5 is extremely good.  I would remove the ability to cancel it, decrease the hp drained at rank 1 slightly but increase the hp drained at 2 and 3.  Lastly, scale the stun duration, maybe 0.5 at rank1, 1.0 at rank2 and 2.0 at rank 3.
  • Regulus - Close to balanced IMO, but extremely easy to play poorly, he's also noob bait which gives him more of a bad rep than he deserves imo.  He's close to having 2 distinct play styles (ability spam and AA) but one of them is ineffective due to current itemization.
    • His level 15 abilities all suck except mark.  If anything the random stun should be at the end of the AF tree since it's based on # of attacks and AF usually stacks haste. 
    • He has 2 activated slows (mines@10 and mark) and one passive slow while he has 0 speed increases or stuns.  I would just buff the passive slow to have a second ability (just like UB's slow) and end in an actually good talent (like UB's).    
  • Rook - This guy is almost the pinnacle of balance.  His greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. The only problem is that structural transfer after rank 1 is utterly worthless.  No dg should have a whole line of nearly completely worthless talents. 
  • DA - His ability spam build is very good, it costs a lot of mana but it's devastating so that's fine.  His problem is that he lacks diversity.  He has all the talents for a cool AA build (like reg) except that the devs forgot that melee characters will take a lot of damage vs ranged characters (like reg) and he has no way of mitigating that which kills AA (itemization kills it as well but I'm assuming itemization is fixed in my little theory land).  All of his AA abilities should have a passive life drain effect that stacks pretty heavily towards the end allowing him to be in melee range.  Right now, literally half his talents are practically worthless.
  • Oak - Ya, if there is every a demigod 2 the storyline clearly has oak winning the demigod 1 tournament and becoming a god.  Then he kills some other god(s) because he's bored and now there is a new tournament, hence Demigod 2.  He has good diversity of builds.
    • Shield 3 should be 5s, not 6.  Being able to shield lock AND tp with immunity is stupid.  Maybe at level 4 shield.
    • Last stand, while fun, is counter-productive.  That's ok though, it helps noobs learn.
  • QoT - Easily the most underpowered DG of the bunch.  She has way too many minion talents to allow for an effective minion build, and her ability build is way too mana intensive, even with hungarling's.  The real problem is that she's easily the most micro management intensive dg, which would be great if we were all Korean, but we are not.
    • Mulch shouldn't require a target.  Auto kill the lowest health one plz.  Also I would make it instant.
    • Shield and mulch should have no animation cooldown interrupting movement
    • The entire uproot tree is worthless, even level 1 can't be situationally good (like rook's structural transfer)
    • One of the minion trees (compost or entourage) should become a passive or aura of some kind.
    • Tribute is a cool idea, but it's essentially worthless for how late in a game it comes.  I would give each rank of entourage a mini-tribute, with the final rank applying to the entire team.  
    • TB can be effective as either fire or ice, without having to constantly change forms.  QoT should be similar in having a minion form and an ability form.  Pro people can come up with a super micro hybrid build on their own but the two best abilities (shield and ground spikes) shouldn't immediately force most players into a 5s stance-dance the rest of the game.
    • Even after all this QoT would need to be reviewed.  So much would change...
  • Sedna - Sedna is pretty good as-is.  She has so many good talents that her diversity comes in which ones she gets in what order.  The problem is, she's a general and has literally the worst minion build of all generals which limits her diversity to just an ability build.  QoT's has 4 talent lines devoted to minions (5 if we include moral), Sedna has 1 with a small minion passive tacked onto a really good passive ability line (again, not including moral). 
    • Yeti's need to do something really cool besides do meaningless amount of damage and then die.  Something cooler than say, exploding for a lot of damage but only after 5 talents points have been invested in them.
  • Erebus - Despite having only 2 small minion talent lines he has a pretty decent minion build.  His ability builds are great. A little too great some might argue.  I think he's pretty close to balanced.  Like UB he has a base speed increase, a slow and a movement increase, but unlike UB his slow and movement increase (swarm) are both activated on cooldowns with significant cost.  I think he's fairly balanced as-is.
    • I would delay mist removing all debuffs till a later rank, it's a bit too powerful at level 1.  
  • Oculus - Ah my favorite DG.  Right now 4 of his 7 talent lines are bugged.  He has no diversity at all and only 1 good build.  He'd have the worst minion build of all if it wasn't for the fact that after 5 points his minions become really good by virtue of how much they suck (dying fast).  Before that they are nothing special AND they come with the drawback of 'expiring' early unlike shamblers or yetis.  Oak and Erebus have 'free' minions that have proven to be useful enough to justify them sometimes.  All of the activated minions (shamblers, yetis, balls) are never seen, unless the player is a total noob.  All of them need something cooler to justify their cost, especially oc's balls since they have a drawback.
    • I would give the balls a base explosion when they die, that scales up per rank.  Maybe 50, 100, 150, 200 per ball per rank.  Then they jump to 400 at 15 and have one other cool small effect, maybe their zaps start to chain, or the explosion stops enemy movement (not a stun or interrupt, just a movement impair of which this game has 0).  Actually I would give them a mini chain lighting at 15 and give the yetis a movement impair at 15.  Shamblers already explode and heal a ton on an activated ability.
    • It's obvious that sacrifice was modeled after acclimation, yet sacrifice sucks.  Maybe if after being hit for 500 damage ALL damage done to oc for 5s healed allies for 40% it might be worth the points.  Including minions (except balls because that would be counter intuitive).

 

That's it.  Mostly minor stuff here and there, except QoT.  I'd really like to see every dg have at least 2 viable builds.  To that end, itemization would need to be completely overhauled.  It would be nice if all items had a little health and mana and than they varied based on utility from that point.  It would be nice if there were more than 2 items that increased movement speed, or lowered cooldowns, or increased crit rate, or gave a lifesteal effect. 

If all 5 slots could be filled with items that each gave some hp/mana but say, DA could grab several items that increased lifesteal,  crit and avoidance we could see more AA builds.  Same with reg, only he would want speed, faster attacks and crit.  If they could do that without totally gimping hp/mana because they didn't buy the 3 hp/mana items everyone else does it would certainly increase diversity.  Being able to build on a SoR build rook with further cooldown decrease items and armor/avoidance would be fun.

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June 2, 2010 2:43:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not saying change, I'm saying Add.

TB's issue is survivability in some situations and it would help.

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June 2, 2010 2:47:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thundercles,


Frost Nova I is actually pretty good as long as you're not some poor noob using it right in the middle of a 1v1.

"Okay... you just frosted me and you're not running and I'm not running... and you kinda stunned yourself longer than me so..."

I learned this the hard way.

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June 2, 2010 2:49:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Okey if we are talking realistic balance changes that would require little to no coding I would

  • Buff the base speed of Reg and DA to 6.3
  • Increase the base mana pool of TB and QoT by 500

The rest of the cast I would not touch.

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June 2, 2010 2:51:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The point of using the Frost Nova in 1v1 is with Wand of Speed. Frost Nova also debuffs movement speed by -10% for 5 seconds. Gives you a 35% bonus instead of just 25%

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June 2, 2010 3:37:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_ZEX,
Okey if we are talking realistic balance changes that would require little to no coding I would


Buff the base speed of Reg and DA to 6.3
Increase the base mana pool of TB and QoT by 500

The rest of the cast I would not touch.

 

You have a deal if we can put UB and LE at 6.0

They both have stuns, speed debuffs, UB has a passive speed increase, LE has a blink... they don't need to be quicker than anyone anyway.

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June 2, 2010 3:53:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

what? eh... wait... eh... what? actually then da should be ok as well... and tb can also do massive damage in a short period of time. but they both suck endgame against a beast or oak.

dont understand me wrong. occ is good but not lategame.

Well they are not as good, that was my whole point. Without an interrupt they are a liability, because if they are the only one available to tp in to save a portal (say your Queen's teammates just tp-ed in to try and get a gank with her, and then the opponent makes a push for a portal while everyone else is still on cooldown) they can't do anything about it. Teams where all three Dgs have an interrupt are simply better than teams that don't.

And Zex is right- The other major balancing issue (or at least the easiest to fix) is QoT mana pool. As a "caster" class, her mana pool vs. her mana costs are absurd. UB has more mana than her at level 1. UB. What were they thinking?

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June 2, 2010 6:37:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thundercles,



Quoting OMG_ZEX,
reply 28
Okey if we are talking realistic balance changes that would require little to no coding I would


Buff the base speed of Reg and DA to 6.3
Increase the base mana pool of TB and QoT by 500

The rest of the cast I would not touch.


 

You have a deal if we can put UB and LE at 6.0

They both have stuns, speed debuffs, UB has a passive speed increase, LE has a blink... they don't need to be quicker than anyone anyway.

Ill agree with you on LE because he can just Batswarm out but UB really has no escape options. He is always commited to the fight unless he can get a shield from an oak and TP out. IMO ub needs the 6.3 base so he can have an easier time running from fights.

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June 2, 2010 6:39:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

He can increase his speed with skills. LE can't.

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June 2, 2010 9:11:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

From what does a UB escape? He has high base speed, a debuff that lowers his opponents speed, and a passive buff that increases his speed. He really doesn't deserve all the speed considering he has good health and armor and mana pool and abilities to compensate for low speed.

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June 2, 2010 11:00:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

UB can't escape ganks as well as other DGs. He doesn't have a group stun or group slow, blink, shield, silence, or heals. But really, it doesn't matter if his base speed is 6.0 or 6.3, it makes no difference.

Wow, I'm actually on the same page as cow for once.

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June 2, 2010 11:27:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm on-board for removing beast entirely. Just sayin.

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June 2, 2010 11:29:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

^But he's so cute.

I would love for someone to remodel TB's look. I can probably ask Obi to design a way cooler TB.

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June 3, 2010 11:49:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thundercles,

Quoting OMG_ZEX, reply 28Okey if we are talking realistic balance changes that would require little to no coding I would


Buff the base speed of Reg and DA to 6.3
Increase the base mana pool of TB and QoT by 500

The rest of the cast I would not touch.
 

You have a deal if we can put UB and LE at 6.0

They both have stuns, speed debuffs, UB has a passive speed increase, LE has a blink... they don't need to be quicker than anyone anyway.
increase either queens speed, or her armor, mana, and hp base pool because she has none of the above. Except for a speed debuff which kinda becomes irrelevant do to how slow she is, and all the other speed  buffs and teleports.

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June 3, 2010 3:19:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

[quote who="OMG_Teseer" reply="36" id="2637042"]I'm on-board for removing beast entirely. Just sayin.[/quote

 

I can't believe im saying this but me too.

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June 3, 2010 3:20:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Huttah! I'm thinking that every game I host from now on will deny the ability to pick Beast. 

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June 3, 2010 3:54:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Teseer,
Huttah! I'm thinking that every game I host from now on will deny the ability to pick Beast. 
im picking beast

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June 3, 2010 3:59:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Kick.

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June 3, 2010 4:03:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Teseer,
Kick.
sorry i got an antikick bot installed.

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June 3, 2010 4:47:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting synnworld,

Quoting OMG_Teseer, reply 42Kick. sorry i got an antikick bot installed.

He could just move around quickly and open and close slots to make you crash

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June 3, 2010 5:10:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with cow, realistic balance changes should be kept as subtle as possible, so i'd be happy with just:

- Frost Nova Cast Time reduction and faster Ice-to-Fire mode change.

- Regulus and Demon Assassin base speed up to 6.3.

- Random QoT buff that makes her go Out-of-Mana less frequently (god is she mana intensive ).

I won't agree with a Lord Erebus Base Speed reduction, he already has problems chasing targets after bites, and he's actually "kinda squishy" (lowest base armor of all demigods), he relies on awesome HP regeneration skills, without his speedy movement he would get kited to death by ranged chars, and ub would eat him alive. What i'd actually nerf is Bite HP gain (most omgwtfbbq OP skill), that's what makes him unkillable along mist-batswarm.

I'd only agree with an UB speed reduction to 6.0 if Inner Beast Movement Speed Increase got a buff: if it gave 5/10/15% movement speed increase by Inner Beast rank i'm fine with a UB base speed of 6.0.

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June 3, 2010 5:18:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Lowest armor is Rook, but I do agree that LE should keep 6.3. 

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June 3, 2010 5:39:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well i meant base armor at lvl1, 220 Erebus against 240 for Rook, but yeah Lord Erebus armor grows much faster than Rook's, by lvl3 he's already ahead of Rook in base armor.

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June 3, 2010 8:07:15 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

if you think Erebus has a hard time chasing with bite, try playing Sedna. The only way you can use Pounce is if you are super-duper fast or you have Cloak of Night so you can pounce-cloak in front of them-AA-pounce for the kill. 

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June 4, 2010 2:50:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quick thought without reading this thread (I'm sure there are good bits in it, I just haven't had a chance to read it yet) - please consider this.  RIGHT NOW, we have a good chance to effect some change in Demigod.  GPG indicated that they would release a series of free patches.  The first patch is essentially bugfixes and a little balancing.  On the last patch or so, I remember a change being implemented PRECISELY because of community feedback (increase of lock time of locks).  If, say, we all agreed on a couple of minor changes and pushed them, I'd bet SD would back us and we would probably see those changes added to the game.  If we have a huge list of things people disagree about, then we probably will see nothing.  So, the question is, name 1-5 changes that we all agree on (ignore bugfixes, just talk balance changes).  If we all agree, then I'd bet brad and SD would back us up and we might see a change in the next 3-6 months. 

Brad is our best weapon in DG and I don't think he plays DG anymore.  We'll get some bugfixes, but we really do need to get united if we want to see some core fixes to the game.  I'm really sure he has no issue with telling someone on his staff to send a request to GPG to fix XXXXXXX or change XXXXXXX based on our feedback... but he's smart enough not to waste his time if XXXXX is idiotic based on his experience... but if if all agree that XXXXX is a good idea, then...

Anyway - all of that said, hopefully you balance changes can be universally agreed upon and then submitted to gpg.

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June 4, 2010 8:53:56 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

This is what I would do to make all of the characters even.

Erubus
Give mist a higher start-up cost. Make mist take increasing amounts of mana so Erebus can't just wait you out when he's almost dead.

Unclean Beast
Make acclimation boost attack speed as previously suggested

Oak
Shield III blocks stuns, but not interrupts
Shield IV will block both
Increase the cooldown on shield

QoT
Shield III and Shield IV should have the damage absorption increases
QoT's base mana pool should increase
Entourage should give a greater boost

DA
Warp Area should be an small range area of effect spell dealing twice his auto attack damage to everything in range
DA's move speed should be slightly increased

Regulus
Splash damage from Angelic Fury should be a higher %
Angelic fury should provide a movement speed buff
Snipe should prevent minion and creep heals for 5 seconds on the target.

Torchbearer
TB's base armor and health should be slightly increased
Circle of flame IV should do more damage

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