Demigod balance thread

By on May 30, 2010 6:35:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

magnus333

Join Date 05/2009
+1

Below is my opinion of mostly minor tweaks to balance the demigods and create diversity. 

I think this is a two step process.  Step 1 is adjusting talents (slight nerfs, buffs and revamps for totally useless stuff).  Step 2 is a complete revamp of itemization.  Despite some minor issues the demigods themselves are fairly balanced, I would say they are 90% of the way there.  Itemization however is more like 10%.

  • TB - Very balanced overall, if a little difficult to play or learn.  He has distinctly different play styles that can all be effective.  The only thing I would change on Tb is increasing the duration of Frost Nova 1 by up to half a second, or reducing cast time.  Most people aren't aware that level 1 doesn't actually help you escape because of the hidden animation cooldown.  
  • UB - Slightly OP and very bland, he really only has 1 good build. 
    • Only UB and LE have > 6.0 base speeds.  UB has both a slowing talent and a speed talent in addition.  He shouldn't have all 3 as passive abilities. I would probably just nerf the base speed to 6.0.  
    • Acclimation is effectively a passive buff late game.  An internal cool down of say 10s so it can only be up 50% of the time would alleviate that.
    • Grasp is just broken.  First, it can be canceled while retaining the stun.  Second, it's stupid to take more than 1 level of it.  Third, a 2s full stun at level 5 is extremely good.  I would remove the ability to cancel it, decrease the hp drained at rank 1 slightly but increase the hp drained at 2 and 3.  Lastly, scale the stun duration, maybe 0.5 at rank1, 1.0 at rank2 and 2.0 at rank 3.
  • Regulus - Close to balanced IMO, but extremely easy to play poorly, he's also noob bait which gives him more of a bad rep than he deserves imo.  He's close to having 2 distinct play styles (ability spam and AA) but one of them is ineffective due to current itemization.
    • His level 15 abilities all suck except mark.  If anything the random stun should be at the end of the AF tree since it's based on # of attacks and AF usually stacks haste. 
    • He has 2 activated slows (mines@10 and mark) and one passive slow while he has 0 speed increases or stuns.  I would just buff the passive slow to have a second ability (just like UB's slow) and end in an actually good talent (like UB's).    
  • Rook - This guy is almost the pinnacle of balance.  His greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. The only problem is that structural transfer after rank 1 is utterly worthless.  No dg should have a whole line of nearly completely worthless talents. 
  • DA - His ability spam build is very good, it costs a lot of mana but it's devastating so that's fine.  His problem is that he lacks diversity.  He has all the talents for a cool AA build (like reg) except that the devs forgot that melee characters will take a lot of damage vs ranged characters (like reg) and he has no way of mitigating that which kills AA (itemization kills it as well but I'm assuming itemization is fixed in my little theory land).  All of his AA abilities should have a passive life drain effect that stacks pretty heavily towards the end allowing him to be in melee range.  Right now, literally half his talents are practically worthless.
  • Oak - Ya, if there is every a demigod 2 the storyline clearly has oak winning the demigod 1 tournament and becoming a god.  Then he kills some other god(s) because he's bored and now there is a new tournament, hence Demigod 2.  He has good diversity of builds.
    • Shield 3 should be 5s, not 6.  Being able to shield lock AND tp with immunity is stupid.  Maybe at level 4 shield.
    • Last stand, while fun, is counter-productive.  That's ok though, it helps noobs learn.
  • QoT - Easily the most underpowered DG of the bunch.  She has way too many minion talents to allow for an effective minion build, and her ability build is way too mana intensive, even with hungarling's.  The real problem is that she's easily the most micro management intensive dg, which would be great if we were all Korean, but we are not.
    • Mulch shouldn't require a target.  Auto kill the lowest health one plz.  Also I would make it instant.
    • Shield and mulch should have no animation cooldown interrupting movement
    • The entire uproot tree is worthless, even level 1 can't be situationally good (like rook's structural transfer)
    • One of the minion trees (compost or entourage) should become a passive or aura of some kind.
    • Tribute is a cool idea, but it's essentially worthless for how late in a game it comes.  I would give each rank of entourage a mini-tribute, with the final rank applying to the entire team.  
    • TB can be effective as either fire or ice, without having to constantly change forms.  QoT should be similar in having a minion form and an ability form.  Pro people can come up with a super micro hybrid build on their own but the two best abilities (shield and ground spikes) shouldn't immediately force most players into a 5s stance-dance the rest of the game.
    • Even after all this QoT would need to be reviewed.  So much would change...
  • Sedna - Sedna is pretty good as-is.  She has so many good talents that her diversity comes in which ones she gets in what order.  The problem is, she's a general and has literally the worst minion build of all generals which limits her diversity to just an ability build.  QoT's has 4 talent lines devoted to minions (5 if we include moral), Sedna has 1 with a small minion passive tacked onto a really good passive ability line (again, not including moral). 
    • Yeti's need to do something really cool besides do meaningless amount of damage and then die.  Something cooler than say, exploding for a lot of damage but only after 5 talents points have been invested in them.
  • Erebus - Despite having only 2 small minion talent lines he has a pretty decent minion build.  His ability builds are great. A little too great some might argue.  I think he's pretty close to balanced.  Like UB he has a base speed increase, a slow and a movement increase, but unlike UB his slow and movement increase (swarm) are both activated on cooldowns with significant cost.  I think he's fairly balanced as-is.
    • I would delay mist removing all debuffs till a later rank, it's a bit too powerful at level 1.  
  • Oculus - Ah my favorite DG.  Right now 4 of his 7 talent lines are bugged.  He has no diversity at all and only 1 good build.  He'd have the worst minion build of all if it wasn't for the fact that after 5 points his minions become really good by virtue of how much they suck (dying fast).  Before that they are nothing special AND they come with the drawback of 'expiring' early unlike shamblers or yetis.  Oak and Erebus have 'free' minions that have proven to be useful enough to justify them sometimes.  All of the activated minions (shamblers, yetis, balls) are never seen, unless the player is a total noob.  All of them need something cooler to justify their cost, especially oc's balls since they have a drawback.
    • I would give the balls a base explosion when they die, that scales up per rank.  Maybe 50, 100, 150, 200 per ball per rank.  Then they jump to 400 at 15 and have one other cool small effect, maybe their zaps start to chain, or the explosion stops enemy movement (not a stun or interrupt, just a movement impair of which this game has 0).  Actually I would give them a mini chain lighting at 15 and give the yetis a movement impair at 15.  Shamblers already explode and heal a ton on an activated ability.
    • It's obvious that sacrifice was modeled after acclimation, yet sacrifice sucks.  Maybe if after being hit for 500 damage ALL damage done to oc for 5s healed allies for 40% it might be worth the points.  Including minions (except balls because that would be counter intuitive).

 

That's it.  Mostly minor stuff here and there, except QoT.  I'd really like to see every dg have at least 2 viable builds.  To that end, itemization would need to be completely overhauled.  It would be nice if all items had a little health and mana and than they varied based on utility from that point.  It would be nice if there were more than 2 items that increased movement speed, or lowered cooldowns, or increased crit rate, or gave a lifesteal effect. 

If all 5 slots could be filled with items that each gave some hp/mana but say, DA could grab several items that increased lifesteal,  crit and avoidance we could see more AA builds.  Same with reg, only he would want speed, faster attacks and crit.  If they could do that without totally gimping hp/mana because they didn't buy the 3 hp/mana items everyone else does it would certainly increase diversity.  Being able to build on a SoR build rook with further cooldown decrease items and armor/avoidance would be fun.

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May 30, 2010 7:52:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

lol at the last sentence

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May 30, 2010 8:00:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hey i was thinking on making some suggestions too, soo here i go, for now for Torch Bearer:

- Frost Nova needs a buff badly , compared to Mass Charm it is a bad joke. It's 0.9 secs cast time is too easily interruptable, needs a reduction to 0.5 secs at max, it's ridiculous it takes as much time to cast it as it stuns enemy demigods. It should also make frozen units take a % more damage, let's say 15% more while they're frozen for FN I, so Raining Ice over frozen units would add up for example. This would make ice builds much more viable.

- Deep freeze IV should last 8 seconds, i don't get why it stops increasing after lvl3.

- Make Ice-to-Fire form change as fast as Fire-to-Ice, doable on-the-move maybe too. This would help hybrid builds tremendously. Right now, main problem for Torch Bearer is late game, when there's lotsa close quarters combat to save-cap portal flags, torch pretty much has to stay on ice form after tossing the initial fireball, he can`t afford the whole second lost changing back to fire while enemy demigods keep pounding at him.

I might go on later for other demigods.

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May 30, 2010 8:01:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Boxxy_Mithrandar,
lol at the last sentence

That was pretty much my thoughts as well. If he wants to waste his time posting up stuff so I don't get to respond to it, all the more power to him. 

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May 30, 2010 8:02:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

double post for the lose

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May 30, 2010 8:11:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Magnus what gives you the all-mighty brain power to talk about something so clearly over the entire communities head.  I have not seen you play a single good game in the 10 times i've played with you still very clueless as to how you were ranked tier 1.

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May 30, 2010 8:16:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

My point wasn't to tell other people to post, just to warn people that I won't reply much.  I give this thread about 3 more hours before it devolves into a UB IS OP frenzy.

I know nothing in this thread will ever come into existence, but I enjoy thinking about it.  It took me about as long as 1 game of demigod to think/post it and sadly, it was actually much more fun than 90% of my recent games have been.

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May 30, 2010 8:31:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
  1. Sacrifice is currently nonfunctional the code doesn't actually have the desired effect. No healing occurs.
  2. You can create the mod and make the changes yourself.
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May 31, 2010 12:25:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Actually, if you don't want people to point out their opinions about balance, why would you put this thread in generals (where everyone might read it) when there is an "idea" section to put this kind of thread?

 

Is this a long thread to point out ONE AND ONLY ONE THING? That everyone are idiots???

Tell me I'm right!

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May 31, 2010 12:30:18 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I say: Change UB stun to

Lv05 drains, no stun.

Lv10, drains, stun 2 sec.

Lv15 drains, stun 2 sec and if it survive, slow 20% for 5 sec.

 

Acclimation should just be a faster attack speed when under X% HP. For those frenzy UB.

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May 31, 2010 12:35:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

^Are you from Quebec?

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May 31, 2010 1:13:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_NinkiCZ,
^Are you from Quebec?

eh?

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May 31, 2010 3:26:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_pacov,

eh?

I'm just curious.

Oh magnus, I just read your post and I think you should write a book. Not a book about Demigod, but an actual book.

 

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June 2, 2010 8:54:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,

All of the activated minions (shamblers, yetis, balls) are never seen, unless the player is a total noob. 

So am I suppose to be insulted that you think everyone who uses a shambler build is a noob? So who are you to say who is noob and who isn't again?

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June 2, 2010 9:18:11 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Shamblers actually do pretty good damage and are instant health pots. They worry me a bit when I'm fighting someone with AoE though

Entourage needs a good buff so that shamblers can live long enough late game to become health potions.

Shield IV also needs a decent buff for all the mana it consumes to be equal to the other lvl 10 skills

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June 2, 2010 9:23:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Splitshadow,
Shamblers actually do pretty good damage and are instant health pots. They worry me a bit when I'm fighting someone with AoE though

Entourage needs a good buff so that shamblers can live long enough late game to become health potions.

Shield IV also needs a decent buff for all the mana it consumes to be equal to the other lvl 10 skills
both shield 3 -4 need a buff and 1 - 4 needs mana reduction

 

I said it once I'll say it again

 

Entourage tree should turn shamblers into mini tnks boosting ther hp, damage, and defense

 

Compost should turn them into mini attack guns boosting their attacvk speed, and movement speed, and making you able to summon more the just four.

 

If you go down one line then you should be locked out of the other, or going down both should crate some kind of hybrid super shambler turning all 4 into one mega summon.

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June 2, 2010 10:00:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

shamblers are seen from people who actually play qot (like nobody).  I never really knew the value of mulch until the tourney tho.. 

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June 2, 2010 10:25:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's been said a million times, but I'll say it again:

All Dgs need an interrupt. Ones who don't have one are inherenty less playable than those who do. Especially on Cataract.

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June 2, 2010 10:40:57 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting BadDaddy8,
It's been said a million times, but I'll say it again:

All Dgs need an interrupt. Ones who don't have one are inherenty less playable than those who do. Especially on Cataract.

That's not exactly true. You can give them something to compensate for the lack of interrupt AS LONG AS IT ACTUALLY COMPENSATES.

QoT doesn't have an interrupt, and that's fine because she's pretty strong early in the game because shield can keep her alive long enough to push back attackers. Her lack of interrupt combined with the weakness of shield and shamblers at rank IV make her too mana dependant to have the health and DPS to really contribute in fights.

Many of the Demigods that are weak just need a late game buff.

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June 2, 2010 11:15:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting RAWRRRR,
shamblers are seen from people who actually play qot (like nobody).  I never really knew the value of mulch until the tourney tho.. 

Rephrase what is in bold!

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June 2, 2010 11:28:33 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That's not exactly true. You can give them something to compensate for the lack of interrupt AS LONG AS IT ACTUALLY COMPENSATES.

Well maybe, but I don't really see anything out there that CAN compensate for not having any ability to stop a tp or a lock, especially when a few Dgs (TB, LE and Sed) each have a stun AND an interrupt.

The only one who does okay without one is Occ, because late game, when interrupts really start to matter, he can often kill you in that 2 seconds it takes to tp or lock.

Queen is strong early, and Reg can be, but when it comes to the portal game, they can do very little on their own, except keep your own portals locked. But your team is at a huge disadvantage if one of your Dgs can't properly protect a portal, and all three of theirs can.

It's not a coincidence that the top 5 demigods (Oak, LE, UB, Rook and Sed) all have great stuns/ interrupts. It is not the only thing that makes them powerful, but it is a prerequisite.

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June 2, 2010 11:48:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting BadDaddy8,


It's not a coincidence that the top 5 demigods (Oak, LE, UB, Rook and Sed) all have great stuns/ interrupts. It is not the only thing that makes them powerful, but it is a prerequisite.

You want to know whats amazing, out of the top five 3 work together to make the holy fucking trinity demigod team that 3/4 of this game just love using to death. one of the top five is easily the most overpowered, another  is easily the most versatile in life and death situations, and I can just go on and on til we get down to oc and queen.

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June 2, 2010 1:27:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Of every idea I've seen mod wise, the TB Balance Mod was my favorite. Well, at least part of it:

Switch to Frost Form Buff: Give armor depending on level.

Switch to Fire Form Buff: Give hp/s. 

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June 2, 2010 2:09:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting BadDaddy8,

The only one who does okay without one is Occ, because late game, when interrupts really start to matter, he can often kill you in that 2 seconds it takes to tp or lock.

what? eh... wait... eh... what? actually then da should be ok as well... and tb can also do massive damage in a short period of time. but they both suck endgame against a beast or oak.

dont understand me wrong. occ is good but not lategame.

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June 2, 2010 2:15:40 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

At level 15 he has nuclear balls that blow up for massive damage and a few instant nukes.

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June 2, 2010 2:18:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Teseer,
Of every idea I've seen mod wise, the TB Balance Mod was my favorite. Well, at least part of it:

Switch to Frost Form Buff: Give armor depending on level.

Switch to Fire Form Buff: Give hp/s. 

No need to mess with a good thing...  He's right that TB is very balanced (assuming as certain dirty dog gets nerfed someday) and just cause we play with BotS doesn't mean that the form switch buffs aren't great for other TB builds.

Frost Nova I is actually pretty good as long as you're not some poor noob using it right in the middle of a 1v1.

"Okay... you just frosted me and you're not running and I'm not running... and you kinda stunned yourself longer than me so..."

Its still great for saving allies from chasers and for finishing a kill under enemy towers... great utility spell, just not a great stun until you get two more points in it.

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