Teseer's TB Build: Finding Salvation Through Immolation.

By on December 26, 2009 3:03:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Teseer

Join Date 02/2008
+60


Disclaimer:
This is just my personal Build.

I understand plenty of people use other builds and they very well might be fantastic.

This is just how I like playing TB.


That being said, I welcome any comments

General Build:

Favor: 
Blade of the Serpent

Starting Items:
Banded Armor/Universal Gadget (My most often used)
Banded Armor/2 Combat Health Potions (For sure against a Reg)
Banded Armor/1 Combat Health Potion/1 Scroll of Teleporting (For an early gank/save) 

Skill Tree:
Level 1: Fireball I
Level 2: Rain of Ice I
Level 3: Save
Level 4: Fireball II and Rain of Ice II
Level 5: Deep Freeze I
Level 6: Save
Level 7: Fireball III and Rain of Ice III
Level 8: Frost Nova I
Level 9: Save
Level 10: Fireball IV and Rain of Ice IV
Level 11: Frost Nova II
Level 12: Deep Freeze II
Level 13: Deep Freeze III
Level 14: Deep Freeze IV
Level 15: Fire and Ice
Level 16: Biting Chill
Level 17: Frost Nova III
Level 18: Fire Aura/Fire Nova
Level 19: Fire Aura/Fire Nova
Level 20: Fire Aura/Fire Nova



Gear:
1 - Unbreakable Boots
2 - Nimoth Chestplate
3 - Wand of Speed
4 - Hauberk of Life
5 - Vlemish/Battlecrown, depending on playstyle.

In a game against large burst, I recommend the Orb of Defiance. 

If a game goes on long enough, swap Banded Armor for Journeyman's Boots. Same health, +15% speed and a you-can't-catch-me proc.

Universal Gadgets are almost always in my inventory. Use em to save your team-mate, save a tower, save yourself, or kill someone. No other item is that versatile.

Do not get sigils. 


Abilities:

Fireball:
-This is your bread and butter spell. You need to cast this as much as possible. 

-Towers (Even if the defending demigod moved just a little outside range). You can and will rack up a LOT of damage if you are on the ball.

-General Monks *

-You need to be very careful around Unclean Beast with Fireball, as he can get in range to spit during Fireball's cast. Back off and after a few times you will get a feel for when someone's retreat point is reached (Each player is different.) Target fireball the SECOND he turns around. It will hit him on his ass on his way out while hes out of range for spit.

-This spell casts VERY slow and is VERY obvious. You need to be careful around: 
Oak - Frost Torch Bearer - Lord Erebus 
What you need to do is fake cast and cancel before the cast is half way (or VERY close to finished for LE.) and when they interrupt you, recast.

-When you activate BotS, Fireball II and on will net a gain, so after you use BotS, Fireball SOMETHING so it's 'free' and you gain mana.

-When people are running, look for corners, if you run to a corner you can sometimes get in range for a last Fireball. Do this as often as possible. Make SURE you send them back with that last fireball.

Rain of Ice:
-This spell is increadible. It's your spell for Mana, Experiance and Damage.

-Be Tactful about it's use. Wait for a wave of creeps to be included if the spell can wait a few seconds.

-Avoid using this as a single target spell as often as possible.

-Try to include as many targets as possible in the AoE.

-When alone in a lane, ensure you RoI so the AoE hits the grunts AND the tower. When alone at a lane, use FB as soon as the cooldown is up multiple times until you see the creep wave, hit BotS, drop RoI and Fireball the tower again. The efficiency is fantastic. You can usually drop 2 fireballs between the creep waves and 2 fireballs and a RoI should hurt your mana, so the BotS fills you back so you're ready to drop more fireballs (and the first will give you more mana back due to BotS. If you do this every other creep wave, you won't ever have to stop casting. Obviously you won't be just by yourself at a tower often, but look for chances. If they leave you alone, punish that tower.

-Try to keep at least half of the mana needed for a RoI. Makes it MUCH easier to keep topped off on mana with BotS.

-The range on this spell is obscene. If someone is running and you can still see them, chances are you can RoI them.

-The attack speed debuff is often overlooked. TB hits like a truck WITHOUT gear (other then BotS) so you can AA someone down if needed. The Attack Speed debuff is great for helping you get that edge so RoI right before you both AA.

-Biting Chill is an amazing addition to RoI (if the game gets this far). It is GREAT for shatters, but sometimes the 75% reduction is FAR more benefitial. RoI at range and it will help a LOT with attrition as HP/MP regen slows to a crawl.

Deep Freeze:
-I've been using this spell wrong. Thanks to Pacov for explaining how it works NOW.
http://forums.demigodthegame.com/372375

-Deep Freeze is another AMAZING spell. It's a great interrupt, but it also has it's amazing cooldown effect. Much like Mark of the Betrayer, if an ability is used while the Deep Freeze debuff is active, it's NEXT cooldown is increased by whatever lvl Deep Freeze
you have. 

-This is your best friend against Unclean Beast. It is rather difficult, but you can interrupt Spit. Let him chase you to spit (and you know hes going to, it's all that bastard does) and when hes JUST outside of Deep Freeze Range, target it. In the time it takes you to turn and line up Deep Freeze, his spit will go off and you're .1 second cast finishes before his .3 cast. And theres NOTHING on this earth that's more enjoyable for me then to watch an UB choke on his own vomit.)

-At 13, you start doing respectable dmg with a double shatter (650) but skyrockets at 15. (1,275).

-Obviously, this is a spell that will help greatly with portal locks. Watch for the fucker to fiddle with an item and hit him asap. Some people are very good with Deeking interrupts so if you see someone starting and stopping a case, just wait and have DF targeted over them and wait for the next time they start the effect. The second you see then stop moving from a fake cast, hit em with DF. 

Frost Nova:
-Of the novas you get to select with this build, this is the one I select 90% of the time. You can only get one level of the nova you select until level 16 and I feel that the Stun, even if for a short while, is better then 400 damage.

-Don't forget that level 1 Frost Nova, while it only stuns Demigods for 1 second, stuns stuns buildings for 6. This includes Rook's Towers. Look for times to run past two towers to finish someone if they are relying on them for protection.

-Watch for allies going past towers for a kill. Freeze it on the way out for them.

-Seeing as everyone plays Cat, this works great to get by and cap a flag without needing to take out the towers as you can simply run by. Remember you still need to get out if you don't have a scroll.

*(Extreamly important. Generals who dont micro will leave their minions back for a few seconds when they retreat. Take advantage and autoattack them a few times and if needed, finish with a fireball. You are in a mana war and you have unlimited {to a point}, they do not. Make them cast monks over and over.)

 


 

General Torch Bearer:

Tips:
-With this build, try to start most fights in Fire mode. Switching from Fire to Ice is much faster and simpler then from Ice to Fire. Get your fireball off and swap.

-Swap often. Capping a flag? Swap back and forth. +75 weapon dmg and +50% mana regen is really nice.


-Patience. You will need a LOT of this with TB. You wont be able to just run in and muscle someone out of a lane. It takes tact and time. You need to chip away at them until you are sure you have the upper hand.
You will need to Wait ALL the time. Wait for BotS to be off cooldown, wait for grunts to arrive for the next RoI, wait for the right moment for a fireball. You have to get used to waiting.


-Experiance is EXTREAMLY important. No matter what you're doing, keep an eye out for grunts you can farm. Always try to level up as FAST as possible. Hitpoint stacking hurts TB more then anyone else so getting 4, 7, and 10 early can REALLY swing the game in your favor.

-Level 15 is your trump card. You can MELT people with your 3,425 burst. But if the games goes on much longer, you'll lose the Window of this combo's effectivness and end up on a tight spot.

-You are SUPREME at tearing down towers. Your autoattack is HUGE from the get go and when grunts go in as fodder, even if you can just hit the tower 5 times (at level 1) that's over 1,000 damage. Fireball while waiting for re-enforcements and ensure that when you RoI to kill the grunts, the AoE hits the tower too. At later levels, when Frost Nova isn't killer on the mana, you can use it to delay your fodder from dying and be damaging a tower that much longer.


 

Tactics Per Demigod:
Now, these are pretty much just general tips. It's all stuff I've done to help me in multiple games, but just I said, it's always different per player.

Generals

Lord Erebus:
Against:
-Know that Bat Swarm is coming. This goes for every DG. So many people on my side just seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that he can Bat even though he's killed them because they didn't prepare once already.

-Deep Freeze RIGHT before he gets in Bite range. Force him to endure a long cooldown on Bite. This right here is enough to push many LE players back. My guess is they don't feel safe without bite ready.

-Fake out your fireballs against a good LE. If you're good, you'll juke his mist, he'll waste mana, and you still hit him.

-Freezing Minions with Frost Nova saves lives. Do it.-Just like UB, be VERY careful about over extending. 

-Early game, you can surprise LE with your AA damage. Let him run at you and bite and AA him and he will get quite the chunk taken.

-Deep Freeze his Stun. It's really easy to spot and hear.

With:

-My favorite 2v2 partner.

-When you're fighting with an Erebus, count on him to finish people. You just want to weaken people to about 50% or less. Erebus should Bat in and apply a LOT of pressure. 

-Mist is a GREAT ability to buy time. If you can buy 10 seconds with a TB trying to push people back, you have a much better chance of living. 

-Stand in mist. Its not much healing, but it helps.

-Same as minion Oak, save RoI till when LE is nearby so he gets minions

-Watch for Bite. It only lasts 5 seconds, but your AA will hit harder and they will NOT outrun you. Take advantage when you can

-Time your stuns together. Let him go first. His will last longer. While they're stunned, get into a good nova position. Use yours as they are leaving as it has a slow component. 

-Retreat a LOT. No one can punish over-extending like LE can. Keep pots on you to lure the enemy into a good LE pounce position.

Oak:
Against:
-Juke Pent by canceling Fireball erratically.

-If you think he is going to shield, Deep Freeze right before he does. His cooldown will be quite some time afterward. Doesn't work with level III shield and on.

-Interrupt SoF whenever possible. Oak and his allies rely on this skill a lot to escape and chase people down. 

-If you can time a Frost Nova right, you can catch an Oak off guard and take away a precious second for him to shield. I noticed they all like to wait till the very end. 

-If you are fighting a minion Oak, Frost Nova is often better then Fire Nova. Freezing the minions will give you a brief period to work Oak himself. Doubly better if he has the Horn of Battle as its a PAIN to kill em anyway. Better to just take them out of the picture. Also, ensure you watch for him going for Towers. Freezing them next to a tower helps.

-Learn to hate him for his shield. It's lame and the more people that hate him for it the better.

-It's a long haul with Oak, but after level 4 (or level 2 if he didn't go for BotF) you should be able to whittle him down.

-If he is stacking health then his mana should be more limited. Force him to recast minions by killing them whenever you get the chance. 

-Going to emphasize interrupting SoF. I've biffed a few times not catching a clutch Deep Freeze opportunity to kill SoF during a getaway that got me caught and hurt.

-Oak is terrible at taking out minions early on. Once you get priests, the health upgrade will hurt Oak as his SoF won't be able to take them down nearly as fast.

With:

-My 2nd favorite to 2v2 with. (Be it in a 3v3 and just 2 of us on a side or a 2v2)

-Be patient with your burst. Check his mana (You HAVE to have the UI mod), if he has enough for Pent, wait for it. When he Pents, UNLOAD on who he pented.
At: (Assuming highest Pent and full burst)
lvl 4 - 93 more damage.
lvl 7 - 189 more damage.
lvl 10 - 296 more damage.
lvl 15 - 548 more damage.
lvl 20 - 676 more damage.
Just for reference.

-If Oak is going to SoF to chase a weak DG, hit your wand of speed if you have it, run AHEAD of the DG and Frost Nova. The point of the Frost Nova isn't the stun for 1 second, its the 10% slow for 5 seconds. That combined with SoF, Oak should be able to catch up while you RoI/Fireball.

-Oak is ballsy with his shields, try to make life easier on him by freezing towers if he runs past the point of suicide for you.

-On that note, make sure you pay attention to the situations Oak runs into. I've been Bus'ed by plenty of Oaks, lol.

-You should always have a speed advantage with Oak. SoF/Frost Nova/Pent can make sure one person is catchable if they retreat.

-If you're with a minion Oak and you're both at a grunt wave, wait for him to drop his ward. RoI will reward you both with exp, you with gold, and Oak with Spirits.

Occulus:
Against:
-No interrupt. Fireball away!

-Watch for crazy bounces with Chain Lightning. Never assume you're out of range when there are other targets near you.

-Watch for Occ getting close. When he does his buttjump next to you, he hits twice. Following with Chain Lightning can be quite the burst.

-Try to keep distance between yourself and your allied when facing Occ. All his dmg is pretty much AoE so you'll help his cow-ass out by keeping close to each other.

-Remember his port. Either chasing or running, remember the threat exists. 
-Its an EXP race against a good Occ. Make sure you win that race. You're both nukers and if hes nuking better, your team has quite the disadvantage.

-At the start of the game, remember Occ has crazy mana issues. You can nuke FAR more often until he gets helms. Then you will have the HP advantage for a bit in the early game. If he goes straight HP, make sure you cast a LOT more then him to make him pay.

-Watch for the death-balls at lvl 15. That's HIS trump card. Worry about it.

With:
-WIP

Queen of Thorns:
Against:
-Don't stare, she hates that.

-Watch for her to open up. when she goes into open form and moves toward a group of creeps or a tower its a safe bet shes going to AoE. Interrupt that crap.

-Try to keep track of your damage and her level. Assume she took the highest shield ASAP, because its more often then not, true. 

-As soon as you break her shield, Deep Freeze. Swap as SOON as fireball finishes so you can still catch it. You have a snowball's chance in hell of catching the interrupt (I have a few times, but NEVER depend on it) but if she casts it when Deep Freeze is on (and you know Queens, they don't like not having a shield), her next will be 130% longer cooldown. Try to time this when you know you can chase/burst her down after she shields, otherwise you just saved her mana.

-Watch the damn Spike Wave. That damn thing has a HUGE range and the movement speed debuff HURTS.

-Fireball away. She can't stop you.

-Frost Nova is great for her minions. If you miss an Interrupt on Ground Spikes, Frost Nova. Her minions are her damage. They will be frozen the full duration of the Ground Spike debuff so it doesn't help her much.

-Watch the Shamblers. If one is running at you, chances are its going jihad on your ass. (When they are mulched, they AoE. So be careful)

With:
-I haven't gotten a chance to truely 2v2 with a QoT, though I do want to.

-Some ideas I'm looking forward to trying:

-Ground Spikes/+100 Weapon Damage together

-Frost Nova/Spike Wave slows.

-Being with a QoT period allows you to be a little less causious, just be aware how much dmg the shield you currently have has taken

-I wanted to try a QoT who uses Mulch for AoE dmg with me. It's cheap as balls (but the minions aren't, lol)

Sedna:
Against:
-Heal Interrupts are epic. Sedna usually expects the heal to go through without a hitch. The heal interrupts are hard, but can be a sick move.

-More often then not, it's better to treat heal like Shield with QoT. If you miss Deep Freeze, the duration is over before her next heal casts. If you cast it before she heals and she does, shes got quite the wait ahead of her.

-BUT! If Sedna is running and you're chasing, have Deep Freeze ready and your mouse over her. The SECOND she stops, Deep Freeze. Not only did you interrupt heal, but she stopped to do it so you could catch up.

-When a Sedna is barreling at you, what is she gunna do? Pounce! This is an easy version of interrupting spit. Wait till shes right on you and Deep Freeze her. I stopped 8 in a row at the start of a game. Saved me a HELL of a lot of damage AND dragged Sedna further from safety as it is a melee range ability.

-Early priests are great against Sedna too. She sucks against grunts. 

-Silence at the wrong time hurts. Careful if you noticed her use it once.

-At the start of the game, Sedna is cake. Just attrition her and you will burn her mana and she will have to leave.

-At the end of a long game (15+), Do not shatter Sedna. The -75% Regen is a HUGE boon to you as her Regen will be nut-so.

-I kinda just read over Hedge saying this like 3 times, lol. Once Sedna gets lvl 3 heal, it dispells Deep Freeze before it can hurt her cooldowns.
I liked how he worded it so:

"since you'll force her to either heal no one for 5 seconds, heal 1 other person once then be on cooldown for the rest of the battle or heal herself and wait for 7 seconds to heal someone else"
-awuffleablehedgie 

With:
-WIP

Assassins:

Unclean Beast: 
Against:
-Obviously, Unclean is going to be the biggest pain when it comes to the life of a Torch Bearer. I take GREAT pleasure in working an Unclean Beast. 

-The most important thing to remember is never Fireball an Unclean who's spit you haven't seen recently used. 300 dmg compared to 500 damage isn't a good trade. 

-Hang back and pelt with Rain of Ice when grunt waves arrive and when you feel you can (IE: hes about to pull back a few yards), target Fireball. 

-Deep Freeze is amazing for stopping Spit. If you don't trust your judgment for interrupting it, hit him with it right before he spits so his next is a much longer cooldown. 

-Later in the game, he will feel ballsy enough to chase you into towers so do not count on them for defense. 

-Time Frost Nova so it his him RIGHT before he is within Grasp Range and back off. 

-UB has the highest armor (Which is stupid) so your auto attack will be the least effective on him. That's good to know.

-When there is an UB in the game, avoid over extending. More-so then anyone else (tied with Erebus though)-Be careful of UBs luring you with low health, just to sigil after he pulls you far enough from safety. This is most dangerous with this asshole.

With:
-Time you're stuns. Remember, his goes first cause yours has a slow. 

-As with Erebus, look to make your opponent over-extend.

-Use your interrupts. You don't have priests, you will need to prevent as much dmg as possible.

-Remember the bastard has ooze and will kill all those juicy RoI/BotS targets before RoI can land

-That's all I got for him for now. lol. I hate UB.

Rook:
Against:
-Rain of Ice is devastating to Rook. He AND his towers taking damage is a no good situation for him. Try to time them with Grunt waves for even more efficiency.

-Frost Nova is your biggest asset against a Tower Rook. If you get assistance, before the Rook notices, run slightly behind him and Frost Nova to clear the way for your ally.

-Every time Rook tries to forward his line, fireball his face.-If he is hiding back in his towers, use fireball to take out old ones.

-Deep Freeze can work to great effect if you hit Rook right before his tower rises. You can DRASTICALLY slow how quick he can raise his farm.

-Rook has a lot of hitpoints, but his armor is low. Use your beefy Auto attack to chip away whenever you get a chance. This is very effective at the start of the game. Also very useful with Frost Nova.

-Time your fireballs with your grunt waves, you can move much further forward while they act as fodder. Towers seem to target grunts before Demigods, so take advantage when you can. 

-Deep Freeze Hammer slam, duh.

-Try to predict Boulder Rolls, it can be an epic interrupt if you do it at the right time. Deep Freeze can KILL the cooldown for boulder Roll, so if you know hes going to use it, (IE: Hes been using it to interrupt your Fireball) its always a good idea. 

With:
-WIP

Regulus:
Against:
-Always have a pot. Always. You're more then likely going to take the brunt of snipes. 

-Don't let yourself stay out with low health too long. 

-Priests early will help more with Reg (and UB) then anyone else. 

-Let grunts take mines. If he takes the time to mine up a flag. Just be patient and wait for the next grunt wave.

-Observation Wards Observation Wards Observation Wards Observation Wards Observation Wards.

-Ok, this has netted me a kill when I really needed it plenty of times. Whenever you are fighting Reg and he retreats into the Fog of war. 9 times out of 10 he is going to snipe you. If he is low on health, take a shot in the dark by running forward and casting a max range RoI. You'll be surprised (and so will he) how many times this works.

-Other then the snipes, Reg is meat for you. He can't stop Fireball in any way and has no other ways to mitigate damage without General or Priest support.

-Watch for the Mines-at-the-feet when casting FB. Cancel FB and move back when you see him tossin'.

-If you get caught with MotB in an intense fight, back off to your tower. Changing forms will trigger it and ensure it doesn't hit you at a very bad time.

-It's important to out-level Reg. If he is able to beat you to 4 or 7 and is a snipe spec (a good snipe spec), it WILL hurt. Bad.

With:
-Its a tough road to hoe, but you're just the joe to hoe it.

-If Reg is on the ball, you will be able to apply plenty of pressure. You're goal is to have them afraid of the sudden dmg. 

-If you're fighting together, you need a scorched earth game. Let him retreat first to get mines setup, then retreat over them. Never try to out muscle anyone.

-Carry Universal Gadgets. You will need them. 

-Call for snipes when you need them. Prefferably about 7 seconds after a Fireball so that you can FB/RoI and have snipe land in between

-You're the only one who can interrupt. Remember that. You will need to be good.

-Early priests helps a LOT! Yo

-Take advantage of shop trips. You should be able to have them retreat enough to get some good tower dmg in.

Demon Assassin:
Against:
-MOST IMPORTANT!: Do Not run far from DA when he has backup. ALWAYS STAY IN RANGE TO DEEP FREEZE! Watch for him standing on one leg (or whatever it is he does), and as soon as he does, Deep Freeze and run. I CAN'T stress this enough. The swap can and WILL fuck you if you aren't paying attention. 

-Careful with Fireball. If your in range to fireball, he is in range to Spine you. His casts caster too, the bastard. It does more damage at the start, so getting the fireball off and letting him spine you doesn't help. 

-Always remember he can warp RIGHT to you. ALSO note that he can warp to grunts and the like to get away.

-DA sucks against grunts. Early priests help a lot against a DA. You'll always have priests to heal you if you're fighting over a lane as he wont be able to kill them. You will though. 

-Remember the Combo is: Swap, Warp, Spine. Just remember that. It hurts. If you miss the Deep Freeze, your in for a world of hurt.

-DA is mana Dependent, unless he goes for passives. If hes not a passive DA, you'll tear him to shreds with his low health. If hes passive, you don't have much to worry about. 

-If hes actually using Warp Area, RoI about a second after he started it. By the time he finishes, the RoI will land.

With:
-An Absolute Blast of a Partner-With Warp/Spine/FB/RoI, you have quite a burst to work with. With swap in the mix, it's hard to escape from being bursted even more.

-Very squishy. You will need to stack health asap. You can't escape like he can.

-Another partner it pays a LOT to have a UG with. He can and will get himself into bad situations. Count on it.

-Remember the crazy range of swap. Don't start retreating when he JUST gets in range

-The rest is just reacting. The goal is a setup for a good gank. No muscle here. 

The rest is just experience. You obviously can't describe everything about how you play.
Also, all tips are just general and should be taken with a grain of salt. Every encounter is different and every opponent, even same Demigods, play in different ways.


 

 

Replays coming soon...

 

Update 5/2/10:

Cleaned up OP.

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May 28, 2010 7:29:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thundercles,
IIf you're using Fire Aura to run back to base quicker after getting beat up on then you're using it poorly.

Disagreed.  This allows you to go back to base more often and recharge faster than your opponent, but more importantly, it's used so you can safely push the side double towers down yet escape without a problem when someone ports in.  Personally I run myself oom and very low hp prior to this, so it's not like I go back to base for nothing.  If someone doesn't port in, the tower is gone and I'm on the next one.  If someone ports in, I'm low on health and mana after I throw a last fireball and outrun them back to my base.  I drew and hopefully I'm being chased so their flag stays mine for as long as possible.  Regardless of anything, the tower is almost gone, and I'll be back in the lane before they can do much of anything.

Obviously yes, there are other uses for it and I use them, but to say that that isn't one of them is foolish.

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May 28, 2010 7:34:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm really looking forward to fucking with the Fire Aura and giants

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May 28, 2010 8:10:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting RAWRRRR,

Quoting Thundercles, reply 524IIf you're using Fire Aura to run back to base quicker after getting beat up on then you're using it poorly.

Disagreed.  This allows you to go back to base more often and recharge faster than your opponent, but more importantly, it's used so you can safely push the side double towers down yet escape without a problem when someone ports in.  Personally I run myself oom and very low hp prior to this, so it's not like I go back to base for nothing.  If someone doesn't port in, the tower is gone and I'm on the next one.  If someone ports in, I'm low on health and mana after I throw a last fireball and outrun them back to my base.  I drew and hopefully I'm being chased so their flag stays mine for as long as possible.  Regardless of anything, the tower is almost gone, and I'll be back in the lane before they can do much of anything.

Obviously yes, there are other uses for it and I use them, but to say that that isn't one of them is foolish.

Using Fire Aura as a BotF Fire TB to go back and forth from the crystal, delivering your payload of firery death over and over is not foolish of course.  I meant what I said from the perspective of a BotS Hybrid TB.  Sacrificing Blood for essentially limitless mana is rather foolish if you're constantly running back to the crystal to replenish your health anyway is what I meant.  Sorry if I didn't convey that well...

Teseer sounded like he thought of three points in Fire Aura as just your own personal Swift anklet, mainly useful for running and chasing and I just wanted to point out that once your giants and cats hit the table it is so much more than that.

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May 28, 2010 8:13:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I knew it effected other Demigods, and I knew it effected grunts, I just never gave that second part any thought, lol.

I love it.

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May 28, 2010 10:33:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Fire TB isn't so much about the "burst". It's about sustained damage, which is different than burst.

A Blood Fire TB has the hp to stand in their circle of fire, and actually take a few hits without having to back off. However, he can fireball as they come up, back off, let them run through their circle, fireball again, and have the speed to chase them with a third fireball as they change their mind and turn their back. So, because he is able to able to tank, he is able to continuously do damage and his natural speed typically allows him to chase or run without too much fear. He can kite more effectively (sustaineddamage) and he has his back turned less often, which means he is still doing damage. 

Creeps, minions, demigods all do more damage faster. A pure fire TB doesn't quite has the same creep-control that any TB with RoI will have, but CoF is still enough to kill everything but giants, even if it takes longer.

A glass cannon hybrid offers a lot more raw damage output over a short period of time, but it involves multiple long casts as well as form shifts. Each time you form shift from Ice to Fire in a battle you give up dealing ~300 damage that your AA would have done. However, even with his "mega" 3000+ damage skill cycles, it involves two obvious cast animations, one of which can be dodged (if not easily). I just think that, in general, hybrids don't have survivability until end game when they have 4 - 5 hp items and they have such high creep management it doesn't really matter what build you do. 

--

And agreeing with rawr, for a Blood Fire TB the extra speed helps shop more often which is a big thing for that build. 

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May 28, 2010 10:44:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The only long cast is Fireball, and once you get level 3 Frost Nova, you're able to finish casting Fireball by the time they exit the nova. The Burst, in my opinion, is much more useful. Most fights at end game are decided very quickly and the fact that you can sustain DPS doesn't do a whole lot of good when you only have time for one of each of your spells. (2 fireballs though)

The 'Sustained' damage is mostly AA, as you only have enough for a Fireball and two Fire Novas. That's assuming no mana items, which in order to be a 'tank' you can't get.

My point isn't that Fire TB doesn't do good damage, my point is that you offer much less useful abilities at end game. A stun/interrupt mean a LOT more then just pure damage spells.

Oh, and I noticed the condescending "mega", lol. 

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May 28, 2010 10:46:51 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog,

Each time you form shift from Ice to Fire in a battle you give up dealing ~300 damage that your AA would have done. However, even with his "mega" 3000+ damage skill cycles, it involves two obvious cast animations, one of which can be dodged (if not easily). I just think that, in general, hybrids don't have survivability until end game when they have 4 - 5 hp items and they have such high creep management it doesn't really matter what build you do. 

The form shift gives you bonuses that make up for the lost AA damage

The hybrid TB is great in team fights because he does proportionally more damage with every new target (with the exception of fireball). In group fights, it's difficult to even see something as obvious as fireball or frost nova in time to interrupt them. And that's assuming the interrupts haven't already been used, which is never a fair assumption.

Even with BotF, I don't see TB tanking anything any time soon. Teseer's build gives the best chance of survival IMO because you can forgo mana helms for health stacking.

 

Hybrid builds also scale much better. Circle of flame doesn't really do much at level 10, and your health won't be as high as a hybrid because you need at least 1 mana helm. At level 15, a hybrid TB will slow you down, stun you, increase your cooldowns, and burst you to the moon, compared to fire TB who can run around really fast and point a hair dryer at you while giants are busy having their way with him.

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May 28, 2010 10:52:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Splitshadow,

compared to fire TB who can run around really fast and point a hair dryer at you while giants are busy having their way with him.

I think I was pretty close to dead from laughing, lol. 

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May 28, 2010 10:53:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

My point is mostly that Fire TB is actually useful mid-game because he is able to sustain damage with less risk before a BotS build is able to acquire sufficient HP to make up for the lack of blood.

Primary advantages of BotS is they are able to level faster (stay out longer) and they have a slightly stronger end-game then a Blood since they have "infinite" mana but about the same amount of hp. 

You also don't really spam Nova... mostly just CoF and Fireball. Nova is for... occasionally doing damage when it's a clusterfuck and you need to do damage NOW not 10 seconds from now. 

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May 28, 2010 11:43:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I just feel Fire TB brings much less to the table then Hybrid.

I'm not saying don't ever play it, but when all you have is damage (and not a whole lot), you're much less of an asset.

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May 28, 2010 11:44:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Splitshadow,

Even with BotF, I don't see TB tanking anything any time soon. Teseer's build gives the best chance of survival IMO because you can forgo mana helms for health stacking.

 

Hybrid builds also scale much better. Circle of flame doesn't really do much at level 10, and your health won't be as high as a hybrid because you need at least 1 mana helm. At level 15, a hybrid TB will slow you down, stun you,

He tanks just fine with over 6k hp prior to a sigil.  Even if you "don't see" it, it happens.

Circle of flame still does it's job, and there aren't giants on the field until you get more points in it anyway.

Your actual hp is higher, although they might have a bit more armor (no item under 6k has over 800 hp).

At lvl 15, you have j-treads, and like I posted above, it does not matter how much slow they have, you will get away.  I'll reiterate, I ran away from a beast from the enemy cooldown flag back to the crystal; the beast had poison dagger, j-treads, wand of speed, inner beast, and diseased claws.

Post 15 (late game) a fire tb has an interrupt no matter what build they go (unless they pick up stats lol).  Frost Nova to keep the portal through stuns, or maxing deep freeze to get the 1350 fireballs and still have the interrupt.

Also, if fire tb's hair dryer is enough to hold the lane through giants or push people off flags, then that's cool I guess.

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May 29, 2010 12:49:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Teseer gets one mana helm. The only way any BotS build can catch up to a Blood TB in hp is if they go no mana helms (Fire TB only gets one helm). You can actually do this as a BotS TB around level 15 or so. But a Fire TB with Inspiriational Flame gets by completely fine with just one helm and, assuming careful usage of abilities, fine before as well as long as you shift forms enough. 

The form shift gives you bonuses that make up for the lost AA damage

Ice -> Fire gives no bonus during combat. In fact, it's a liability since you stop attacking and moving, whereas Fire -> Ice is just fine. I didn't say that going from Fire -> Ice is bad, even for pure Fires. Just that going back to fire sucks. 

Yes, fire does bring a bittle bit less to the table than any hyrbrid. But it does bring constant DPS, helps hold flags (CoF is like spitting on everyone in the area) and can actually stand in a firefight for a split second. 

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May 29, 2010 12:51:18 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Also, rawr, Frost Nova isn't a "real" interupt. It merely delays the cast and forces them to recast. It doesn't force a cooldown on them. 

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May 29, 2010 1:26:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Works on delaying for a DF

And having the HP advantage Fire V Hybrid isn't a big deal, but I don't like to focus TB v TB. 

You can work with Fire TB, but just having a lot of health but 3 subpar moves isn't fantastic. Period.

Edit: Typed of instead of but for some reason. 

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May 29, 2010 2:09:45 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I kinda enjoy how you point out exactly what you edit.

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May 29, 2010 5:08:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

... 3 subpar moves.... 

this coming from the guy who says fireball is the bread and butter of any tb!  wtf over.  Also, fire circle is not subpar at all.  Like bugger said, it's like spitting on everyone in a large 3v3 battle or even a 2v2 battle.  Either the enemy will stay and fight you in it, or they will run away and eat more fireballs / damage from your teammates anyway until they are out of it.  

Also.. ya.. I know.. but.. what I meant by frost nova was that you go in and lock a portal even with someone who has an interrupt there.

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May 29, 2010 5:21:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

wooo double post

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May 29, 2010 9:30:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not saying subpar from the TB pool of moves, I'm talking overall.

Look at say...Oak. 

Pent/SoF/Shield.

Pent and SoF do dmg, but they have fantastic little extras tacked on. Shield is a crazy utility spell. 

Fireball/RoF/FN.

All do damage and have no other effect. 

But yes, Fireball is subpar at level 15 without Fire/Ice.

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May 29, 2010 12:21:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Rain of fire?

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May 29, 2010 1:01:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ring. Circle of Fire sounds pansyish.

Edit: Rain of Fire was pretty sick looking though, back in the day. TB's Beta voice was also 1,000x better

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May 29, 2010 1:18:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Never thought of the getting creeps to a base faster...I've actually been getting Fire Aura in those long games from 18-20, so I'm defiantly gunna try that.

I've started doing the same thing, Fire Aura instead of Nova, but actually getting it earlier than 18-20.

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May 29, 2010 1:20:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I never get it till then, lol.

I cant stand not having a single part of the build.

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May 29, 2010 2:02:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Circle of Flame

  • Damage does not scale well, at the end of the game, it's practically useless
  • The damage is 100% avoidable; ranged characters can laugh at your circle while they crush your health bar
  • It's dangerous - you must stand in the center of all your targets, which means you are going to take some heavy damage.
  • It has a long cast - almost anyone can interrupt circle of flame, which means you'll take a ton of damage for nothing

Fireball

  • 1050 damage end game is OK, but 1350 makes a much bigger difference when your enemy's monks can't heal it all off.
  • Its strength is that it can be spammed

Fire Nova

  • Strong, quick AoE damage, good in team fights and for clearing creeps
  • Not as good as Rain of Ice because it has a longer cooldown, you must be lvl 15 to max it out, costs more mana, doesn't give the nice debuffs

 

Teseer's build gets Fire Nova later because it's another strong skill to spam. A pure fire build has nothing great. Teseer's build is good because it takes all the good skills from both skill lines. Taking circle of flame over rain of ice is crazy. Taking fire aura over deep freeze is equally crazy. Rain of Ice is hands down a better skill than circle of flame. Deep freeze is TB's only real interrupt, it deals decent damage, and it gives a uniquely obnoxious debuff. 

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May 29, 2010 2:09:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Teseer,
I never get it till then, lol.

I cant stand not having a single part of the build.

Yeah. I figured that. It's only in the beta phase, but I've been playing around with getting RoI 3 and 4 levels 11-12. It leaves you short on mana for those couple of levels when RoI doesn't totally fill your bar, but I just prioritize Plenor a little more. The ability to chase people down all game with FB is very nice, before you can afford speed items. Plus, you get the AA bonus while you're chasing (or kiting). As soon as you hit 12, you're right back into your build, though you have now pushed off Fire and Ice and Biting Chill to 16 and 17.

Your classic build does more straight-up damage earlier, and doesn't suffer from a couple of levels of iffy mana, but this way puts you in better position to do all that damage.

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May 29, 2010 3:42:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMG_Splitshadow,
Circle of Flame


Damage does not scale well, at the end of the game, it's practically useless
The damage is 100% avoidable; ranged characters can laugh at your circle while they crush your health bar
It's dangerous - you must stand in the center of all your targets, which means you are going to take some heavy damage.
It has a long cast - almost anyone can interrupt circle of flame, which means you'll take a ton of damage for nothing

The reason you see it is "useless" is because the proper Fire TB build doesn't level it up until level 11, which is to get Inspirational Flame @15.  Even maxed out at level 14, it doesn't do massive damage, but it's still basically like spitting on everyone (including monks) in the area, and you can re-cast it on top of iteself. That's pretty big. As I said, sustained damage. 

Yes, it is far less useful against ranged characters, which is why you back up after you CoF it. If they want to AA you, they have to walk into your circle. If they don't, you Fireball them. 

Thankfully, Fire TB has the speed and durability to take some heavy damage

You can't say it has a long cast and anyone can interrupt it when you say: 

And that's assuming the interrupts haven't already been used, which is never a fair assumption.
 

a few posts earlier. Thanks. 

 

Now, you are correct, CoF isn't going to be scaring anyone away at level 10 with it's 60 damage per tick. However, it's primary advantage is that it is one of the best farming skills in the game when you take into account mana-costs (450 mana to kill everything is dirt cheap). It also works if you walk away from the creeps in it (try it. As a creepwave walks forward, CoF just before it gets there, then port away to your crystal, you'll get full XP and Gold). 


Fireball


1050 damage end game is OK, but 1350 makes a much bigger difference when your enemy's monks can't heal it all off.
Its strength is that it can be spammed

300 more damage every 6.5 seconds is nothing to be afraid of when you have 5 levels of hp growth after that. Not to mention better items.

 


Fire Nova

Strong, quick AoE damage, good in team fights and for clearing creeps
Not as good as Rain of Ice because it has a longer cooldown, you must be lvl 15 to max it out, costs more mana, doesn't give the nice debuffs

Yes, I agree, for the most part Fire Nova is a shitty version of RoI.
 


Teseer's build gets Fire Nova later because it's another strong skill to spam. A pure fire build has nothing great. Teseer's build is good because it takes all the good skills from both skill lines. Taking circle of flame over rain of ice is crazy. Taking fire aura over deep freeze is equally crazy. Rain of Ice is hands down a better skill than circle of flame. Deep freeze is TB's only real interrupt, it deals decent damage, and it gives a uniquely obnoxious debuff.

Except he can't stay and fight to use all these great abilities. 

I also think that Fire Aura has huge benefits, far more than you consider. But that's fine :shrug: 

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