PING

By on December 1, 2009 7:38:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Zonanic

Join Date 09/2009
0

This is starting to really annoy me.

 

The australian database of members is so small we can't even get in a game.

 

WTF are you people thinking when a stable person with a slightly high ping under say 450 joins? Oh wait your ping means lag when seriously it doesnt.... If someones ping is spiking while in the lobby sure LAG but when they sit constantly at a nice ping why keep pursuing this invisible lag barrier?

You guys need to get over this idea that ping is everything, you get some USA host then he makes a game has a low ping but his sim speed is below 5 oh wait he had a low ping he don't lag but he is lagging your whole game with sim speed!

I have played many games with people ping higher then 300 no problems no lag and its due to watching how stable they are....

All you need is someone to open a webpage or start talking on MSN to see a ping spike or look unstable lol so GL to all the morons btw.

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December 1, 2009 7:46:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks?

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December 1, 2009 7:47:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just to clarify:

Any ping under 350 is perfectly acceptable as the game has built in simulated-LAG for this amount.

Any SIM Speed over 1 is perfectly acceptable, as your SIM Speed is the number of times faster you're capable of running the game at that moment - SIM Speed of 5 means you can run the game 5 times faster than it is currently running. This is a residual feature from the Supreme Commander engine.

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December 1, 2009 10:48:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZehDon,
Just to clarify:

Any ping under 350 is perfectly acceptable as the game has built in simulated-LAG for this amount.

Any SIM Speed over 1 is perfectly acceptable, as your SIM Speed is the number of times faster you're capable of running the game at that moment - SIM Speed of 5 means you can run the game 5 times faster than it is currently running. This is a residual feature from the Supreme Commander engine.

 

My fave is when someone tells me I am the source of lag because my sim speed is 5 and his is 9.  Please.

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December 1, 2009 11:14:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

My fave is when someone tells me I am the source of lag because my sim speed is 5 and his is 9. Please.
This made me lol!

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December 2, 2009 2:09:46 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Haha yeah, I've seen players get flammed alot for having SIM Speeds of 4 in the end game. Get tired of correcting people some days

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December 2, 2009 7:36:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

man i played 5v5 with american players with 380 pings that lag less then 3v3 with 200 ping...why cause it depends on how stable ur conn is...if somone sayts they got a stable con give it a go? whats the wrost u remake OMFG

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December 2, 2009 10:13:47 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Demigod now has a remake option?

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December 2, 2009 10:20:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i think hes just glad he got that one off his chest...

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December 2, 2009 11:36:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting GnomeChomp,
Demigod now has a remake option?

 

 

rehost...remake?

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December 2, 2009 4:04:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting gkrit,
i think hes just glad he got that one off his chest...

Speaking of Australian gkrit has no problem playing in my games unless there are people from russia, america and australia in it. If its just gkrit and a bunch of americans there is no problem. His ping is even better than some Americans.

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December 2, 2009 8:25:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

mmmmmmm.....

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December 4, 2009 3:46:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZehDon,
Just to clarify:

Any ping under 350 is perfectly acceptable as the game has built in simulated-LAG for this amount.

Any SIM Speed over 1 is perfectly acceptable, as your SIM Speed is the number of times faster you're capable of running the game at that moment - SIM Speed of 5 means you can run the game 5 times faster than it is currently running. This is a residual feature from the Supreme Commander engine.

 

I thought P2P was chosen because it is more reponsive and has less lag than client/server? Now its the case there is an artificial lag of 350ms?

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December 4, 2009 4:07:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I thought P2P was chosen because it is more reponsive and has less lag than client/server? Now its the case there is an artificial lag of 350ms?
Every RTS has an artificial lag built in. StarCraft has 250 ms in Battle.Net for example (100 ms in LAN). This is made to provide fluent gameplay.

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December 4, 2009 5:17:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"Every RTS has an artificial lag built in. StarCraft has 250 ms in Battle.Net for example (100 ms in LAN). This is made to provide fluent gameplay."

1.  Every RTS has built in lag.  Are you certain of that?

2.  Not really sure how that is relevant, anyway.  Can we never hear the argument "Demigod uses peer to peer because it requires split second timing" again?

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December 4, 2009 5:25:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

1. Every RTS has built in lag. Are you certain of that?
Quite certain. In case of StarCraft there is even a tool to announce LAN games to Battle.Net in order to trick StarCraft into thinking it's a LAN only game and thus using a netlag value of 100 ms instead of the default 250 ms over Battle.Net, even though you are still able to play over Battle.Net. iirc WarCraft III uses 350 ms just like Demigod.

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December 4, 2009 6:30:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Right, so Starcraft and Warcraft have it, so every RTS must have it?  And again, don't really see how that is relevant.

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December 4, 2009 6:39:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No, that's not what I tried to say. I think I posted the netlag values of other games like World in Conflict and C&C in another thread here on the Stardock forums, maybe I can find it again.

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December 4, 2009 7:33:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Right, and what does that prove?

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December 4, 2009 7:37:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You were wondering about the default net_lag of Demigod and made it sound like this is something out of the ordinary and I just wanted to clarify that.

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December 4, 2009 8:04:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Nope, I'm saying we were told the justification for Demigod using peer to peer was because there was less latency than client/server in order to make split-second actions.  Introducing simulated lag just shows thats BS.

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December 4, 2009 8:15:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Nope, I'm saying we were told the justification for Demigod using peer to peer was because there was less latency
The peer to peer system is used for two main reasons:

  • The Moho Engine runs a synchronized simulation. Meaning every client calculates everything and the calculation results are compared with each player directly. This makes cheating without exploiting bugs in the system virtually impossible. If someone tries to force a cheat on to the system, results will mismatch and the game will desynchronize (this of course can be exploited to avoid losses, but that's another story).
  • Latency between players is reduced, since they all have a direct connection to each other. In a server client system, the information from one player to another always goes through the server first.

in order to make split-second actions
I don't think anyone has phrased it like that. And even so, 350ms is still a fraction of a second, technically .

Introducing simulated lag just shows thats BS
Without a "simulated lag" every RTS game that uses some form of timed data synchronization would stutter all the time, no matter how low your ping is, regardless of whether it's peer-to-peer or client-server.

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December 5, 2009 5:34:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"The Moho Engine runs a synchronized simulation. Meaning every client calculates everything and the calculation results are compared with each player directly. This makes cheating without exploiting bugs in the system virtually impossible. If someone tries to force a cheat on to the system, results will mismatch and the game will desynchronize (this of course can be exploited to avoid losses, but that's another story)."

That's a lazy dev's answer.  If cheating is going to be a problem, put in an anti-cheat.

 

1)      "Latency between players is reduced, since they all have a direct connection to each other. In a server client system, the information from one player to another always goes through the server first.""

2)      "I don't think anyone has phrased it like that. And even so, 350ms is still a fraction of a second, technically"

The second sentence renders the first moot.  If you're adding 350ms to the latency, the advantage of using a direct connection is taken away.

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December 5, 2009 8:06:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That's a lazy dev's answer. If cheating is going to be a problem, put in an anti-cheat.
The synchronized simulation is the anti-cheat system. It's not a lazy dev's answer... such a system is quite complex.

If you're adding 350ms to the latency, the advantage of using a direct connection is taken away.
You still don't understand. It doesn't matter how low your latency is. The game would still stutter if no netlag is used in the system. The default value of 350 ms is arbitrarily set, so that many people around the world can play with each other fluently. If it was set to 50 ms for example, you could only play with people in your neighborhood for example.

The netlag simply amplifies the range of people who can play with each other and so does the p2p system. If the system wasn't peer to peer and the netlag value would stay the same, less people would be able to play with each other without stutter.

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December 5, 2009 10:25:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"The synchronized simulation is the anti-cheat system. It's not a lazy dev's answer... such a system is quite complex."

It is the lazy devs answer if the synchronized simulation is creating a huge problem in itself... lag.

"You still don't understand. It doesn't matter how low your latency is. The game would still stutter if no netlag is used in the system. The default value of 350 ms is arbitrarily set, so that many people around the world can play with each other fluently. If it was set to 50 ms for example, you could only play with people in your neighborhood for example."

Nope, you are the one missing the point.  I'm not saying whether the game would or wouldn't stutter - I'm saying there is no advantage to using p2p over client/server from a latency point of view.  This is what we were told when the game was released. 

"The netlag simply amplifies the range of people who can play with each other and so does the p2p system. If the system wasn't peer to peer and the netlag value would stay the same, less people would be able to play with each other without stutter."

The logic behind this is flawed but there is no point in even explaining why, when I can just point to games like Heroes of Newerth and League of Legends (both client/server) which run 5 vs 5 games with no lag and Demigod which (95% of the time) can't (what are the chances of getting 10 people in a pub game all with great connections?)

95% of the games played in HoN and LoL are 5vs5.  Why is it not the same in Demigod? Because the players have no confidence they will be able to get a smooth, robust game.

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December 5, 2009 10:31:20 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is a post from Frogboy back in April:

 

"In Demigod, it is peer-to-peer. This was necessary because it needed to have the least amount of latency possible since your moves are directly sent to the other players rather than to a server first.  Because the action in Demigod focuses a great deal on Melee in the third person (i.e. players can see their hits) a lot of traditional methods to mask latency aren't possible. Peer-to-peer reduces the problem of "lag"."

 

Yeah, right up until you stick 350 ms artifical ping onto it!

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