A way to simply improve those caster Demigod types so they scale better with UB and others.

By on November 3, 2009 5:11:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

XaviorsFist

Join Date 12/2008
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I'm going to try a layout in my post here. Tell me how it works.

Problem: Caster types such as TB and QoT late game lack the power needed to take on the melee based demigods.

Why: All their damage is based on ability damage which makes it so there is no possible increase. Demigods like UB and Oak can just stack their ashkandor and easily come up in melee damage with more damage than a TB could ever put out against a target.

What people might be saying to counter that: Well all their damage is ability based so no mitigation or anything. UB and Oak have to health stack. They can't just put their items into damage.

Why that statement does have validity: It is true up until 40k gold. Also no damage items are good enough at that level to make up for the health you would lose in comparison to the cost.

Why that statement only covers part of the issue: It is true but only up until 40k gold. At this point well... TB and QoT fall short (I am using those 2 because their the ones I'm most familiar with). While TB and QoT are even or may even have the upper hand til that point the game is lost after you hit that point. No amount of items can make TB or QoT scale to a UB that has 60k gold. Between the mana items they both need to sustain their damage and the health items needed to keep them alive against UB and such they have no room for damage items that may even make them do damage against UB in their auto attacks. Plus both of them have low auto-attack damage and no abilities to improve it. While UB and Oak have abilities that increase their attack speed and damage and both have a high base.

Solution: I have 2 ways to go about this. I prefer option 1.

Option 1

  • The easiest and simplist way would to allow the player to chose if they want the fix. Which is what this focus's on.
  • Add a favor item with these abilities. Call it The Sage's Amulet or something like that.
  1. Increase mana by 500
  2. Incrase mana regen by 3
  3. All weapon damage increases turn into spell power which effects ability attacks in ways specified on the skill.

Example: Fireball does 300 damage at the level 1 version of it. Something nice and flat. Now to the end of the description you would add something like     Spell Power Ratio: 3. This would mean that for every extra weapon damage you get this attack now does 3 more damage. So lets say you had an extra 25 with those early gauntlets. Now you do 375 for this ability. Significant and since most of the damge items that would make a significant impact are later game this would mostly be a late game advantage. Now this would be availible to anyone.

 

Option 2

Not going on the long spiel I did before. Simply put this as a default on people like TB and QoT as a side bonus for chosing them. So the assassins would be split into Regulus and TB as casters and Generals into QoT and Sedna as casters. The above stuff besides the static upgrades would just be implimented. This would probally be easier to do as it doesn't require you to program an item in that completely changes the game mechanics. This would go a long way in raising these people up to the ranks of others.

The only problem I see is mines. Mines can't get some MASSIVE boost. If either option was in effect you would need to make mines do something like 300 damage at level 1 600 together at level 4 900 at level 7 and 1200 at level 10 to make it so you don't have a 1500 damage ability at level 7. Plus this overall would balance mines a little more. As of right now they do slightly too much damage. But thats another post.

 

Tell me what yo think and if you can think of another option please tell me. I may just put it up here.



Edited in after a couple posts*

 

Now as my above idea states it would make damage items effect casters. This didn't fix the fact that these demigods still can't get those damage items without sacrificing too much so this is my new idea.

Make each mana item have a hidden spellpower bonus that is activated when you get this one favor item.

Example:

Velmish faceguard:

  • 1050 mana (not 100 percent sure on this number)
  • +11 regen
  • +4 regen aura
  • +15 spell power (45 extra fireball damage, 60 extra bramble shield health, and increase damage of each mine by 15, again if this went into effect mines would need to be cut down a little because otherwise we'd see people with 600 damage mines which is FAR too much)

This I believe would solve the problem better and still allow if you want an AA reg to exist with a bonus to angelic fury through his items AND to his attack through his items instead of one or the other. (Again just an example to get the point across)

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November 3, 2009 11:53:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i like the layout btw. its nice and clean and gets you straight to the point while showing us the perspective you are taking it from.
it also comes across as 'unbiased' i guess.

now onto ur idea about the whole situation.

that first idea could be a good idea. although it could be a little to sophisticated (maybe not though, as its hard to tell rlly).

end game rlly becomes "dps = win" and the 2 that are most capable of that at the quickest pace is UB followed by oak.
end game tb against a UB has no chance watsoever UNLESS hes got a few artifacts. TB and qot have to focus on many other areas regarding stats as they are very mana dependant and max health dependant because of their natural squishiness.

TBH, the stats of all casters need to be slightly increased.

 

Ive had this idea in my head for ages now and i think i posted it once on this forums but i don tthink it got much attention so im gonna post it here.

the idea is, have demigod specific favor item. There can be various types of these items, each enhancing the effects of certain skill and stats.

eg. TB item 1 - fireball now takes 0.5 secs to cast and does 10% more dmg. Grants 10% attack speed.
TB item2 - circle of fire does 20% more dmg and has a slightly bigger radius. Grants 5 mana regen.
TB item3 - The ice and fire buff when switching forms lasts 100% longer. skills cooldown 25% faster.

the list can go on but i think ud get the gist by now. my idea may even be a bit complicated but its been in my head for ages and have though about how it could work so its no big deal to me. lemme no what u think about my idea

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November 4, 2009 12:11:20 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ridiculous. UB does the majority of his damage from spells, don't let anyone tell you differently. Spit+Ooze is absolutely massive damage, it's not until artifacts hit the field that you see physical damage come anywhere near that amount.

Adding+magic damage from autoattack isn't going to benefit TB more than anyone else, the problem with that character is that the guy is susceptible to interrupts on every spell and can't even attack on the run.

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November 4, 2009 12:27:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Also if the DGs need their own special super powered favor items to be competitive they should be buffed outright.

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November 4, 2009 12:39:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

well u do have a point. but UB's spells are over time and ooze doesnt use up mana and can be left up as long as need to, so hes got the best dps. they may be through skills but his skills just add to his alrdy superior attack rate anyway.

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November 4, 2009 1:04:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Given that the best DPS items (other than Nature's Reckoning) improve both attack rate and damage, I think that they actually narrow the gap between UB's autoattack damage and the others.'

However, QoT can strike three targets from range and fire TB can't autoattack a fleeing target at all. The problem with QoT isn't that her autoattack is too weak, considering it can do triple damage in many situations it's actually one of the strongest aspects of that DG, and TB's primary autoattack problem is that he can't even autoattack at all. A numerical autoattack improvement isn't what those characters need.

QoT needs some skill revamps and TB just needs to actually have a functioning AA. Again, buffing these DGs through super-powered favor items only means that they become the only two DGs who have to pick the same favor item every game. It's not a good fix.

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November 4, 2009 1:32:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

TB has AA in ice mod but not in fire mode...

to give TB AA in fire mode just results in every one is playing an fire TB so not really a good idea.

But it's true that the "Mage" Demigods don't stack with items as well as the Meele ones, but thats not only the problem in Demigod, thats the point in every Game like it.

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November 4, 2009 1:32:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

introduce ability power like LoL did. very nice scaling for intel heros.

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November 4, 2009 1:48:46 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

TB has AA in ice mod but not in fire mode...

to give TB AA in fire mode just results in every one is playing an fire TB so not really a good idea.

You should want to spec ice because it's effective/fun, not because fire is broken.

But it's true that the "Mage" Demigods don't stack with items as well as the Meele ones, but thats not only the problem in Demigod, thats the point in every Game like it.
Not at all. That doesn't happen in Diablo II (someone try to claim that a Hammerdin was weak), Torchlight, or to a lesser extent WoW. According to stacked LoL has a mechanic to deal with it.

Casters scaling badly is an antiquated mechanic.

However, what people don't seem to realize is that casters get pretty much the same mileage out of autoattack buffs as melee characters, in fact QoT gets way more with her triple target attack. Those two characters just have other crippling weaknesses which hold them back.

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November 4, 2009 1:57:40 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yeh she may be able to hit multiple targets, but that doesnt help in a 1v1 situation. and coz her aa is so weak, your best decision is not even bother with fighting an opponent coz its inevitably going to result in qot falling back anwyay.

casters are too squishy atm .. their max health needs to be lifted a little.

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November 4, 2009 1:59:24 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting gkrit,
well u do have a point. but UB's spells are over time and ooze doesnt use up mana and can be left up as long as need to, so hes got the best dps. they may be through skills but his skills just add to his alrdy superior attack rate anyway.

I think a large factor of ooze that people overlook is the attack speed reduction it gives nearby opponents.  Ooze not only gives UB one of the highest DPS, but it also gives him the best defense against auto attacks.

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November 4, 2009 2:07:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Makeshift-D,
I think a large factor of ooze that people overlook is the attack speed reduction it gives nearby opponents.  Ooze not only gives UB one of the highest DPS, but it also gives him the best defense against auto attacks.
Yeah, I can't help but facepalm when people skip on ooze because they don't have the HP or regen for it. The amount of damage you deal to yourself is paltry to the amount you can prevent.

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November 4, 2009 2:09:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yeh she may be able to hit multiple targets, but that doesnt help in a 1v1 situation. and coz her aa is so weak, your best decision is not even bother with fighting an opponent coz its inevitably going to result in qot falling back anwyay.
Regardless her capacity to hit three targets isn't free. In team games it comes up frequently so she suffers in 1v1 situations because of it. That being said, even 1v1 you often take advantage of it be it from attacking minions or reinforcements as you fight.

casters are too squishy atm .. their max health needs to be lifted a little.
I completely agree.

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November 4, 2009 8:08:49 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,
Ridiculous. UB does the majority of his damage from spells, don't let anyone tell you differently. Spit+Ooze is absolutely massive damage, it's not until artifacts hit the field that you see physical damage come anywhere near that amount.

Adding+magic damage from autoattack isn't going to benefit TB more than anyone else, the problem with that character is that the guy is susceptible to interrupts on every spell and can't even attack on the run.

no offencse because your posts are always extremely well thoughtout and very true, but what are you on? when i play UB as an ooze build its ooze+AA i never even take spit. and ive seen alot of beasts run this build as well never taking spit UB is defintally more an AA than the other demigods thats why he has diseased claws

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November 4, 2009 8:38:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i am with obscenitor here except that UB does more dmg with his spit. even a spit ub will do in mid game and later definatly more dmg with AA than with spit. most times even already in early game. and if you compare it to other demigods ub is one of the ones that are at most based on AA.

but, i would not agree with the TE. in none of his points, TB does not need more health nor more dmg. and QoT does not her most dmg with direct dmg spells nor should she! isntead as a general her shamblers should get a big health buff as they are squisher than erebus nightcrawler while being at most four of them. i would increase the dmg of the shambler and a bit the aa dmg of qot, but that's all. some better scaling during the ranks of one or the other skill.

but tb? no way, fix his autoattack and reduce the siwtch time of the stance (same for qot) and he is fine.

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November 4, 2009 10:33:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Lavosking,
no offencse because your posts are always extremely well thoughtout and very true, but what are you on? when i play UB as an ooze build its ooze+AA i never even take spit. and ive seen alot of beasts run this build as well never taking spit UB is defintally more an AA than the other demigods thats why he has diseased claws
Look at the DPS of all the DGs at level 10 though (without any enhancements).

UB actually has one of the weakest autoattacks by default, but they're all within about 20 DPS 15% attack speed of each other. When they all gear up their DPS gets even more similar, UB just dominates the autoattack game because of ooze, not because his own AA is all that stellar (without artifacts).

UB

Damage 216 - 238 (226.5)
Attack Time 1.15 (+17%)

Oak

Damage 222 - 246 (233.8)
Attack Time 1.25 (+13%)

Sedna

Damage 233 - 257 (245)
Attack Time 1.33 (+10%)

QoT (x3 sometimes)

LE/EB

Damage 229 - 253 (240.1)
Attack Time 1.30 (+13%)

Regulus

Damage 195 - 215 (204.6)
Attack Time 1.19 (+18%)

Rook

Damage 266 - 294 (279.9)
Attack Time 1.41 (+18%)

TB

Damage 212 - 234 (222.8)
Attack Time 1.25 (+14%)
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November 4, 2009 11:44:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So the decesions we have come to soo far

QoT and TB need a buff because they rely too much upon mana abilities and no-one can see an easy way to do it (Continue discussion on subject) <personally I think the problem lies with an All Over buff being needed not something specific>

UB has Uber abilities. Even bestial wrath stacks well end game

Mines could do with the slighest of nerfs (and maybe a bigger one if the above ideas go into plan)

IMO (oh dear, here it comes) I think that TB needs a lot done.

  • Increase his health
  • Increase his attack damage
  • Increase his health regen
  • Increase his armour
  • Decrease the time taken to switch forms
  • Increase the time on form switching benefits
  • Maybe give his ice splash damage like QoT
  • Give him AA in fire mode
  • Fix Circle of Fire cooldown problem (deleting themselves if another is active, this should overlap instead)
  • Increase Circle of Fire radius
  • Decrease mana costs of All spells
  • Increase damage done by deep freeze

One reason TB cant beat UB also comes down to stats

Level 20 UB has (without any items) - 4115 health and 1083 armour with a dps of about 280 (450 with ooze)

Level 20 TB has (without any items) - 3500 health and 810 armour with a dps of around 290 (only 150 with ooze)

Course UB can also stack health items and dps items while TB cant do this as well. Even with fireball and rain of ice, venom spit easily makes the playing field level again and takes a fraction of the time to cast

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November 4, 2009 11:58:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Not really fair to say that TB does only 150 DPS with ooze, as ooze is a 40% attack speed reduction and RoI is also a 40% reduction, plus permafrost is another 10%, so really by that logic you should halve UB's DPS too.

 

That being said, I don't agree with a lot of things on your list. The main reason is that if UB and TB just waltz up to each other and start duking it out there's no reason why TB should win. Just think about it in terms of range vs. melee, not UB vs. TB. If a ranged unit can win in melee range, then why would you ever pick a melee unit?

 

However, I do agree that extending the damage increase period, fixing fire's moving AA, and increasing his health slightly (especially at lower levels) woudl do wonders for TB and it'd be hard to call it unfair.

Btw I really don't want to see CoF's radius increased, it's already large enough to hit an entire battle. The spell is meant to drive people from an area, not be a straight up nuke.

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November 4, 2009 2:44:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,
Ridiculous. UB does the majority of his damage from spells, don't let anyone tell you differently. Spit+Ooze is absolutely massive damage, it's not until artifacts hit the field that you see physical damage come anywhere near that amount.

Adding+magic damage from autoattack isn't going to benefit TB more than anyone else, the problem with that character is that the guy is susceptible to interrupts on every spell and can't even attack on the run.

This is tailored for end game. Where does end game most of UB's damage come from. 150 DPS from spit and 100 from ooze is normal for 2 ablities but them COUPLED with his good auto attack and auto attack enhancing skills just pushes it too far. Expecially if he has stuff like ashkandor stacked with slayers wraps and other crit stuff you can easily hitt 600 dps from auto attack. Plus as you also said it's a decrease too.

It's not the base damage i'm looking for it's the capability to stack damage items.

Quoting gkrit,


the idea is, have demigod specific favor item. There can be various types of these items, each enhancing the effects of certain skill and stats.

eg. TB item 1 - fireball now takes 0.5 secs to cast and does 10% more dmg. Grants 10% attack speed.
TB item2 - circle of fire does 20% more dmg and has a slightly bigger radius. Grants 5 mana regen.
TB item3 - The ice and fire buff when switching forms lasts 100% longer. skills cooldown 25% faster.

the list can go on but i think ud get the gist by now. my idea may even be a bit complicated but its been in my head for ages and have though about how it could work so its no big deal to me. lemme no what u think about my idea

Love it. This would do well in balancing. Another way to help improve my idea above and I just thought of it. Would be to make this item instead of effecting the weapon items make it so on all mana items a spell power increase is given. Plus this item wouldn't effect the superior damage stackers right now it would just be for the 4 casters. Kinda like the general and assassin items except this is just 1 item.

Quoting _Golgoth_,
So the decesions we have come to soo far

QoT and TB need a buff because they rely too much upon mana abilities and no-one can see an easy way to do it (Continue discussion on subject) <personally I think the problem lies with an All Over buff being needed not something specific>

UB has Uber abilities. Even bestial wrath stacks well end game

Mines could do with the slighest of nerfs (and maybe a bigger one if the above ideas go into plan)

IMO (oh dear, here it comes) I think that TB needs a lot done.


Increase his health
Increase his attack damage
Increase his health regen
Increase his armour
Decrease the time taken to switch forms
Increase the time on form switching benefits
Maybe give his ice splash damage like QoT
Give him AA in fire mode
Fix Circle of Fire cooldown problem (deleting themselves if another is active, this should overlap instead)
Increase Circle of Fire radius
Decrease mana costs of All spells
Increase damage done by deep freeze
One reason TB cant beat UB also comes down to stats

Level 20 UB has (without any items) - 4115 health and 1083 armour with a dps of about 280 (450 with ooze)

Level 20 TB has (without any items) - 3500 health and 810 armour with a dps of around 290 (only 150 with ooze)

Course UB can also stack health items and dps items while TB cant do this as well. Even with fireball and rain of ice, venom spit easily makes the playing field level again and takes a fraction of the time to cast

I wanted to keep their mana reliance. Because they are casters. I don't want to turn them into the melee demigods (if you haven't noticed all but 1 of the demigods i've mentioned this would effect are ranged) or into the super tanks that UB and Erebus can be. I wanted to just make it so his they scale. I think that if this item gave mana items the spell power it would be more usefull in the situation i'm intending it's use.

 

Edited main post and a divider between the new stuff and old stuff. Please look.

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November 4, 2009 3:07:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Expecially if he has stuff like ashkandor stacked with slayers wraps and other crit stuff you can easily hitt 600 dps from auto attack.
I don't get it. Ignoring crits, a level 15 UB with ashkandor and slayer's wraps does only 409 DPS. A TB will do 418.8...

 

So honestly, where are you coming from here? Seriously just open up the game, do a single player skirmish starting with high gold and whatever level you want and look at their stats. DPS items already buff the weak DGs more than the strong ones because they bring their relative power closer together.

The problem is that QoT and TB are just weaker than the other DGs and therefore don't get items as quickly, which makes it seem as though items are the problem. They're not.

I wanted to just make it so his they scale.
They do scale. There is no special mechanic which makes their DPS scaling worse than any melee DG.

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November 4, 2009 7:49:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

im still sticking to it that TB and Qot need either a health increase or an armor increase so that they at leat negate some of the dmg thats being dished out by aa.

the armor will allow them to hold just that little longer against a melee class while skill will still have full effect (obviously).

but obscenitor.... you make it sound as if a character being ranged is game breaking. it does have its advantages in some circumstances but it rlly isnt as advantageous as you make it out to be (with the exception of reg). if your are vsing a ub, a couple of spits on a squishy TB or Qot and you'll send them off running back to their base coz theres no way of negating that spit effect. BUT, if u rlly do think range is such a big advantage why is it that still TB dies so many times and enemies get to flee TB over and over?

Not really fair to say that TB does only 150 DPS with ooze, as ooze is a 40% attack speed reduction and RoI is also a 40% reduction, plus permafrost is another 10%, so really by that logic you should halve UB's DPS too.

rain of ice still doesnt rlly compare to ooze. ooze is practically free and u dishing out massive dps and slowing for 40%. from the start UB will generally have more health than TB anyway so UB will generally be the successor. and if u do think its an equal battle between the two taking into consideration alll thats been said till now, add a spit with ub and ull gain pretty much all of ur dps back anyway (add grasp also for some health regen).

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November 5, 2009 4:35:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,

Expecially if he has stuff like ashkandor stacked with slayers wraps and other crit stuff you can easily hitt 600 dps from auto attack.I don't get it. Ignoring crits, a level 15 UB with ashkandor and slayer's wraps does only 409 DPS. A TB will do 418.8...


 

So honestly, where are you coming from here? Seriously just open up the game, do a single player skirmish starting with high gold and whatever level you want and look at their stats. DPS items already buff the weak DGs more than the strong ones because they bring their relative power closer together.

The problem is that QoT and TB are just weaker than the other DGs and therefore don't get items as quickly, which makes it seem as though items are the problem. They're not.


I wanted to just make it so his they scale.They do scale. There is no special mechanic which makes their DPS scaling worse than any melee DG.

But looking at JUST the ashkandor and slayers wraps he does 409 it's his side abilities intertwined. Add beastial wrath and boom 700 dps. Plus spit and ooze 1000 dps. Now compare that to TB who still is stuck at around 400... sure you may negate half that Auto attack as BB so 650 dps but the UB doesn't need as many mana items as you so he probally will have significantly more health and significantly more damage items. With ashkandor and slayers wraps thats all the damage TB would be doing. With ashkandor and slayers wraps UB could be running 3 other side bonus's. It doesn't scale. I'm comparing the combat potential not the stats. You act as if this game is just number crunching. Lets see a TB beat a UB at level 20 with high starting gold.

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November 5, 2009 6:32:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

But looking at JUST the ashkandor and slayers wraps he does 409 it's his side abilities intertwined. Add beastial wrath and boom 700 dps. Plus spit and ooze 1000 dps. Now compare that to TB who still is stuck at around 400... sure you may negate half that Auto attack as BB so 650 dps but the UB doesn't need as many mana items as you so he probally will have significantly more health and significantly more damage items. With ashkandor and slayers wraps thats all the damage TB would be doing. With ashkandor and slayers wraps UB could be running 3 other side bonus's. It doesn't scale. I'm comparing the combat potential not the stats. You act as if this game is just number crunching. Lets see a TB beat a UB at level 20 with high starting gold.
Are you trying to say that UB is overpowered or that TB doesn't gain as much from DPS items as other DGs?

I agree UB is a stronger DG than TB. I disagree that it's because of items. If you compare TB to any other DG it's much simpler to explain.

As for the specifics of your post here, honestly it just doesn't make sense to me. You say TB is stuck at 400 DPS, but at level 20 with just Ashkandor and Slayer's Wraps he sits at 465 DPS, you literally have to assume he's doing negative DPS with his spells to get your figures. Also, incidentally, Inspirational Flame actually allows a high level TB to get LESS mana items than the other DGs, besides UB.

I'm focusing on numbers here because this is a numerical post. In your own OP you said:

Make each mana item have a hidden spellpower bonus that is activated when you get this one favor item.

Example:

Velmish faceguard:

  • 1050 mana (not 100 percent sure on this number)
  • +11 regen
  • +4 regen aura
  • +15 spell power (45 extra fireball damage, 60 extra bramble shield health, and increase damage of each mine by 15, again if this went into effect mines would need to be cut down a little because otherwise we'd see people with 600 damage mines which is FAR too much)

15 spell power, 45 extra fireball damage, 60 extra bramble shield health, etc. Those are numbers.

 

Honestly I just think you're ignoring me so I'm not going to stick this thread out. I said my piece. I'll close by reiterating that:

  1. The best DGs do good spell damage. Adding more damage to Penitence, Surge of Faith, Bite, Pounce, Ooze and Spit is not necessarily a net gain for TB and QoT and you've given no explanation of why those DGs wouldn't get this item too.
  2. TB and QoT already gain full benefit from DPS items. Autoattack (other than fire TB's absolutely broken AA) is not a logical solution, especially since it will improve the strong DGs as well unless you greatly alter your approach.
  3. Just buff QoT and TB directly. Why take this needlessly circuitous approach?

 

If you want me to post here (not that you probalby do) then answer these questions:

  1. Do TB and QoT gain less DPS from DPS items than other DGs?
    • If so, how?
  2. Do the currently strong DGs do more or less magic damage than QoT and TB? EXPLAIN.
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November 5, 2009 11:34:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,


Just buff QoT and TB directly. Why take this needlessly circuitous approach?
 

100% agreed these 2 need some help.

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November 6, 2009 4:55:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,

Honestly I just think you're ignoring me so I'm not going to stick this thread out. I said my piece. I'll close by reiterating that:


The best DGs do good spell damage. Adding more damage to Penitence, Surge of Faith, Bite, Pounce, Ooze and Spit is not necessarily a net gain for TB and QoT and you've given no explanation of why those DGs wouldn't get this item too.

TB and QoT already gain full benefit from DPS items. Autoattack (other than fire TB's absolutely broken AA) is not a logical solution, especially since it will improve the strong DGs as well unless you greatly alter your approach.
Just buff QoT and TB directly. Why take this needlessly circuitous approach?
 

If you want me to post here (not that you probalby do) then answer these questions:


Do TB and QoT gain less DPS from DPS items than other DGs?

If so, how?

Do the currently strong DGs do more or less magic damage than QoT and TB? EXPLAIN.

I'm not ignoring you. And it's not that TB and QoT gain less DPS from DPS items it's the fact that they can't get those items so I thought that this could increase their DPS without completely destroying their image. Buffing caster's directly is a bad idea because TB and QoT scale very well up until level 15 or so and then fall behind drastically. Buffing them directly eliminates the idea of them being a caster and they just become another one of the damage dealers.

Big deal if the highest damage dealers do most of their damage in spell damage. Once you hit level 20 thats capped though and those high damage dealers switch to auto-attack. Which QoT normally can't do because she's too busy getting mana and health items to counter that damage. Its not the abilities or the demigods it's the focus of the items. This was intended to make the focus of the items favor caster's a little more than they do right now in the endgame items.

The whole point is that UB doesn't have to interrupt his auto attack to use his abilities while TB and QoT do. QoT to stay alive needs to be in closed form and that screws her open form moves. Now if bramble shield lasted longer she could get out a ground spikes that could be devastating besides just getting blasted to pieces. TB has to wait to cast most of his abilities due to cast time which RESETS the auto attack time and it interrupts it for the cast time. This is where the problems are incured not in the numbers.

Yeah those are numbers I said. But those numbers can be changed. They weren't set in stone and it was just used to get my point across. GPG would need to do testing to figure out the numbers. I really don't care what the number end up as as long as they work but using numbers to simulate who would win in a game situation wouldn't work. So you bringing in numbers is totally irrelevent to me bringing in numbers. You have to realize that ooze slows attack speed of the enemy so thats not what TB would be doing. You can't put that into the numbers though because there are always things you can't control.

Inspirational flame sure is a good item but by level 15 TB starts to fall behind so that money saved just goes into another health item so the problem isn't solved. Fire torchbearer is known for his fragile nature so why get a damage item and die that much faster when you could fix it by adding a health item and being able to get off that fireball that now instead of doing 1300 damage which is far more than any ONE damage item is going to get you in the heat of battle.

And if you agree it's the items that the whole point of my post. To make it so those Demigods who don't have the same ability to stack those items still get their damage potential form other sources.

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November 6, 2009 6:25:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

About regulus mines. I really dont like idea of nerfing them

-They are not instat cast and can be interupted

-you can walk around them

-u can wait for your minons or creeps to walk thru them

- u can use cloak of night, wrapstone, 10k artefact, oak shield, qot shield, erebus batswarm to avoid them

-once u get past mines regulus have only choice to run

I would only agree to nerf them tiny bit if DEAD EYE skill would be replaced with new one more usefull skill.

there is no doubt now that Hp stacked oozing or hybrid beast is the best build mid to late game.  But ranged demigods are the best counter to it. Qot can snare, reduce his armor, heal herself by mulching schlambers, negate his damage with shield. TB only with rain of ice at level 10 slow his attack speed by 40% at lvl 15 adds also 75% reduction in Hp and Mana regen - STILL staying out of range of his mele attack. dont forget about his passive aura -7% to movement, -15% to attack speed, 9 mana per second.

At level 5 fire&ice Tb can do 1500 dmg +10% slow attack speed. Plus either +5% Attack Speed. +5% Movement Speed for allies or -3% to attack and movement speed for enemies

If we consider levels 1-7 as early game TB in my eyes is is ultimate early game demigod.

Lets not forget that in 95% of games played on default setting u wont even dream about ashkandor. 95% of game u either get cloak of flames or mageslayer if your enemies didnt concede yet or ur giants destroyed citadel

 

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