New overlays and premades – TAKE THAT YOU PREMADE JERKS!

A pacov rant

By on September 29, 2009 10:52:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

pacov

Join Date 02/2008
+183

This has been talked about in other places, but I wanted to add my two cents as it’s an issue that will continue to impact the community for some time.  If you have the time to read this and an open mind, please humor me by reading this post. 

 

1st – we're getting some new overlay features sometime in the next week or so (http://forums.demigodthegame.com/365437).  If things work as advertised, we’ll see some additional information in game including games started/completed, won/lost, and familiarity with other players.  Brad’s been pretty clear that indentifying players that have played together before is important to him (Frogboy:  “I just got stomped by one too many premades”) and I’d wager, his opinion is pretty similar to new players and MANY puggers. 

 

There’s a phrase I keep hearing over and over and it’s a simple one:  premades are fine IF.  IF they put PREMADE in their title, IF they only play other premades, IF they will break up their premade to make a more balanced game.  Here are some loose definitions of premade and pug so we are all a little closer to being on the same page: 

 

Premade – a team that is made in advance.  Some people go to extremes and call it a premade if you’ve simply played a few games with a set group of people.  Others only consider a premade a team that typically plays together.  Some would even call you a premade if you and 1 buddy play a 4v4 on the same team.  It's a term that is used in Demigod because apparently a special word is needed to describe a team in a team based game.  If you play with the same group of people, you are not a team, you are a premade.    

 

PUG – Individuals who play pick up games or games where they don’t have a set team.  There are degrees with this as well.  Some would indicate you are NOT a pugger if you play several games with an individual on the same team.  Most consider you a Pugger AS LONG AS you are not in a premade. 

 

The definitions don't really matter much in the end, as premades are generalized and then put in the box of premades are fine IF.  We don't hear too much along the lines of pugger's are fine IF.  They are just fine and need someone to make sure they aren't abused by premades.  And if they get a chance to pass some abuse onto premades, then well... they had it coming for all the PUG stomps (I'm starting the puggers are fine IF list tonight btw). 

 

The biggest complaint people seem to have about premades are PUG stomps.  The definition varies on PUG stomps as well.  Some would call it a PUG stomp if the teams were even slightly imbalanced.  In the extreme (what almost always occurs) they consider any premade game against Pugs imbalanced (unless they win).  The other extreme of PUG STOMPS is if the premade team maliciously fights only new players to the game.   PUG stomps are pretty much a negative term regardless of your meaning, which makes it is easier to vilify premades if they do anything other than premade vs premade games (premades are fine IF). 

 

To paint a clear picture of how puggers intentionally grief premade teams (because its justified, of course, because premades are fine IF BLANK.  Go against their rules and it's ok for them to act like a jerk), see the following list. 

 

Exciting ways to grief premades

·         Join their game.  Wait until its full.  In chat, write, fing premade and leave (see picks of dielan and chemdude8 doing their version of this tonight 9/29/2009 - keeping the world safe for new players)

·         If you start losing a game or even die once, ask "premade?" in chat (as in the only possibility YOU could have been killed was if you were up against a premade).

·         Join a lobby that's full.  Ask the premade to rebalance the game because you just showed up. 

·         Accuse every premade team you know of PUG stomping.  Don't look into it at all as there is no need.   (http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&tab=popular&show=details&id=96864 - see the comments for another example of someone doing the same thing)

·         You've been victimized by every premade that ever existed - make sure they know it.  FIND A WAY!

 

And last, for those of you not in a premade, I doubt you understand this all that well, so I'll explain the other side of things that you apparently don't see or don't care to see.  It's the part that you don't get that enables you to act like a complete jerk and try to ruin other people's experience. 

 

People in a premade play together because they like playing together.  You can often have more competitive games by using voice chat (a feature that obviously should be in the game IMO) and by playing together often with the same group of people.  I am a great individual player, but am substantially better by playing with people I know because I can count on a shield or a heal or a stun at the right time.  Good players will do that for you sometimes.  A good premade will do that for you most of the time.  It's not cheating.  Its playing the game the way it's actually MEANT to played (a team playing a team game).  My premade has over 10 people in it.  We all play together from time to time.  I've played with some over 100 games and some 3-5 games.  I try to play a little every night when I can. 

 

I accept challenges from other premades and search when out of game for premades to play against.  When there is not a premade available, I do not wait around 30 minutes for a game.  I host a game or someone in my premade hosts a game.  I have hosted premade specific games and if no one joins after 5 minutes, host a game that is less descriptive so more people might join.  You can call that deceitful, but I call it trying to get a game going because I enjoy playing demigod. 

 

Why don't you try hosting a 5v5 premade only lobby and let me know how long it takes to fill up for you?  Just wait it out.   What's that?  10 minutes have gone by and your lobby is completely empty?  Why not try a 4v4 premade and tell one of your buds to take a hike?  Oh, you tried that too and your lobby is still empty?  You'd rather just get a game going instead of playing the exciting lobby game?  Well, sorry, you're a jerk.  You should wait it out.  Especially if you want to play with your friends.  That's only ok if you don't play with your friends all of the time. 

 

Anyway, I also often break off my from my premade just to do PUG only games and even then I often have people jump in and accuse whoever joined my team of being a premade.  Which often causes whoever is in my lobby to leave. 

 

So, that's all I have to say about this for a whole 5 minutes.  You may have a problem with premades but I think you should take a break from busting their chops.  Now.   Consider going after people that actually deserve grief.  Belier and Apika are still around exploiting the shite out of the sytem.  Our ladder rank #1 guy still playing in Pantheon games against AI only.  And I still play on a team and Pug from time to time.  Get your priorites right at least. 

 

And now for a few of the people who have righted wrongs today by busting up games I've been in that were not labeled to their specifications, thereby justifying their poor behavior FTW! 

 

 

Waiting for about 4 minutes after Dielan joined, called premade when the lobby was full and immediately quit. 

 

 

 

 

We had a game up, people joined, chemdude joined, he did his premade cheer and successfully emptied our full lobby.  So, we got to wait an additional 10 minutes for it to fill back up. 

Locked Post 95 Replies +1 Karma
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
CallTheVoid
September 30, 2009 6:33:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Good thread as usual pacov.

Personally, and I think many agrees with me when I say that I like to win. It is not very fun to win a game that wasn't even though IMO. Neither is it very fun to loose a game that was totally uneven and you just got "stomped". I think this has happened to many players and this is probably why they despise premades so much.

I think many players also don't want to play against premade because they are afraid that their rank will decrease. Or their winning% will be lowered and they can't get into PRO games anymore since some poeple acctually check their stats. They are justified to not play against premade if they don't want to. However, if they cannot ask that themselves it is their own fault since adding "premade" in the title will scare everybody away. For this to work the premade obviously have to be honest, something many aren't.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 30, 2009 6:36:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

WARNING - LOTS OF TEXT INCOMING

I think I should've said that...

 for aviper as well.  Thanks for that post.  As far as history on me, I started out in demigod as pugger and played 271 games like that before I started to get into a team with Kassuam and Kokujin.  So, I know the type of pain that happens with pugging and not knowing who you're going to get.  Your post reminded me quite a bit of that and gave me a better frame of reference.

I'm not sure if its in direct response to this thread or not, but I've played 5 games today:  1 was a PUG that I was willing to balance and the remaining 4 were all premade games (with PREMADE in the title) that were filled up inside of 6 minutes each.  I'm looking forward to seeing the overlay as I don't check stats that often anymore as I know most of the players.  This should make balancing much easier and I'm willing to do so. 

What I'd like to do for the community is to help people who actually do want to play games using voice chat get together.  To that end, I'll be hosting some XvX VENT BAL games soon.  These will be open games where I WILL balance the teams and everyone will be required to at least be listening in on a vent server if they want to participate.  These games will likely spend a little more time in the lobby while people get setup, but I'm willing to put some time into this.  If you'd like to give it a shot, see reply #61 above for instructions on getting vent and the server info. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 30, 2009 6:50:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,

I'm not sure what is so confusing about the concept of getting frustrated because you want to get a game in, have someone empty out your lobby, then having to wait another 10 minutes for a game.  That sound pleasant?  That's shite behavior.  And see below regarding my premade breaking off and playing each other.  Or see my game list for just the last 20 games.  5 of them were premades based on availability.  I can't speak for all teams, but I get in premade matches when its possible, win or lose. 
I PUG mostly and it takes me 10-20 minutes to feel up...Actually after you left yesterday I had to wait another 30. I don't know why people don't like me .

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 30, 2009 6:53:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

There will be times when I hop in a lobby, make a comment like "ugh, premade", and leave.  This is generally after I check the stats for both teams and the type of game is not self-evident from the title.  If a premade is not kicking noobs on the other team, it is apparent to me they are just out for stomping.  For instance, if the premade team has 5 members with a 80%+ win record and the 4 PUG'rs are all sitting at under 30%, you can't call that anything other than a PUG stomp.  The premade is clearly exploiting the PUG'rs and I don't have much sympathy for them.

I understand the frustration in trying to get a game with your buddies.  I have the same difficulty with my 2 man premade.  All the premade games seem to be 3s so we have a hard time finding a decent game.  That said, PUGrs have a right to enjoy the game too, and misleading them in order to fulfill your pug stomp just doesn't seem right to me. 

Quoting CosMoe,
Whenever I see the lobby with at least 2 premades who won't fight each other even though they'd chosen the same map etc. I get the feeling that most premades only want to PuG stomp.

There is of course a bit of this, but there are several other factors.  First, not all premades are created equal.  Some are really good and some are really bad.  So even if two premades are on at the same time does not mean they are going to have a competive game.  Second not all premades are 3mans.  One of those "premade" games may be a 2man premade and one PUGr while the other premade game is a 3man premade.  Third, it's hard to get everyone into the same lobby.  A PUGr may take that third slot before your 3rd person gets in.  You can work it out in the lobby, but it can be a real pain.  You may have noticed that the lobby crashes with some frequency and does not update well when people move slots.  Finally, premades do not always recognize other premades.  So even if there is another premade game up, you may not know it.  PUGrs know all the premades because they avoid them, but premades host their own games so they don't need to look anyone up. 

As I have stated in every thread discussing this, we really need a working matchmaking service that includes teams.  I'd gladly take my 2man premade against a 3man premade if I had a competent PUG player.  In custom games, I always end up with a PUG player that has a 1-99 record.  Doesn't matter that I am a premade, we are going to get stomped because of that 3rd person.  Give me a matchmaker that will give me a PUGr with a 60% win rate and I'll play.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 30, 2009 11:02:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting aviper9,
lots of words that I don't want to spam the boards by quoting

Yes, this is true. However, unless I convinced m y friend to buy this game with me, every single player here USED TO BE A PUG. I've been there (and, yes, I still pug). We all know what it is like, and how unenjoyable it is to have a feeder on my team... hence why you find friends, who you know don't feed, and then play with them. Now you no longer have a feeder...

People who play premade are not some sort of different type of human species. We used to pug too... Many still do.

 

--

Regards to premades hosting lots of games instead of joining eachothers':

1) People know me, they know I have a reputable hosting record, that I give good games, that I'm not a dick, that I will swap third-men if they want, or kick a player so that a better player can come in, and takes losing with a grain of salt. People enjoy playing with me (remember, I pug a lot. Plenty of people have seen me around over time), so they join my games, they fill up fast. (well as fast as any does in this game).

That is why I host. Plus, it's easier to coordinate with your premade or pug-friends-who-you-are-playing-a-few-games-with since the in-game chat sucks. It's a simple 'join my game'.

2) It's not a guarenteed game. If I see a 4/6 I know I can't join... even if I do, I DO get kicked by the 'evil pug stomping premades' from time to time. At least sometimes

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 1, 2009 8:13:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Here is a funny premade story!

My brother who lives at another place, and I will go to same games often. We VS each other pretty much the same as we team up.....

When we are together on same team we seem to lose more than win.

When we play in other games (without the other in) we seem to win....

Basically we are both better players WITHOUT each other as our strategy differs quite a bit, and we spend most of the game lecturing each other on how to play!

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 1, 2009 8:52:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Everything in Pacov's OP is the solid gold truth.  Speaking for my premade (now defunct) team, this is exactly what happened to us.  Everything from griefing to empty lobbies.

 

-- Tukulis

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 2, 2009 1:30:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'll add that today, in every game I've played, my labels have been crystal clear and I've been clear in game as well (for instance, my tournament practice games I told everyone in the lobby we're a premade but shite on cata... sadly true).  Doing my part to help out

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 2, 2009 1:44:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So... speaking of premades.... do you ever watch the server stats and wait until there's 3 or 4 light in Pantheon queue, and then you and your buddies all join at that moment as forces of dark?

It works, I'm guilty.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 2, 2009 2:01:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Lukas_A_79,
So... speaking of premades.... do you ever watch the server stats and wait until there's 3 or 4 light in Pantheon queue, and then you and your buddies all join at that moment as forces of dark?

It works, I'm guilty.

I have done that in the past, but don't really like abusing the system.  I still can't figure out why SD doesn't simply hide the connect screen in pantheon games... that pretty much removes any temptation instantly (doubt they've read past the OP anyway here - it is a wordy thread after all).  Then at least the automatch might have a little bit of a chance. 

Also, I haven't hosted any XvX Vent Bal games yet, but I did get one player on a vent with me so far for a pug, so I'm slowly adding to people who use voice chat.  I think I'll be hosting some of those XvX Vent Bal games this weekend and I'll probably be using ready to play to facilitate them.  If you don't have ready to play yet, sign up for the beta (it's free) and I'll hit you up with an invite for one of those games.  You'll need ventrilo installed.  See below again for details.  The bottom line is if you are willing to take 5-10 minutes to set up vent, you'll at least be able to hear other people speak in the games I'll be hosting (eg if you don't have a mic).

 

Here's all the info you need on getting ventrillo up and running along with a public dg server (http://forums.demigodthegame.com/362211/ thanks go out to CallTheVoid). 

Here is where you can download the client (its free): http://www.ventrilo.com/download.php

Here are instructions on how to use ventrilo to connect to a server:  http://www.ventrilo.com/setup.php

And here's the needed server info: 

Sever name:  chi05.hurricanehost.com
Port:  4636

 

The games will require you to join the vent server above (or you will be kicked) and I will handle balancing for fair matches.  If you see any of my XvX Vent Bal games and are willing to give voice chat a shot, please join them if you see them.  I'll probably be doing 3v3 or 4v4 games.  Looking forward to meeting some of you and getting to play on the same side with you as well. 

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 2, 2009 2:01:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'll add that today, in every game I've played, my labels have been crystal clear and I've been clear in game as well (for instance, my tournament practice games I told everyone in the lobby we're a premade but shite on cata... sadly true).  Doing my part to help out 

If that was you on a BAD day, I pray I don't find you in an arena you and your team are good in! That said, I'll look for you Tuesday for a rematch when I have my team.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 2, 2009 2:07:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If that was you on a BAD day, I pray I don't find you in an arena you and your team are good in! That said, I'll look for you Tuesday for a rematch when I have my team.

Great!  Thanks for playing with me tonight even though your didn't have you buddies.  Message me on Tuesday and I'll do my best to make sure we get at least 1 game in!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 2, 2009 3:14:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I got the ventrillo installed man, I'll keep an eye out for those xvx vent bal games.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 2, 2009 3:16:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I got the ventrillo installed man, I'll keep an eye out for those xvx vent bal games.

Cool!  Add me as a friend in game as well and I'll send you a message when the games are going up! 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
October 3, 2009 2:59:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/365726

I've started hosting and playing in XvX Vent bal games.  See link for more details.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 18, 2011 12:04:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well - tis a necro.  You might enjoy seeing what DG was like back in Oct 2009.  If not, please ignore me and move along

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 18, 2011 1:53:24 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

evil premades !

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 18, 2011 3:24:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I actually prefer playing against premades than some random players... But I doubt that I have encountered many... Would be more challenging to play against them...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 18, 2011 5:53:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Heh, fun times.

 

If you look back through my stats, you'll see that the majority of my matches are 'premades' of me and another, with a third varying between 'also known to us' and pugger. With a lot of wins, too often against players with very few games played. Except... there's a reason the games are all called things like "ULTIMATE PRO". And we gladly said we were premade, as playing against new players as veterans was just as unfun for us.

 

Why did I do premade? Well, due to old RL injuries, I can't manage keyboard shortcuts for consumables, limiting me to just abilities. In  competitive play, that basically meant I used consumables about... never. This also meant my builds had to be very different than the norm, and I also specialized in support builds. So it was a massive advantage to have players who knew my playstyle on my team. On top of all this, I have no mic.

Result was that I was probably the only top tier player who pretty much was guaranteed to fail on a pug team... and never use consumables.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 18, 2011 8:20:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

  Why I never played with/against you...

And I hate those players who were against premades... What if I  + friend want to play together? Need to play in different teams? Two premade noobs are weaker than any pug mids anyway

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108432  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000406   Page Render Time:

Stardock Magazine | Register | Online Privacy Policy | Terms of Use

Copyright © 2016 Stardock Entertainment and Gas Powered Games. Demigod is a trademark of Gas Powered Games. All rights reserved. All other trademarks and copyrights are the properties of their respective owners. Windows, the Windows Vista Start button and Xbox 360 are trademarks of the Microsoft group of companies, and 'Games for Windows' and the Windows Vista Start button logo are used under license from Microsoft. © 2012 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. All rights reserved. AMD, the AMD Arrow logo and combinations thereof are trademarks of Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.