Balance: Pro Vs Casual Issues

By on September 7, 2009 4:55:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thundercles

Join Date 04/2009
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I used to use Cloak Of Night as a favor item because I thought, that with certain demigods, it was on par with Blood of the Fallen as a favor item and a lot more fun to play with.  You see, I only play this game casually and playing alongside allies of varying skill levels against opponents of varying skill levels, you don't always get an accurate assessment of what the best strategy is.  Oak is my alternate alternate demigod so I'm not great with him, but there was this one game against competent opponents where I just got on a roll.  Someone would choose to run a second too late and (blink)-pent-whack-whack and regs dead.  I buy more gear, and to make a short story long, we're dominating by the end of the game even though one guy on my team dced early, because I'm pretty much holding my own against the entire enemy team... all because of Cloak Of Night getting me early kills!

Then I played some really good players one game where I got my ass handed to me, and one of the players on my team remarked about my "interesting" choice in favor item.  Apparently, at an advanced level of play the strategies for this game narrow a lot (For instance, always always always choose BloodOTF everytime, just in case there are othes out there who didn't know) and it just doesn't seem like anyone at Stardock and GPG really realizes it.  I thought before that there were so many useless items because all the effort was rightly going into getting rid of bugs, exploits, and connection issues.  Now, after reading something that Frogboy said and watching his grudge match with the PCG boys, it makes me wonder if the people in charge of balancing (Yes, I know that would be GPG, not Stardock) this game might not realize that theres even a problem.

"Demigod isn't just an outstanding game, but is one of the best strategy games thats been released for online play." -Frogboy

Well... yeah, its a lot of fun and at the beginner to intermediate level its a blast to play with lots of different strategies you can use... but when the level of play gets high enough, you really don't have many choices on which demigod to play, and how to play them.  I'm not sure someone who thinks you should ever buy a (If you happen to read this Frogboy, please understand I don't mean that in any sort of malicious manner) Vinling Helmet can really understand that.  Maybe some day the folks at GPG and Stardock will be able to see all the replays of the best players and might notice that all their matches are Oak/UB/LE vs Sed/UB/LE or Oak/UB/LE vs Sed/UB/Oak and realize they might need to put a little more effort into making every item and other Demigods more viable... otherwise, I don't see this game having as long a life as I'd like it to.

[Edit 9/7/09] Okay, I exagerated about Blood Of The Fallen and had no business commenting on a level of competion of which I'm not a part of.  My appologies.  Still think I make some excellent points otherwise...

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September 7, 2009 5:17:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In any game, there will always be a best combo. World of Warcraft has had its arena combos, Team Fortress 2 has a standard competitive configuration and fighting games usually have their top 3 or so that get used all the time. No matter what, this will always happen.

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September 7, 2009 5:19:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think you make some interesting points here.  Absolutely, I agree with you that there remain balance issues with the game.  Certain demigods (Rook, QoT) need some buffs and many items need slight adjustments (lower cost, stronger effects) to make them more valuable and competitive. 

Just as a quick example:  I can look at the Armor items and see a use for every single one.  In fact, I think I've used all of them at one point or another in various games and thought them useful.  But the same cannot be said for the Helms, or Trinkets, or Artifacts for that matter (not that the Artifacts aren't all useful, just that a couple seem to be used far more often than others). 

But really, what I wanted to say was that balance is a slow and careful process that definitely takes time, and involves the entire community of players.  DG has only been out for a few months, and while that may seem like an eternity to those who play daily, I tend towards more conservatism in the whole "nerf-this" "buff-that" anger that infests the player-base with odd regularity.

I hope that 1.2 makes some balance changes that we can all agree on and that players continue to offer constructive feedback about exploits and tricks that the developers just didn't have enough time and play-experience to predict would occur (e.g. Horn of Battle).

I'm also hoping that by removing Custom games from any sort of ranking system (maybe not now, but one day soon), players will be more willing to experiment with different DG and item builds.  Of course, there's always the competitive spirit to drive people to always want to win, and for that, we definitely need some additional balancing.

 

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September 7, 2009 5:27:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Cloak of the Night is a viable Favor Item for higher-level matches if you have a very good Regulus on your team and you have any sort of fast ranged nuke (Oak can penitence to make a snipe deal 16% more damage, even...).

BotF is excellent for one thing:

- Level 1-3 lane control

--

Once you get better items or simply abilities Blood of the Fallen has a less notible effects as Cloak of the Night gets more and more noticable as people start speed/snare stacking and nukes become more effective.

That said, Level 1-3 lane control IS a big deal... on Cataract. If you play more maps, on maps with less important flags (Levi, Exile if each team holds one crystal) then it becomes a little less important. This means you have to 4v4 though, which isn't quite as popular I've noticed.

It amazes me how Cataract is the most popular map when it's not even balanced... at all.

--

Viking Helmet is awesome on Leviathan as a Queen. Or on Exile if you're on the mana-side.

--

Hit me up sometime, I've been playing a lot recently. I know you're a good player when you have a decent team... since 80% of the time you are stuck with a horrible, horrible team .

 

--

Anyway, I'm not in the top 1000 in players, not at all, so I'm still a tier or two away from a 'true-blue-pro'. So maybe I don't have a perfect grasp of the game. But there still are higher-level strategy choices... and those are what make you win sometimes Doing something different, unexpected.

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September 7, 2009 5:46:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

 

  U Sir r right (the OP). Can't add anything else. And thats why "elitist" players ask to balance the game on the competitive lvl of play and not on the casual lvl. Well, lets hope things change in the future

 

Quoting abuggeredhedgie,
Cloak of the Night is a viable Favor Item for higher-level matches if you have a very good Regulus on your team and you have any sort of fast ranged nuke (Oak can penitence to make a snipe deal 16% more damage, even...).

BotF is excellent for one thing:

I stop reading at this point. The OP is talking about competitive lvl of play, not pubstomp. There is no good Regulus there, evenless a Cloack of the Night Regulus there.

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September 7, 2009 6:03:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Personally, I can only say that if v1.2 does not improve the balance of the game (which should be as easy as editing a .lua file and changing the numbers for mana/gold/cooldown cost; please correct me if I'm wrong) then I will stop playing Shield Support Queen. Although I can bash PuGs with this build I want to be able to play real competitive matches with the only alternative support Demigod to Sedna. I already quit the 1vs1 ESL ladder because it's exclusively a Minion Erebus ladder right now.

GPG/Stardock, if you do not care that much or you think everything is balanced properly (which it is, but only to 95%), please also allow balance mods.

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September 7, 2009 7:38:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Apparently, at an advanced level of play the strategies for this game narrow a lot (For instance, always always always choose BloodOTF everytime

who ever told you that is a noob. although if the people at the highest level are choosing the same items over and over again, there is something wrong with the games mechanics.

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September 7, 2009 7:41:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

When did cloak of night become worse than BotF? Personally, I always looked at it the other way and I certainly played high level games. Early on you will be disadvantaged yes, once a few items are acquired however you have the better item because it provides something you can't purchase that functions as both a finisher and an escape mechanism.

(I played Sedna mostly.)

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September 7, 2009 8:04:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Personally I think the problem is rank 1 monk idols, not BotF itself.

Regardless even in high level matches I still see a good selection of items. BotF may be the most popular, but others have their strong points, albeit not on all maps.

I would say that for anyone but UB the Staff of Renewal is superior to BotF, on Leviathan the Cape of Plentiful Mana is superior situationally, Heaven's Wrath gets use on the larger maps, etc. etc.

There is variety, but if you wanted even more I think even a modest nerf like dropping BotF to 700 or 650 HP would be sufficient.

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September 7, 2009 8:17:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Nucleus Accumbens,
But really, what I wanted to say was that balance is a slow and careful process that definitely takes time(...). 

Although it sounds like a very sensible statement, I actually disagree.
We're not talking about Chess here. DG won't last for centuries. DG will never reach a perfect balance, and striving for it is an illusion.
Hey, even Chess isn't balanced : the tiny advantage White has (plays first) is enough that at Grandmaster level, White plays for the win, Black plays for the draw.

DG might be a dead game in one year's time, and certainly shall be in 5 years. A slow, careful approach is not what's needed here. We need a fast and dynamic approach. As soon as a balance issue is spotted, make changes. Real changes (not a few % here and there, a slight correction to price tags). Bold changes.

The initial balance state of the game was admirable, but flaws were likely to show after a few weeks, and bound to after a few months. They need to be corrected, without fear of creating new unbalances in the process, because there will be new unbalances no matter what.

Change the rules.
Often.

That's how you can keep the game alive longer.

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September 7, 2009 9:47:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Wyatan,


The initial balance state of the game was admirable, but flaws were likely to show after a few weeks, and bound to after a few months. They need to be corrected, without fear of creating new unbalances in the process, because there will be new unbalances no matter what.

Change the rules.
Often.

That's how you can keep the game alive longer.

I'm with you.  Why worry about creating new imbalances by getting rid of old ones?  If anything it seems like that would freshen the game up by making people think up new ways to win.  Also, I remember how freaked out people were when Bite was overnerfed.  A shame how that made the few people who still play Erebus nowadays <--sarcasm--> never use bite anymore.

Quoting Obscenitor,
Personally I think the problem is rank 1 monk idols, not BotF itself.

Regardless even in high level matches I still see a good selection of items. BotF may be the most popular, but others have their strong points, albeit not on all maps.

I would say that for anyone but UB the Staff of Renewal is superior to BotF, on Leviathan the Cape of Plentiful Mana is superior situationally, Heaven's Wrath gets use on the larger maps, etc. etc.

There is variety, but if you wanted even more I think even a modest nerf like dropping BotF to 700 or 650 HP would be sufficient.

Seems like most of those alternate favor items are assassin only.  My original post wasn't very clear, but I meant the Monk/BloodOTF combos early/mid game dominance.  I'm probably not a good enough player to even be commenting on this subject.  All I know, is the few times I've been in games with really good players, I could hold my own a lot better with BotF which coincidentally was what they all seemed to be using if they were playing generals.  When I had cloak, all I used it for was to blink away to safety cause I couldn't hang near the fight.

I know you have an extremely effective late game with Rook using staff of renewal.  If it works for you in top level games, then right on.

Quoting abuggeredhedgie,
Cloak of the Night is a viable Favor Item for higher-level matches if you have a very good Regulus on your team and you have any sort of fast ranged nuke (Oak can penitence to make a snipe deal 16% more damage, even...).

BotF is excellent for one thing:

- Level 1-3 lane control

Once you get better items or simply abilities Blood of the Fallen has a less notible effects as Cloak of the Night gets more and more noticable as people start speed/snare stacking and nukes become more effective.

That said, Level 1-3 lane control IS a big deal... on Cataract. If you play more maps, on maps with less important flags (Levi, Exile if each team holds one crystal) then it becomes a little less important. This means you have to 4v4 though, which isn't quite as popular I've noticed.

It amazes me how Cataract is the most popular map when it's not even balanced... at all.

--

Viking Helmet is awesome on Leviathan as a Queen. Or on Exile if you're on the mana-side.

I was referring to the video of SD vs PCG.  I thought I saw Frogboy buying Vinling Helmet on Cataract but I must have been mistaken cause I've played with him before and he seems like he knows how to play the game pretty well. 

I crunched the numbers though, and Vinling ain't that great even on Leviathan.  Am I missing something?  Once you have Plenor (which I assume you would already have, since its better and costs half as much) you're almost always better off by getting Vlemish.  I mean, I guess if you were a level 10+ TB who had Essence of Magic it would get you slightly more mana per sec but it would still be more expensive.  Did you mean in addition to the Plenor/Vlemish combo?  Cause thats a lot of mana slots...

Quoting RapierX,
When did cloak of night become worse than BotF? Personally, I always looked at it the other way and I certainly played high level games. Early on you will be disadvantaged yes, once a few items are acquired however you have the better item because it provides something you can't purchase that functions as both a finisher and an escape mechanism.

(I played Sedna mostly.)

Sedna seems so dominant early game maybe she's the exception.  Or more likely, I just don't know what I'm talking about.

You're right that Cloak is better late game, but try playing with other generals and see how fun it is getting pushed off the lane over and over, and always losing fights over flags cause the other guy has 60% more HP than you (which means his monks are healing for 60% more as well) and see if you're using your Cloak more as a finisher or an escape mechanism later in the game.  In my experience, its been the latter.

 

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September 8, 2009 1:09:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Isnt that how things always are at the top though? Winning teams stick to winning strategies and if that Strat is UB + Sed + Rook/Ere/Oak they're probably going to stick with that. As for Favor Items there are plenty of different strategies and builds to use, though i do agree early game BotF is a dominate item, i feel it loses its value as it does not maintain its advantage as skills allow for massive amounts of DPS though, in competitive games early flag controll usually is all it takes to make the difference between a win or a loss.

Tough to say, i dont think i've played on enough good teams vs equally matched teams, its usually lopsided one way or the other. On top of that theres always giong to be gaps in player skills. I would not put myself in the same bracket as a Shade, Pacov, WiP, or Ivorgor and i dont consider myself a half bad player, its just night and day how far ahead some people are and whatever changes are made they'll continue to learn the system better than average players and that gap will always remain.

So its really a damned if you do, damned if you dont sort of thing. And Cosmo everyone who plays has played or wants to play QoT wants her to get some sort of buff, maybe if shield worked more like a sigil that is damage is also mitigated by armor she'd be of more use, but i couldnt say that would trully make the difference in a high level game i guess you'd be the guy SD should ask about that.

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September 8, 2009 3:27:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thundercles,


Quoting abuggeredhedgie,
reply 3
Cloak of the Night is a viable Favor Item for higher-level matches if you have a very good Regulus on your team and you have any sort of fast ranged nuke (Oak can penitence to make a snipe deal 16% more damage, even...).

BotF is excellent for one thing:

- Level 1-3 lane control

Once you get better items or simply abilities Blood of the Fallen has a less notible effects as Cloak of the Night gets more and more noticable as people start speed/snare stacking and nukes become more effective.

That said, Level 1-3 lane control IS a big deal... on Cataract. If you play more maps, on maps with less important flags (Levi, Exile if each team holds one crystal) then it becomes a little less important. This means you have to 4v4 though, which isn't quite as popular I've noticed.

It amazes me how Cataract is the most popular map when it's not even balanced... at all.

--

Viking Helmet is awesome on Leviathan as a Queen. Or on Exile if you're on the mana-side.


I was referring to the video of SD vs PCG.  I thought I saw Frogboy buying Vinling Helmet on Cataract but I must have been mistaken cause I've played with him before and he seems like he knows how to play the game pretty well. 

I crunched the numbers though, and Vinling ain't that great even on Leviathan.  Am I missing something?  Once you have Plenor (which I assume you would already have, since its better and costs half as much) you're almost always better off by getting Vlemish.  I mean, I guess if you were a level 10+ TB who had Essence of Magic it would get you slightly more mana per sec but it would still be more expensive.  Did you mean in addition to the Plenor/Vlemish combo?  Cause thats a lot of mana slots...




Quoting RapierX,
reply 7
When did cloak of night become worse than BotF? Personally, I always looked at it the other way and I certainly played high level games. Early on you will be disadvantaged yes, once a few items are acquired however you have the better item because it provides something you can't purchase that functions as both a finisher and an escape mechanism.

(I played Sedna mostly.)


Sedna seems so dominant early game maybe she's the exception.  Or more likely, I just don't know what I'm talking about.

You're right that Cloak is better late game, but try playing with other generals and see how fun it is getting pushed off the lane over and over, and always losing fights over flags cause the other guy has 60% more HP than you (which means his monks are healing for 60% more as well) and see if you're using your Cloak more as a finisher or an escape mechanism later in the game.  In my experience, its been the latter.

 

My bad, I thought we were talking about the 1500g helm, not the 3300 g helm.

I've seen Erebus getting Cloak with some success. Oak and Queen... not so much. For Sedna, though, it becomes a nice utility. You can blink-heal, blink-pounce, blink-lock... etc. The monks don't keep us (bad) and there are other issues, but since Sedna is so powerful early game, and the small mana boost the cloak gives you == heals (roughly one heal, so that's a 600 hp extension, almost as good as Blood),

However, if you're using Cloak as a finisher, there is still something wrong with that. it's not a finisher, or any sole role. It's a utility ability that fulfills many uses (dodging Rook attacks, cancels snares, covering small ground fast, etc).

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September 8, 2009 8:14:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Bluntly

The gloves need fixed (I never use them)

The helms need fixed (I dont even know what some of them do)

The Blood of the Fallen item needs nerfed or to be more expensive. I dont care what you say BotF is just too good

That said my favourite items are all too expensive for me to use casually online

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September 8, 2009 8:36:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I consider myself as a good player and i usually never play BotF and take anklet instead. I just love being fast and have a free slot without need to buy boots of speed. The lack of HP at the beginning is not a problem at all, just buy Unbreable Boots after 1 or 2 minutes and ur fine.

 

 

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September 8, 2009 8:42:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting CosMoe,
Personally, I can only say that if v1.2 does not improve the balance of the game (which should be as easy as editing a .lua file and changing the numbers for mana/gold/cooldown cost; please correct me if I'm wrong) then I will stop playing Shield Support Queen. Although I can bash PuGs with this build I want to be able to play real competitive matches with the only alternative support Demigod to Sedna. I already quit the 1vs1 ESL ladder because it's exclusively a Minion Erebus ladder right now.

GPG/Stardock, if you do not care that much or you think everything is balanced properly (which it is, but only to 95%), please also allow balance mods.

 

We can build any mod we like. just get the ladder to force a certain balance mod to be used during competitive play.

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September 8, 2009 9:24:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I played another nameless game. I came back for a game of Demigod and made me realise the strengths this game has (I played one of my best games ever, where we came back from a first half bashing, caught up, then narrowly snatched the victory).

This game is very strategic.

The problems it faces is that it is very limited, for a beginner it seems like a big learning curve, however after about 1 month of play, most players will be aware what works and what doesn't.

Given the type of genre, I think this is a big weakness. Unlike pure strategy games, you cannot go into the depth of improving your game over time. This game has a very steep initial curve, then plateaus out, as the emphasis is closely on team work in small teams. Having a high APM in Demigod is no real advantage, it is pretty streamlined, there is no micro to take care of. You cannot really improve your skills through practising micro.

Part of the attraction of playing traditional strategy games, is that as an individual player you can practise and improve by using micro and advanced techniques, like dancing chars to avoid damage, combining abilities from different units or co-ordinating attacks in two different places. This game misses that to some extent, it would be nice if there were more options, I don't think we will see them though. The game has gone into a critical non-mass.

It is a nice looking game and I will still pop on for a game or two, especially with the new DGs, however, this game will unlikely become competitive. I don't feel there is enough depth in the mechanics to allow that. That will appeal to some players, I would imagine to the more casual community.

DG is a great intro to the emerging MOBA genre, however, it would need to significantly increase on it's depth of gameplay to become a big multiplayer hit. Perhaps with DG2 if they have made enough money on this release.

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September 8, 2009 9:24:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'd say that I have had an overall succesfull Demigod experience so far. I am not sure if I qualify as a pro ( ladder rank 229) 9k playtimes. But im pretty damn close.

 

I just wanted to say that I have never used BoF once. I run ammy teleportation on rook, anklet on erub, cloak of the night on qot, sedna, anklet oak, blade of the serpent on regulas, tb. and anklet or BoS on ub.

Think endgame with your favor item not early game. Though blood of the fallen is great the other favor items surpass it endgame in my experience, and lets be honest people ina  competitent match the game isnt ending til giants unless some team makes huge mistakes. Multiple times.

If you really need all that health early game to stay alive your doing something wrong.

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September 8, 2009 9:28:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I extensively use the Cloak of Night with my Shield Queen build and it has saved my life very, very often because QoT is so slow that practically every Demigod but the Rook can chase her. If the Rook gets Poisoned Arrows, even he will be faster.

Its mana regeneration (+4mana /sec) is enhanced by the closed mode mana regeneration bonus (+50% mana regeneration) and you can also use it to rarely get very nice teleport kills. On Crucible I also use it to quickly get to the gold flag in the beginning or to go back to the shop.

You can not use it to cancel snares and I was almost never fast enough to avoid Hammer Slams. I'm better at anticipating Slams and avoiding them by crawling around directly beneath the Rook.

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September 8, 2009 11:19:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

There is rarely an excuse for getting hit by a slam on Qot.

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September 8, 2009 11:29:24 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree there is some truth to the premise of this thread.  I don't agree with the specific example of BotF though.  I only have one build that uses that, which is my health stacking Sedna.  I want so much hp that I only need my priests healing me to keep going.  Outside of that there are so many better options depending on the DG you're playing.

There are still far to many useless items, and favor items in particular could use a going over.

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September 8, 2009 4:54:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I only use BotF on Oak,

Sedna and Erebus it is Pendent of Grace,

Rook, Beast, and TB it is BotS

Regulus is poisoned dagger or Heavens Wrath

Queen is Cloak of the night

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September 8, 2009 7:18:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ok, I concede that I'm prone to exageration and have no business commenting on the choice of favor items for top level players, since I don't  play those guys enough and am far away from their level.  Can we please forget about what I said about Blood Of The Fallen.  Apparently, it is not the primary choice of favor items for top players, just the only way I've personally found to stay competitive against them for the early game at least.

I still believe I have an excellent point in the overall balancing of the game and perhaps have hit upon the reason for it so hopefully we can talk about that instead.  So let me break it down:

-As the competition level in this game increases, your options for viable items and builds and some would say demigods diminish.  Some guy with 50 games under his belt picks the goggle favor item when playing with people with similar experience, I'm not sure its going to make that much of a difference.  IamKira plays Ivorgor using the goggles... ummm, ass handed to him on a silver platter is the expression that comes to mind.  Everyone agree, or is that just my theory?

-Frogboy and Stardock are not in charge of balancing this game.  GPG is but I don't know anyone who actually plays the game they developed online, maybe they do it ingognito so pricks like me won't use their gameplay as an example.  However, Stardock is this forum communities only bridge of communication about issues such as balance, so its interesting to hear Frogboy talk about their match with PCG and mention the key to Team PCG's victory being flag locks and map control.  When I watched the replay again and noticed Frogboys first mana item pickup was the Vinling Helmet, I thought to myself that would be a much better indication of why they lost.  Do the folks at GPG also think that Vinling Helmet is a usable item?  If so, I guess the game continues as is:  A lot of useless items and a few useless demigod skills, but still a lot of fun.

 

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September 9, 2009 12:39:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I only use BotF against teams with 3+ regs or while playing as an ooze beast.

 

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