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An idea for post v1.2

By on August 31, 2009 1:28:43 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

I’m thinking we should get rid of the “skirmish” mode.  Very few people use it and it only serves to divide the community.

Instead, Pantheon would become the focus of ranked games and help build a larger base of players for it.  But in order to do that, we have to deal with the problem of hyper-competitive people who quit games on start if they don’t get the person they want to play with.

So I was thinking that on pantheon games, once someone disconnected more than 3 times and it’s greater than 10% of the games in the first 5 minutes that those games would count as a loss for that player.  Same for custom games too.

What do you think?

+897 Karma | 65 Replies
August 31, 2009 1:34:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree!  This makes sense.

August 31, 2009 1:34:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Skirmish mode should definitely go.

August 31, 2009 1:37:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sounds fair to me.  I've only tried to skirmish a couple times.

August 31, 2009 1:41:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So I was thinking that on pantheon games, once someone disconnected more than 3 times and it’s greater than 10% of the games in the first 5 minutes that those games would count as a loss for that player.  Same for custom games too.

Absolutely.  Actually, it would be nice to have players' disconnection stats visible in the custom lobby before game start.

August 31, 2009 1:44:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Any updated ETA on 1.2 or some little pieces?

August 31, 2009 1:44:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Another step in the right direction.

August 31, 2009 1:46:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No objections here regarding counting things like that a loss.

Regarding skirmish mode... when I WAS doing alot of pantheon, I'd switch to skirmish when the pantheon ended.  Not sure if others do this as well.

August 31, 2009 1:46:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Word

August 31, 2009 1:51:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In ranked matches, if you quit, that should be counted as a loss.  Period.

In unranked matches, one can be more forgiving.  It would be nice though if there was a penalty for quitting even then.

August 31, 2009 1:59:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums


Instead, Pantheon would become the focus of ranked games...

But what about us who like to play ranked games with our friends? Make it so you can join as pair or trippels in that case and make it so that you will be put against an other 2+random/2+random or 3v3.

And make all critstate games show up on your gamelist so we can start track the guys doing that sh*t.

 

btw. LOVE the game! The only game that have made me stop playing WoW and I won't go back. Played it since USbeta

 

August 31, 2009 2:17:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,
No objections here regarding counting things like that a loss.

Regarding skirmish mode... when I WAS doing alot of pantheon, I'd switch to skirmish when the pantheon ended.  Not sure if others do this as well.

 

Yeah, if you're dropping skirmish I'd definately dramatically reduce the amount of time in between pantheon seasons, of coarse I'd do that anyway.  There are no rewards or bonuses for the side that wins, so it's pretty much irrelevant, I'd say start the new one 12 hours after the old one ends. 

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say pantheon would be the new ranked focus, does this mean that custom games would no longer be ranked?  I definately wouldn't do that until you have team vs team functionality in the game, you've already bumped this for modding, if you take away ranked custom games also people are going to find something else to play with their friends, and if they like that something else they probably won't be back.

August 31, 2009 2:30:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I am assuming "skirmish" is an online option? Sorry to sound dense, i mostly play single player and LOVE the game!! 

-Teal

 

 

August 31, 2009 2:32:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sorry for the thread-jack, but this is a serious problem (and 1.2 is out soon, I guess)!

 

Frogboy, Kyro, anyone: Please try this out.

As some of you might know I play QoT almost exclusively. Anyways, I'm actually laughing right now because until now I did never notice in the heat of the battle that I was summoning half-dead Shamblers (perhaps because my priests were healing them instantly). Oh man.

August 31, 2009 2:40:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I’m thinking we should get rid of the “skirmish” mode.  Very few people use it and it only serves to divide the community.

Instead, Pantheon would become the focus of ranked games and help build a larger base of players for it.  But in order to do that, we have to deal with the problem of hyper-competitive people who quit games on start if they don’t get the person they want to play with.

I don't like the phrase "Pantheon would become the focus of ranked games".  In my opinion, Custom is the focus of ranked games at this time.  I see this as the case for two main reasons.  First, there is no artifical barrier between lightside and darkside.  I think the light side/dark side seperation is a fun idea, and creates some unusual matchups.  However, I don't really think it should be the basis of someone's individual ranking.  Second, Pantheon is random.  Your team composition is random both in players and in Demigods.  Again, I don't feel this is intrinsically bad, but I don't consider it "Ranked" play.

The problem with this is that a good player can not win with a bad team.  This is simply the nature of Demigod.  It is a team oriented game.  I can't put words in anyone's mouth, but I feel that it was designed to be played as a team game.  Should Pantheon become the focus of ranked games, the team play aspect is lost.  You can no longer chose your demigod based on what would work well with your team mates.  In most cases, random people do not play well as a team for various reasons. 

I consider myself a competitive player.  I like to win.  I like to improve my gameplay.  I enjoy being on a team and improving my team gameplay.  Losing because I was outplayed is an opportunity for learning.  Losing because my team mates played poorly is something completely different (and for me, terribly frustrating).  I can't learn from this, and I often can't make them play better.  I enjoy helping others get better, but I want to do this in an unranked environment.

Also, sometimes I like to mess around with silly builds like my "all gloves all the time" regulus build, or fool around with extreme custom game options (high gold, high towers, etc).  I think there's room for both types of play in Demigod.  Due to this, I think that there should be two ladders.  One that is exclusively for Pantheon and one that is exclusively for Custom.  Would this be hard to implement, I have no idea.  I would also like to see the option to play unranked Custom matches for fun (perhaps this could come at the same time as mods).

I feel that what people want when it comes to ranking and experience and such is balance and fairness.  They want to know that their rank is a true representation of their skill.  They want to know that the rank shown for an opponent is a true representation of their opponent's skill as well.  When the random number generator is seen as having a significant influence in the outcome for a match (random players, random DG teaming), I don't feel anyone gets what they want.  This is also, I feel, why there is so much friction within the community.

So I was thinking that on pantheon games, once someone disconnected more than 3 times and it’s greater than 10% of the games in the first 5 minutes that those games would count as a loss for that player.  Same for custom games too.

What do you think?

This sounds pretty good to me!  I'd suggest simply giving everyone X free disconnects a month (no matter how long the game's gone on), but I'm sure it would get abused.

One final note: If you eliminate Skirmish, please ensure that the next Pantheon event starts up right away.  Else those that enjoy this format of play won't have to wait an entire weekend to play again. 

-- Tukulis

Edit:  Quotes fixed.

August 31, 2009 2:41:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I disagree. When there is a Pantheon going on there is little activity in Skirmish. true. But over the weekend there were regular skirmish games starting. Skirmish games are more balanced because the matchmaking system only needs to match based on Rank. In Pantheon the ligh an dark split can seriously skew the match ups especialy since the bulk of the experienced players end up on one or the other side.

Since you can not switch sides midway through a Pantheon, I bet a lot of people on the losing side sit out half the Pantheon. By removing Skirmish you remove an alternative they can play while waiting for the next Pantheon to start.

August 31, 2009 3:05:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is a complicated issue.

It seems to me that Skirmish was orginally intended to serve as the primary "match-making" engine, whereby players of a similar skill level could play against each other quickly and easily.  I like that idea, in theory.  I'm not sure why players didn't take to it, but as it stands now, so few players use Skirmish that if you try to get into a Skirmish game, you'll likely to be fighting AI opponents and/or have AI teammates.  It is possible that players didn't use Skirmish because it didn't allow them to choose maps/settings.  It was also more difficult to play with friends/teammates.  There may be other reasons I'm not aware of.

I've never totally understood Pantheon, except that it seemed like the mean older brother of Skirmish.  I assumed that Pantheon didn't use any rank-matching, so you might get 2 inexperienced players vs. 2 experienced (I refuse to use the word "pro" - oh, wait, I just used it...).  So, you were less likely to get an evenly matched, competitive game.  But this is where you test your demigod "mettle", so to speak. If teams are truly generated randomly (and people don't just quit when they end up on a team without a friend), then win/loss variables feeding into some "rank" metric are more meaningful, when generated from Pantheon vs. Custom.  I assume this was the original intent.  However, as others have pointed out (and a cursory glance at the Pantheon web-page reveals), the ranking system does have some issues.  Many (including myself) consider rank to currently meaningless, and not just because people are "gaming" the system - but because the formula used to compute rank is less than ideal.

For these reasons, I have largely avoided both Skirmish and Pantheon since starting to play DG.  Custom is the only game in town, mostly because it allows you to pick the kind of game you want to play, and play with your friends/teammates.  However, Custom is also a mess (well, that's too strong a work - it has some problems, let's say) because it throws all the players into the same pot and expects them to sort it out.  Player experience, premades vs. pugs, "hardcore" vs. casual, all that nonsense that dominates the forums.

IF Custom were improved to allow for better match-making - and really, this minimally requires just more information available to the players in the lobby - then there would be no reason to have Skirmish around doing nothing.

On top of these issues of rank-matching and playing with friends is the annoying issue of rank itself.  Personally, I don't care a wit about rank but I know many players do and it's probably nice to have it be a game feature (althought an argument could be made that it accentuates the lameness factor present in the online community).  I like the idea of having BOTH ranked and unranked (casual) games available - but maybe we don't have a big enough player pool to support that. 

IF Custom were improved to allow for both ranked and unranked games, AND incorporated a randomize teams OPTION (to deal with the premade-hate), then I bet we could do away with Pantheon as well.  Or keep Pantheon in, as is (ranked) and also have Custom (ranked and unranked options) for those who want to play with friends.

Just my thoughts.

NAc

 

 

August 31, 2009 3:18:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The only issue I see is touched on by Nucleus above:

In Skirmish I could try out different DGs, in Pantheon I'm rather stuck with one. Or has that changed and I can play any DG from the side I chose? Even then, it's still fun to play both sides.

Edit: Ah hah! OK, well, what if I choose a light DG, and want to try a dark? Can't change sides in Pantheon. Just saying.

August 31, 2009 3:23:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

erm, in pantheon, click the "Change Demigod" button above "Ready"!

August 31, 2009 3:25:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

erm, in pantheon, click the "Change Demigod" button above "Ready"!

August 31, 2009 3:38:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I am completely for getting rid of skirmish. You get rid of those hyper competitive people by allowing a group matchmaking.

My only concern is the whole you can only choose light side/dark side demigods if there were to be such a group matchmaking.

August 31, 2009 3:51:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Excellent ideas, Frogboy.

August 31, 2009 4:11:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

what do i care i don't play online

August 31, 2009 4:14:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think you should make two ladders: pubs and premades. Also make/split the pantheon in these two groups. Then remove the custom games ladder because it just doesn't make any sense to give exp for games that are not consistent. Settings can vary a lot in custom games so the ranks would give a skewed view.

I also don't understand why the pantheon isn't continous, it just doesn't make any sense. This is kinda like how it worked in Supreme Commander, and it was great.

August 31, 2009 4:27:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Can't see why it should be the same for customs. It's better they leave in the first 3-5 minutes so we can restart and play a real game rather then they leave later in the game and they have wasted your time..

BTW can't wait to 1.2!!!!!!!  *zoom* were did I go? *warp* you are dead...

August 31, 2009 4:30:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sounds good to me. I only play Skrimish when the Pantheon is over and I'm waiting for the next one to start. I like Dawn of War 2's setup. The automatching system is reserved for ranked play. You want non-ranked you play custom or private matches.

 

(Post 1.2? How about some more 1.2 info? Like some more specifics on the new Demigods )

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