A feminists complains about StarCraft

She's an idiot....

By on August 13, 2009 10:03:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums External Link

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I'm gonna pick out the highlights of her article. This must be the best:

A Nydus Canal is a large, vaginal opening, that if a Zerg unit enters, it may emerge at the other end, in a manner that "greatly puzzles most Terran scientists." (This quote is too much to not mock: What? Men cannot understand the vagina: the symbolic representation of women? I never would have guessed.)

This proves that you can find anything if you look hard enough.

Next up, she claims that the Zerg runs on a female economy which relies on reproduction. And Zerg gameplay is like the development of an orgasm! <-- LOL WTF???

The Zerg on the other hand, build up first a small and weak group of troops. These troops usually test the mettle of the enemy, and so you build up a slightly larger group to do the same. You then follow this with a larger, and more powerful, and a larger and more powerful, and a larger and more powerful group… until finally you have won, or you are struck in the instant of rebuilding before your next great thrust begins. While this argument is much more blatant when shown graphically, anyone who has studied either human sexuality, or gender-comparative literary styles should recognize this pattern. It is the comparative stages of sexual peaks, climaxes, and orgasm(s).

 

Playing with Gender: A Critical Look at Blizzard's Smash Hit Starcraft

After a hard day of classes, who doesn't want to kick back and relax? But there are so very many options of what to do on our beloved Bethany campus! … Many people on this campus, and throughout the country and world relax by indulging in various forms of gaming. Whether it be sports or role-playing, pool, arcade, or computerized, gaming is a popular form of entertainment. But, are modern computer games more destructive than they are productive? Now, don't get me wrong, there's nothing that I love more than curling up with my computer, a Starcraft CD, and Josie and the Pussycats in the stereo, but the other day I came to a few realizations.

While this argument could take nearly any game and come to the same conclusions, I would like to talk about the game Starcraft. To those of you who have never played it, don't worry, my point is clear enough that the actual gameplay need not be experienced to understand. I fear that Starcraft, along with nearly all modern computer games, alongside it's addictively entertaining gameplay, and beautiful plotline, reinforces negative gender stereotypes by quantifying the women as sexual objects, and simultaneously as unknowable beasts. This is not but a problem of Blizzard (the company the produces Starcraft and the popular Warcraft series.), but in fact of our society at large…. But to attack a whole society is so very difficult these days, so let's just stick with Starcraft for now.

Starcraft is an 'overhead-realtime-strategy game'. Which in short means that it is a game in which you build armies, and send them strategically to eradicate your enemies, while holding a bird's eye view. There are three races in Starcraft: The Terrans. Humans, expelled from Earth so very long ago that they've adopted their own governmental reign, technology, and customs… but who are still pretty much just like us with bigger guns. The Protoss, an ancient alien race whose power comes from their honor, nobility and psionic powers. And, the Zerg. A monstrous race of insects that have bred themselves into a hierarchical, hive-minded powerstructure, who wish to attain supreme perfection of form and essence.

Sounds pretty straightforward, huh? The blatant problem however is the way that women are depicted in this game, and perhaps the bigger problem is the comments on women that Blizzard may or may not have even realized that they put in (you may argue that if Blizzard didn't know, it's not a problem… if you want to argue this, first read some Michel Foucault… then e-mail me. (A game is a work, just like a book, once out of the author's hand, it is no longer theirs.).

Women in this and many computer games are depicted as sexual objects, and nothing more. Simply put, women are much more than that. Women, men… we are people, humans… nothing more, nothing less. Just because some of us have breasts, and others penises, does not make either more of an object of sex, nor more an object of power. We are of America, where we claim that we're all equal; equal rights, equal opportunities, equal power, equal sexuality. Therefore, it is not right to ingrain into our minds (through our entertainment) that one gender is only for the sake of sexuality. (For examples of the ways that women are overly sexualized in these games, see the attached "evidence" quotes.) Although this is a distinct problem, as these sexual identities get ingrained in us as we recreate, this is not actually the issue that I wish to address at the moment.

The issue that I wish to address is the much less obvious one. Of the three races in Starcraft, the player begins by first greatly feeling a connection to the Terrans. They are, after all, like us. They are humans, they look like us, they sound like us, and they claim Earth as their homeland. They have their power struggles, and their titles, and their government, and we understand this all, and empathize with it… quite frankly because it is our society. The Terrans are us, and so we relate to them. Blizzard was intelligent to do this, as it brings you into the game, and allows you to learn the user interface with a feeling of comfort, as you are not outside of the comfortable world of your computer room.

The next race is the Protoss. They are alien from us (as with all 'good' sci-fi aliens) in that they are exactly like us, but with a tweak here and there. Most players settle into the Protoss as their favorite race. This is presumably because of the fact that they are 'human' enough that we can feel for them, but they are alien enough that their power is new and sweet. The Protoss are essentially humans with greater psychic powers, and a more rigid code of honor (Note: I do not mean to say this of the story line, but of how we relate to them… I mean this in the same way as saying that Vulcans are humans with greater logic, less emotions, and pointy ears, or that orcs are green barbaric humans.). The Protoss are what many developing boys with to be. They are powerful, honorable warrior-philosophers. They are described as perfection of essence, but not of form (Alternately to the Zerg who are described as perfection of form who are seeking perfection of essence, and the Terrans who are described as perfection of neither, but on the brink of both.). We can feel for the Protoss, because, when all is boiled away, they are us… or at least our dreams and aspirations.

And then there are the Zerg… The ruthless, writhing alien beasts. The icky bugs. The enemy. The Zerg are not human. We have difficulty relating to them because (if for no other reason) when we click on them, they do not talk to us. They do not sass talk. They do not bend to our will. They do not entertain us. They simply respond to us in an animalistic tongue that we cannot comprehend. Upon clicking on one of their buildings, you do not hear the sounds of building, nor of metal upon metal, but instead of the organic sounds of life oozing. The Zerg tap into the spirit of fear that resides in all human beings. It taps into our primal memories of beasts that cause our tribes harm. And they are meant to be that way. They are the plague upon the universe, the disease, the evil, the enemy… the Other. So what? What the hell does any of this have to do with sex, sexuality, gender, or the price of tea in China?

It has everything to do with reinforcing gender stereotypes. but first you have to realize that the Terrans and the Protoss are men, while the Zerg are women. What??? The Terrans have male and female. The Protoss are asexual. And the Zerg…well, they're the Zerg! I understand… but keep reading and it will become clear.

Both the Terrans and the Protoss function on a productive economy. You build buildings that are suited to the type of unit (army) that you would like to use to conquer your opponent, then you invest money into those buildings. The more money that you invest into the more of those buildings, the stronger your army, and the faster you get those armies. The Zerg however work on a reproductive economy… something that we are not all too familiar with. With the Zerg, there is one main building, called a hatchery, that produces Larva. These larva are then transformed into a more powerful unit, which is even then occasionally transformed into an even more powerful unit. The power of the Zerg lies not in how many productive buildings you have, but in how many reproductive (larva-birthing) buildings you have. Also, their power lies not in efficiency of building (more marines per minute) but in keeping your troops alive long enough to get them nurtured and grown up to a state of power. (Good job for those of you who are putting together the gender argument already).

So? So, the Terrans play hard and fast, the Protoss play power, and the Zerg need to nurture, who cares? The reason why this is important is because the productive economy is the male economy. It is the economy that is set up by the half of the species that cannot bear children, the half than needs to invest worth in order to gain. Conversely, the reproductive economy is the female economy. It is the economy of the half of the species that bears children and is biologically required (at least for a while) to nurture the young. So that's great! We've shown one side of evidence that implies that the Zerg are playing off of female ideology, while the Terran and Protoss play off male… but that is still not yet anything offensive or bad. Allow me to show more support for the claim of Zerg being female, and Terrans and Protoss being male before I show the full extent of my hand.

The buildings say a lot about what gender they are meant to parody. The Terran buildings are sharp and angular. They are built in a series of poles and walls, and constructed from the ground up, sharp, boxy, and rigidly unwavering. Cold. The Protoss buildings are tall and thin, reaching toward the sky, the large phalluses reach upwards, rigid and firm, an emblem of power for all to behold. The Zerg 'buildings' are somewhat different. First of all they are not buildings, per se, but are living entities in and of themselves. Secondly, they must be 'built' upon the life-giving fluid that oozes from the mother building: the hatchery. Thirdly, a drone (evolved from a larva as are all troops) must sacrifice its life in order to become the building. Once the drone sacrifices itself, it becomes a large, undulating womb-sac that pulses and grows until the building inside has finished incubating. It then bursts forth out of the womb as a once again undulating 'building'. But the Zerg buildings are neither angular, nor phallic, but explicitly gynic. All of the Zerg buildings ooze some sort of fluid from one of their many openings. Nearly all of their buildings have one to multiple openings, ranging from gaping circles, to small oozing slits, to rounded triangles that pulsate open and then closed slowly. Also, one of the Zerg's greatest strengths is a building known as a Nydus Canal. A Nydus Canal is a large, vaginal opening, that if a Zerg unit enters, it may emerge at the other end, in a manner that "greatly puzzles most Terran scientists." (This quote is too much to not mock: What? Men cannot understand the vagina: the symbolic representation of women? I never would have guessed.)

My third argument comes from the actual experience of playing the game. When playing the Terran and Protoss, you slowly build and army of ever increasing power. You start off low in power, but then build and build, and build, and build until one glorious moment when you 'go' and it is either your moment of glory when you sweep the map, or it is an unpleasant resolution, as your great accomplishment is wiped out and you have no choice but to lose, or if you are lucky to undergo the slow but steady process of getting back up to the point where you can 'go' again.

The Zerg on the other hand, build up first a small and weak group of troops. These troops usually test the mettle of the enemy, and so you build up a slightly larger group to do the same. You then follow this with a larger, and more powerful, and a larger and more powerful, and a larger and more powerful group… until finally you have won, or you are struck in the instant of rebuilding before your next great thrust begins. While this argument is much more blatant when shown graphically, anyone who has studied either human sexuality, or gender-comparative literary styles should recognize this pattern. It is the comparative stages of sexual peaks, climaxes, and orgasm(s).

The Protoss and Terrans, follow the male sexuality of building up, and up, and up, until finally it is the long awaited moment, while the Zerg build up, and then drop some, then build more… and more… and more… and more, and once dropped it may re-build up again, much sooner than it's male counterpart.

If these arguments aren't enough 'evidence' to get you to at least contemplate the possibility that the Zerg are intended to be taken as female, while the Protoss and Terran are to be taken as male, I feel that you should reread the evidence more carefully, and perhaps simply examine if you don't want to believe it. Now, to the crux of the matter. The reason why it is harmful for games like this to draw on such ideologies is that it reinforces negative gender stereotypes, in regard to both men and women. I am mainly concerned with the female aspect, and so that is what I will put my emphasis upon.
To solidify into gamers minds the idea of Zerg = female, alongside Zerg = unknowable, evil beast yields a culture who regard female = unknowable, evil beast. This is obviously a problem. Women are human, men are human. In that sense there is no distinction. I would say "women are as worthy (or as human (or as anything)) as men", but this statement itself reinforces the ideology that men are standard, while women simply strive to be like them. this need not be the way that we look at it. Women and Men are equals, and anything, addictively entertaining or not, that reinforces an ideology that says otherwise needs be taken to task. I am not assaulting Blizzard, for I truly believe that they are not even aware of what they did. The problem lies in the fact that this game, in fact nearly all computer games, is a direct product of the American male fantasy. The problem lies not in the game (although it perpetuates the problem), but in the fantasy life that we have set up for the American male youth. Freud refers to women as the "immense heart of darkness", the unknowable, the different, the other. This permeates our society.

  • Well, I call for it to stop here and now. The only way to combat preconceptions such as this is to become aware of them. Women are not inhuman, are not unknowable, are not evil, nor the enemy, nor an immense heart of darkness. No, women are simply humans, the same as men, but with different sexual organs. Games that perpetuate such stereotypes are a symptom of a greater problem within society, a problem that I am calling attention to now. Fight sexism. Fight gender stereotypes. Think of people as people, not as sexual objects, nor as the unknowable other.

    Evidence

    Warcraft III:
  • Humans
  • Footman
  • "Don't ask. Don't tell."
  • Sorceress (only female human troop)-In a seductive voice: "What'll it be hotshot?" "If you insist." "This better be good." "Click me baby… one more time." "You don't 'get out much do you?" "Let's chat on Battle.net sometime." "Help me help you." "I don't remember casting slow on you." "Get down Sparky." "It's about time."
  • Mortar Team:
    "…and that's how baby Dwarves are made."
    "Get your finger out of thy bunghole."
  • Gryphon Rider
    "It's not the size of the hammer that counts, it's how you wield it."
    Granis Darkhammer
    "Touch me not, I am chaste."
  • Orcs: Grunt
    "Why you poking me again?"
    "Why don't you lead an army instead of touching me?"
    "Poke, poke poke, is that all you do?"
    "Me so horny, me hurt you longtime…"
  • Orcs Shaman
    "You ever get hit by lightning where the sun don't shine?"
    Peon
    "Me not that kind of orc."
    Magis Coldeye
    "Touch your tongue to mine."

Starcraft
Terrans

  • Medic- Speaking Seductively
    "Where does it hurt?"
    "I've already checked you out commander."
    "You want another physical?"
    "Turn your head and cough."
    "Ready for you sponge bath."
  • Vulture
    "I don't have time to fuck around."
  • Siege Tank
    "Yes Sir."
    "Orders Sir."
    (While these last two are not sexual, they give the obvious implication that the game player must be male.)
  • Goliath
    "Checklist completed…. SoB."
    (Again, not only being a sexually derogatory statement, this implies that only males will be empowered; leading the force.)
  • Valkyrie- In an overly sexualized Russian accent.
    "Don't keep me waiting."
    "I have ways of blowing things…. Up."
    "You're being very naughty."
    "Who's your Mommy?"
    "(Stallion neighing)"
  • Sarah Kerrigan
    "I'm ready!"
    "I'm waitin' on you."
    "Easily amused, huh?"
    "Doesn't take a telepath to know what you're thinking."
    "You get off on annoying people, don't you?"
  • Infested Kerrigan
    "Don't think that I need You!"
  • Infested Duran
    "I think you're getting too familiar."
    "I don't think we've met."

--Kelly Alerenson (lolathegrig@hotmail.com)

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MatBerryman2
August 18, 2009 9:17:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'd hate to bust the author's chops, but she she is plain wrong. When you are trying to prove a point there are some steps you have to follow:

  1. Find a foundation for the argument, something that is considered true under any circumstances
  2. Find other arguments that can support the foundation
  3. Draw the conclusion based on correct arguments

Now, as far as steps 2 and 3 are concerned, she did a pretty good job. You can basically find arguments for things that don't exist if you have imagination (like the nydus canals being giant vaginas....by that judgement any tunnel with things going through it is a vagina and therefore sexist.....damn those eurotunnel pricks are soooo sexist). However, the foundation of the whole article and the whole argument is that men and women are equals and therefore starcraft is sexist bla bla bla. And that is fundamentally wrong therefore rendering the article just plain false.

Sorry i have to say this....men and women are different. Their bodies are different, their way of thinking is different, their social behavior is different, their biological role is different, their predispozitions to certain skills are different. Women give birth, men don't. Women (supposedly) are more observant to details then men. Women have (supposedly) longer life spans then men.

So why the hell would anyone in their right mind say that we are the same? We are NOT! Does that make women less "human" then men? Nope. Does that make women more human than men? Nope. We are just plain different.

The issue that feminists are trying to resolve is equal rights and no discrimination. And i perfectly agree with that. That is how it should be and i personally support it. The reason that some of them think that they are not making any progress is that they cannot win an argument when the foundation of what they are fighting for is just plain wrong (men and women being the same etc etc). They should chage it to something that is actually true and makes sense like......i dunno.....we can't live without each other or something like that.

That being said i am absolutely convinced that neither blizzard nor 99.9999999999% of the people who played starcraft ever noticed the zerg being a female orgasm or most of the rants in the article. How is it degrading towards women when you have extremly competent female characters that kick ass? Medics are essential for a good fight, dropships are essential for fast and surprize attacks, Kerrigan is flat-out excelent at what she does. And even if the zerg were female, how would that be sexist if the zerg is the best rusher in the game. I could go on all day with this but i am afraid i will get ganked by radical feminists when i walk outside my house.

See what i did there? i had a the solid foundation argument (men and women are not the same) that cannot be disproven, i gave secondary arguments that have both disproven the author's theory and proven my own, and now i am about to draw a conclusion based on said foundation and arguments . That is how it's done.

So, conclusion. Feminists, shoot the archer, not the arrow. Stop attacking things that are not even remotely degrading towards women, get your arguments straight and stick it to the man (or whoever is standing in the way of what you are trying to achieve). I'm behind you 100%. (i'm sure radical feminists will say that that last sentence was somehow sexually degrading)

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August 18, 2009 1:58:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

When you are trying to prove a point there are some steps you have to follow: 1. Find a foundation for the argument, something that is considered true under any circumstances...

That's the rub, though, isn't it. It's very difficult to find foundations which are 'considered true under any circumstances', ie. by any audience, especially when you disagree with that audience and are trying to persuade them otherwise. You -- and most of the members of this board -- find the argument unpersuasive because you don't share a commitment to the same foundational beliefs as the author. Accordingly, your arguments aren't any more likely to persuade the author than hers are to persuade you. 

So why the hell would anyone in their right mind say that we are the same? We are NOT! Does that make women less "human" then men? Nope. Does that make women more human than men? Nope. We are just plain different.

That's so nineteen fifties. Many feminists don't believe that men and women are or even ought to be 'the same'.

 

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August 18, 2009 2:15:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Of course you can start by choosing arguments that are true. It can be as simple is "The sun is hot" and work your way from there. Or in my case, that men and women are different.

I'm not the one stuck in the nineteen fifties btw. People that keep finding derogatory things where there are none like extreme feminists are. They just plain annoy me. They are a huge clishe like black people yelling at the movie screen or profesional athletes who just swear that they can't begin to imagine how they tested pozitive for steroids.

I don't dismiss a person with who i don't agree with. You see, the way an argument goes is that each side exchanges arguments and proof to sustain them. That is how a GOOD debate is carried out. Of course i can spew out random stuff and draw whatever conclusion i want but that is how these long lasting conflicts are kept alive even when they are ridiculous.

I am not saying, by any means, that what I've posted is the absolute truth. I could be just plain wrong. If you find a flaw somewhere in my arguments and point them out to me, I will admit that I was mistaken, or bring up some new ones. That is how these things should be carried out.

I still stand by my conclusion that these types of articles and exagerated criticism are getting out of hand. There is no benefit from creating issues out of thin air, they only generate more reason to argue over something as pointless as Nydus vaginas.

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August 18, 2009 3:04:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 Of course you can start by choosing arguments that are true. It can be as simple is "The sun is hot" and work your way from there... I am not saying, by any means, that what I've posted is the absolute truth. I could be just plain wrong. If you find a flaw somewhere in my arguments and point them out to me, I will admit that I was mistaken, or bring up some new ones. That is how these things should be carried out. 

You wouldn't have much success in convincing a Pyrrhonian sceptic with this starting point. But then, the Pyrrhonian sceptic (or the author) wouldn't have much success against you. In order for debate to occur (at least debate of the sort capable of convincing one or more of the participants to change her mind), the participants must share some basic assumptions, for example, what sort of proofs count as supporting a particular claim. I am not accusing you of being narrow minded, but I think that this comment is illustrative of the persuasiveness of arguments in general; namely, that such persuasiveness is incredibly reliant upon surrounding beliefs:

In order for person A to convince person B to believe P, A must demonstrate that B holds some belief Q such that B cannot plausibly hold both P and Q, and that B should jettison P as a consequent. 

In other words, if I were to try to convince you that the sun were not hot, I wouldn't begin by claiming that all scientific and nonscientific measurements were lies because that's not a belief that you hold. A slightly less absurd example. If I were to try to convince you that Manchester United were the most successful sports team in the world, I would begin by attempting to convince you of the standards that ought to be used to measure 'success'. If you believed that success was measured by revenue, I would have a relatively easy time convincing you. If, however, you felt that success was measured by total number of trophies won, then I would have a harder time convincing you because I would need to first dislodge this particular belief. If your commitment to this belief was sufficiently strong, I wouldn't be able to convince you that Manchester United were the most successful team.

Also, my comment about the nineteen fifties wasn't about your having a nineteen fifties outlook on women, but a nineteen fifties outlook on what feminism is. That 'we can't live without each other' is an extremely common feminist argument (the critique of independence/mutual dependency theory/codependence/etc.).
I think the problem with your response -- not your conclusion that the author is full of shit -- to the article is that you're misreading it. The author doesn't criticize the claim that men and women are the same, rather, she critiques the manner in which we approach difference. Protesting that men and women really are the different isn't relevant. I think the points to press the author on are the ones to which people are reacting. Are there alternative, 'non-feminist' readings of the elements which the author claims conflate difference and femininity? And reasons to prefer those readings over the author's reading? Yes. Which is why the article's conclusion is wrong.
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August 18, 2009 3:45:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting zigzag,

 In other words, if I were to try to convince you that the sun were not hot, I wouldn't begin by claiming that all scientific and nonscientific measurements were lies because that's not a belief that you hold. A slightly less absurd example. If I were to try to convince you that Manchester United were the most successful sports team in the world, I would begin by attempting to convince you of the standards that ought to be used to measure 'success'. If you believed that success was measured by revenue, I would have a relatively easy time convincing you. If, however, you felt that success was measured by total number of trophies won, then I would have a harder time convincing you because I would need to first dislodge this particular belief. If your commitment to this belief was sufficiently strong, I wouldn't be able to convince you that Manchester United were the most successful team.

What that manchester united debate is lacking is a premise from which you can start that has to be objective. There are arguments that can be solved because of a strong premise and arguments which cannot. The problem you have posed with manchaster cannot be solved because, as you said someone can measure success by the ammount of money it recieves....the matches it has played, hell even it's eurogoals. Debating with that premise in mind would just go back and forth and back and forth and back and...... Which i am pretty sure it already does ( i am not a sports fan but i think i realise that there is not a unanimous decision of sports fans that MU is the best team in the world).

Therefore the MU problem cannot be resolved with that premise. What premise would be needed? hell if i know, as i said, dunno much about sports. Let's take it to the sun now. The "sun is hot" problem can be solved by using the premise "it is hot if it has high temperature". The sun has high temperature, therefore it is hot. A premise with which the problem could not be solved is "the rounder the sun is, the hotter it is" since it will not prove or disprove anything, just like in the MU debate.

Ok this is getting slightly out of hand here. What I was trying to say is that women that don't like being discriminated or looked down on ( and let's face it, nobody likes that ) have no need to fear nydus vaginas and orgasming zergs.

Now, unless people on this forum agree that protoss structures are giant penises and that the zerg Overmind is just acting according to some woman's orgasm, then the author's conclusion that starcraft is derrogatory towards women is wrong. That means that either her arguments or her premise is false. I have tried to prove that her premise was false, but apparenty i tottaly missed it. All i know is, that she tried to prove something and she failed (thus so many facepalms on this thread).

I'm not saying that the issue of women being demeaned is not a real one. Just that it is not present here. Ah...well there you go. That's her premise, i think i finally found it. Starcraft is demeaning towards women. She is basing this on the nydus vaginas and the fact that women are sexy in this game. I simply cannot fathom how on earth does having good looking women ( well, good looking pixels, it's a videogame ffs so there are NO REAL WOMEN!!!) that are very good at the roles they fill and that humorously flirt with the player mean that the game is sexist???

Look, I would have had nothing against this article if it was registered as a "fun fact". I was actually very intrested. I never thought of the zerg that way, and was both amused and really into it. But then she declared a sort of crusade against this. And there is simply NO foundation for it. That is what i was trying to say. No foundation for her conclusion. If you find one, please point it out.

Ok, i hope you got what i was trying to do here. So judging by the way she wrote her article, the huge number of facepalms on this thread, the nydus vaginas and the nexus penises.... the point the article was trying to make has FAILED.

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August 18, 2009 4:15:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What that manchester united debate is lacking is a premise from which you can start that has to be objective...

Obviously the example is given as an exaggeration. The point, though is that any debate which attempts to persuade cannot have any 'objective' foundation unless such a foundation is agreed upon by the debaters. The committed Pyrronhian sceptic, for example, wouldn't agree to the use of 'the sun has a high temperature so it is hot' as a foundation for debate. 

Ok this is getting slightly out of hand here. What I was trying to say is that women that don't like being discriminated or looked down on ( and let's face it, nobody likes that ) have no need to fear nydus vaginas and orgasming zergs.

Agreed.

Now, unless people on this forum agree that protoss structures are giant penises and that the zerg Overmind is just acting according to some woman's orgasm, then the author's conclusion that starcraft is derrogatory towards women is wrong. That means that either her arguments or her premise is false. I have tried to prove that her premise was false, but apparenty i tottaly missed it. All i know is, that she tried to prove something and she failed (thus so many facepalms on this thread).

Or it could be that the law of the excluded middle is false. If you reread the article (or take my word for it) she does anticipate and respond to the claim in bold. However, this claim can be modified so that it is an objection to her argument. The claim shouldn't be that 'people don't believe that Protoss structures are penises, so the game isn't sexist', the claim should be that there is a better explanation for the design of the Protoss buildings. Of course, this has to be done so that the author can't turn around and claim that whatever that explanation happens to be is underwritten by gender. This is trickier than it might seem because -- as other people have mentioned -- feminists have gotten really good at reading gender into everything.

Ok, i hope you got what i was trying to do here. So judging by the way she wrote her article, the huge number of facepalms on this thread, the nydus vaginas and the nexus penises.... the point the article was trying to make has FAILED.

I agree. I was more reacting to the claim that feminism = (men = women).

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August 18, 2009 4:32:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting zigzag,

I agree. I was more reacting to the claim that feminism = (men = women).


Had a nice time debating with ya. Cheers mate!  and +1 to you

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August 18, 2009 5:07:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think that was the first intelligent debate that has happened over a sensitive issue in the entire history of the internet.

Kudos to both of you for not resorting to the "you're gay" style of argumentation

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August 18, 2009 5:26:04 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'll put my Ultralisk in your Nydus Canal and then populate it with Zerglings, after which I will infest your Command Center. But perhaps I should burrow my Lurkers next to your Supply Depots, you know, to start things out.

So hot!

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August 18, 2009 9:51:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You know this video does help ya laugh and add to this, well to people who are this retarded and ya know will make a mountain out of a mole hill... enjoy

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywmpMQYojs&feature=related

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August 18, 2009 10:07:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So I should gather what from this?

That Blizzard support equal rights (Zerg, Terran, and Protoss are balanced) and that God hates women because it too invented insect like creatures?

 

Oh, and that Zerg are lesbians because of the whole "Girl on Girl" action?

Also, the Terran treat everyone/everthing in their military like objects... it's equal rights.

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August 19, 2009 4:49:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Hawawaa,
You know this video does help ya laugh and add to this, well to people who are this retarded and ya know will make a mountain out of a mole hill... enjoy

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywmpMQYojs&feature=related

As immature as that was........ i LOOOOOL'd .

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August 19, 2009 12:46:27 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Damn, quote button isn't working right for some reason. Wraid, you said: "Sorry i have to say this....men and women are different. Their bodies are different, their way of thinking is different, their social behavior is different, their biological role is different, their predispozitions to certain skills are different. Women give birth, men don't. Women (supposedly) are more observant to details then men. Women have (supposedly) longer life spans then men. So why the hell would anyone in their right mind say that we are the same? We are NOT! Does that make women less "human" then men? Nope. Does that make women more human than men? Nope. We are just plain different." I agree with zigzag-- in trying to provide a foundation for your argument, it's not as easy as it seems to create a common, irrefutable base of assumptions. You say that men and women are different, but do the differences always matter? What about differences that are not innate but are a result of socialization? If society had the power to create a difference, doesn't it have the power to get rid of it?
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August 19, 2009 12:51:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

assumption song....the only suggestively dirty song i've resently heard that isn't actually dirty

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August 20, 2009 3:55:18 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting vegancannibal,
Damn, quote button isn't working right for some reason. Wraid, you said: "Sorry i have to say this....men and women are different. Their bodies are different, their way of thinking is different, their social behavior is different, their biological role is different, their predispozitions to certain skills are different. Women give birth, men don't. Women (supposedly) are more observant to details then men. Women have (supposedly) longer life spans then men. So why the hell would anyone in their right mind say that we are the same? We are NOT! Does that make women less "human" then men? Nope. Does that make women more human than men? Nope. We are just plain different." I agree with zigzag-- in trying to provide a foundation for your argument, it's not as easy as it seems to create a common, irrefutable base of assumptions. You say that men and women are different, but do the differences always matter? What about differences that are not innate but are a result of socialization? If society had the power to create a difference, doesn't it have the power to get rid of it?

Society does not have the power to change anything. Only to make up bulls*** rules that try and deal with the consequences, not the problem. There is no point in society trying to homogenize everything where there can't and shlould not be any homogenization. And it does not matter if men and women are similar. Lemme give you an example:

Bob is a computer programmer, Alice is a tennis player. Do I make Alice write a heuristical pathing algorithm? No, she probably does not even know what any of those words mean. Do I make Bob play in a tennis tournament (not on wii, but an actual turnament)? No he would probably hurt someone or himself. People should be treated differently in regards to what they do, their gender etc. Yes, equal rights for everyone, that seems fair. But treating everybody the same is like trying to build an army of robot minions. It just should not be done with people.

By the way. The enter key is your friend. Makes the text a lot easyer to read. Go on, give it a whack.

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August 20, 2009 5:23:27 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting wraid,




Bob is a computer programmer, Alice is a tennis player. Do I make Alice write a heuristical pathing algorithm? No, she probably does not even know what any of those words mean. Do I make Bob play in a tennis tournament (not on wii, but an actual turnament)? No he would probably hurt someone or himself. People should be treated differently in regards to what they do, their gender etc. Yes, equal rights for everyone, that seems fair. But treating everybody the same is like trying to build an army of robot minions. It just should not be done with people.

By the way. The enter key is your friend. Makes the text a lot easyer to read. Go on, give it a whack.

So if Bob was a computer programmer and Alice was a computer programmer would you treat them differently or the same?

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August 20, 2009 6:05:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

EDIT: whats up wit that?

Editing posts needs bug fixes!

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August 20, 2009 6:06:12 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Aractain,

Quoting Nesrie, reply 116
Quoting wraid, reply 115



Bob is a computer programmer, Alice is a tennis player. Do I make Alice write a heuristical pathing algorithm? No, she probably does not even know what any of those words mean. Do I make Bob play in a tennis tournament (not on wii, but an actual turnament)? No he would probably hurt someone or himself. People should be treated differently in regards to what they do, their gender etc. Yes, equal rights for everyone, that seems fair. But treating everybody the same is like trying to build an army of robot minions. It just should not be done with people.

By the way. The enter key is your friend. Makes the text a lot easyer to read. Go on, give it a whack.

So if Bob was a computer programmer and Alice was a computer programmer would you treat them differently or the same?

 

Surely that depends on how attractive they are. And which Alice are we talking here, Alice in wonder land? Alice Cooper? Generic Female Alice? Al'ice (ALL ICE aka DIAMONDS BABY BLING BLING!)?

 

Anyways, wraid, treating the tennis player diffrently isn't what you would be doing in previous argument. Your doing the same thing for both (asking them to do something which they are good at). Treating them diffrently would be saying the tennis player shouldn't be allowed on a computer because they arn't a programmer. (Or telling Bob (Generic Male Prick) that he can't play sports because hes only interested in pornography).

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August 20, 2009 6:44:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes, i am asking them to do the things at which they are good at. Which would be different things.

Of course i would treat them differently. If i were at a party with alice and bob i would talk to alice about tennis and to bob about computers. We have different aspirations, talents etc. What you are talking about (tennis player should not be allowed on a computer) is DISCRIMINATION. And YES, i am against that. Treating people differently is different from discrimination. In that hypothetical situation, i was adapting my behaviour depending on the person with which i am with. That behavior is influenced by the social status, likes and dislikes etc.. of that particular person. I would say "hey biatch, what's happenin'?" to a close friend of mine, but i would not say it to my female boss.

The issue that was approached in the article was about discrimination and degrading things towards women. I have tried to say that, while that is a real issue, some overly ambitions zealots have made it their life's purpose to find sexism where there is NONE, and that is what made me write what i have written. What i was trying to argument was not wether i believe that the issue that the author addressed existed, because it DOES, it was that all people like her have lost track of what they are fighting for and taking shots at random people/institutions/companies/games in the hope of solving a problem that requires a whole different type of action.

 

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August 20, 2009 7:46:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah, okay but because humans treat each other on diffrent levels (manipulation and deciet!) that dosn't really matter because they are idiots. That argument dosn't really help, that only really proves we are evil (by DnD lore) creatures as a requirement in order to function. If you treat Alice and Bob who are both awesome korean Starcraft players the same (both fools lol) then thats more useful. I do not say someone can't do something because of gender, I say they can't do it because they are an idiot.

The big problem is that there ARE a lot of idiot men out there who are racists and sexists and use macs. Because you can prove there are SOME, they wont stop until they have 'proven' everything is corrupt. Afghanistan is a good example of this... sigh.

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August 20, 2009 8:23:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Agreed. There are lots. Seen them on tv, heard them on the radio, hell i even know some of these scumbags. But the way to solve a problem is with a precise, methodical approach. I don't know how to solve the problem at hand because i'm no specialist in human psychology or whatever, but i am damn sure that letting the world know about nydus vaginas and nexus penises is not the way to go. It is pure exageration.

It's like being afraid of germs, so you take a bath in medicinal alcohol every day. That won't just NOT solve the problem (you will still get tons of germs on you) you might actually hurt yourself like how the author here who got this thread in which she is being mocked and facepalmed at. If you try and take a shot at everything and try to find problems where there are none.....well.....i'm pretty sure that is how Hitler was as a young boy.....and we all know how well he grew up.

My point is-> Kelly Alerenson (author), you GO girl, fight sexism and stick it to the man. But do so without planting evidence where there is none, attacking people that have nothing to do with the problem and most of all, without embarassing yourself. I understand her cause and agree with it. The methods she is using are just making feminists look more paranoid and soon enough, if they continue like this, they will not be taken seriously at all.

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August 20, 2009 8:41:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

i think there is peoples who must be fired from mankid.

 

remember me of one of our local politician women who made a lot of noise against manga and especially dragon ball Z some years ago...

 

there had been a public query to slap his mouth shut

 

don t remember how it s finished but badly enough for us as this girl was one of the 2  "en lice" to be our republic president ...

 

shame ?

 

oh yeah

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August 20, 2009 8:59:33 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah and like Hilary Clinton's war on videogames. Utter bullshit political stunt. It constantly amazes me how her gene pool has survived that long with a hollow skull.

A funny bumper-sticker once said "Some people are only alive today because it's illegal to shoot them". Oh so true....

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