Balance suggestions for next patch wanted

By on July 22, 2009 7:54:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Aroddo

Join Date 04/2009
+59

COLOR SCHEME:

All balance suggestions in this thread are subjective opinions or complaints submitted by posters in this thread.

To highlight how strong others agree or disagree with these opinions I introduced the following color scheme:

  • Plain black/white: Undisputed complaints. No one has offered a different opinion on that point yet.
  • Green: Claim/suggestion is mostly accepted as true.
  • Red: That statement is under debate and no consensus has been reached.
  • Plain/crossed out: Statement is overwhelmingly refuted.
  • Bold/larger font size: Emphasizes the strength of the consensus.

Also, the balance suggestion format is to be interpreted like this (currently reformatting):

  • Skill name/problematic aspect: Here's the description of the issue that bugs the players posting here.
    • Proposed Change 1
    • Proposed Change 2
    • ....
  • Issue 2: ...

Status changes as discussion progresses. Check the update history at the bottom of this post to see which posts have been accounted for.


Read this first! (or at least skim over it)

 

On the whole the current cast of demigods is quite well balanced. A win is mostly decided by skill and less by the choice of your avatar.

Admittedly some builds seem downright overpowering - immortal Sednas for instance - but even those builds can be cracked ... and they usually have a harder time in other aspects of the game, like getting to the point where they are finally awe-inspiring.

I want to know what the experienced players think about the current state of balance (sorry newbs, but getting trashed by tower rooks and not having a clue how to beat them doesn't make rooks overpowered).

Also, I'm not looking for single-skill complaints - everyone knows by now that QoT's Tribute skill sucks (at level 15 at least) - but rather how the overall performance of a demigod skilling strategy compares to the rest of the game.

For example: Regulus has at least three skilling strategies one can pursue: Snipe, Mines, Angelic Fury.
* Clever minelayers are quite feared for their incredible burst damage and can easily dominate careless players but they can be comfortably countered by competent generals. Strong build but not everpowering.
* Snipers deliver unexpected kills from a great distance, frustrating many players that fall victim to him. Can't really be countered, but the skill depends on the target having low health in the first place which means that the snipes rely on the performance on your teammates or the carelessness of the opponent.
* Angelic Fury - er, I played that in the beginning. Are there good builds out there?

Anyway, Regulus has several main paths he can pursue, several pretty strong ones but not so strong that he can't be beaten without the need of a balance patch. But are some of his skills so weak that they will never get picked at all? If so, how should the change happen?

 

Please post your opinions and suggestions and I'll do my best to summarize the general consensus (btw, the initial QoT summary is solely my perception of her. Additional opinions welcome).

 


Lord Erebus

Build Strategies:


Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Coven: Erebus Minion builds are currently perceived as strong and cheap.
    • Nerf slightly (4/6/8 minions). (It's been suggested that only a certain item causes troubles - not the minions themselves)
    • First point of Coven is too strong. Distribute benefits over the levels (4/7/10).
  • Improved Conversion Aura: Same as Coven, minion builds appear overpowered to some.
    • Reduce health gain slightly  (100,200,300) (It's been suggested that only a certain item causes troubles - not the minions themselves)
  • Mist: Can be kept up indefinetly with the right items. Makes Erebus practically unkillable.
    • Add a max duration.
  • Bat swarm: Range 30 at level 2/3 too great? Also, Bat Swarm is interruptable (really? Never noticed.)
    • slightly reduce range at lvl 2/3 (20-25 range)
    • Make Bat Swarm uninterruptable (currently has 0.1 sec casting time.)
  • Bite: Still one of the most useful skills.
    • Nerf the speed debuff on victims
  • Stun: Due to long casting time this skill cannot be used as reliable interrupt.
    • Reduce casting time-

 


Oak

Build Strategies:


Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Soul Power: One point into this skill is very well worth it if you're getting minions, preferably early on so you also can take advantage of the passive bonus to the fullest. But getting level 2 and 3 is a lot harder to justify, since level 1 grants a static +20 damage boost plus the damage boost depending on the number of active spirits.
    • Increase or distribute the effectiveness of damage boost throughout all three skill levels.
  • Last Stand: The trigger animation lasts too long, giving the victorious demigod enough time to flee to safety.
    • Reduce trigger animation duration. Skip the fall-then-rise animation, and give Oak a damage buff depending on the number of minions he had when he died (level 1). Level 2, make Oak give any nearby allies a temporary bonus (ala SoF, without the dmg) when he dies.
    • Keep the obvious trigger animation but increase movement speed buff. Let them run but let Oak catch up.
    • Remove the bonus (both for him and allies) when hitting buildings, to avoid fortress-exploits and similar multi-Oak strats. (meh, I like the kamikaze demolisher strategy)
  • Shield: Level 1/2 too strong since they remove debuffs. Description says otherwise: Only Shield 3+4 should do so.
    • Remove the debuffing feature of Shield 1+2 (it's not THAT strong. look at the recharge time of shield).


Queen of Thorns

 

Build strategies:

  • Minion build: Shamblers+Entourage+Compost. Support with shield, spikes, mulch.
  • Shield Support build: Shield+Spikes+Goddess of Thorns. Support with shamblers
  • Siege Support build: Shield+Uproot+Spikes. Support with compost/shamblers.

Summary:

QoT fares bad with every build against every Demigod. Sure, at the beginning she has great staying power, comparable to tower rooks. But she will barely ever land a kill. Her dps and burst damage are low. Popping into open form for spikes/spike wave/uproot consumes much time. Theoretically a combo of ground spikes, spike wave and mulch could deal heavy burst damage, but the delay between form switching makes that unfeasable.

She has only two feasible ways of playing her: Support and Siege.

Balancing Suggestions:

  • Shield: Shield doesn't scale well at higher levels. Also takes unmitigated damage (which kinda makes sense).
    • Improve Shield strength by granting it more hitpoints.
    • Let personal shield take mitigated damage. Switching all shields to mitigated damage would make your team tanks nearly invulnerable. But if armor may influence the damage taken by the Shield QoT casts on herself, then it offers a good compromise. Could be an extra level 15 skill. Maybe balance that out by increasing cooldown.
  • Form switching: Popping out for spikes is highly risky. That tactic can become feasible again if you can cast spikes faster after switching forms ... and close faster after coming out.
    • Reduce time and casting delay
    • Keep auto attacking while switching forms
  • Open form: The closed form bonuses are great. So great that no one wants to play in open form, eliminating the desire for any aggressive QoT build.
    • Add passive bonus to open form! Give her open form AoE attacks (maybe even larger ones) attack speed bonus, minion bonus, whatever. Has the added advantage of seeing more QoT on the field in all her naked glory.
    • Reduce attack range to effect range of Ground Spikes.
  • Tribute: Available too late to make any difference.
    • Make Tribute available earlier.
    • Replace Tribute instead. Add a skill to improve Shambler effectiveness either by increasing dps or range/AoE of their autoattack.
  • Uproot: Universally regarded as weak. Only works against buildings and offers zero other uses (unlike Rooks structural transfer, which at least provides health).
    • Allow it to reduce the damage the tower does over the duration(-10,-20,-30,-40)
    • Add stun effect to affected buildings (reducing damage to 0).
    • Add a 'shaking' effect at the spot, slowing down units nearby? Uproot on a tower as a snare could be an interesting if limited effect, that would also synergize with the level 15 ability. (Maybe even add a chance to interrupt enemy DGs ?)
    • Make uproot target the ground and provide an area effect. Nice anti tower rook effect.
  • Summon Shambler: Shamblers are expensive, low on health and plainly ineffective. Too many skills are needed to make them somewhat useful.
    • reduce level 1 mana cost to 200. (Um, only Shambler 1?)
    • reduce mana cost of all summon shambler skills by 200.
    • reduce amount of skill points needed to make shamblers useful, i.e. buff up support skills and remove some levels.
    • merge the Entourage skill into summon shambler, basically making them stronger and making the minion tree less skill point intensive.
  • Mulch: Mulch has only limited use since it only works on the expensive Shamblers.
    • Make mulch work on every unit, not just Shamblers. However, only Shamblers will explode for damage. (I like the idea. Fits her character.)
  • Entourage: Only affects Shamblers.
    • Give combat bonus to other minions, too.
  • Compost: Only affects Shamblers and Uproot.
    • Give combat bonus to other minions, too.
    • Give a combat bonus to QoT herself, too.
  • General suggestions:
    • QoT has no stun. Give her one.

 


 

Regulus

Build Strategies:

  • Minelayer
  • Sniper

Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Dead Eye: Current implementation appears ... weak.
    • Buff either chance or duration while auto attacking
    • Change to work with Snipe only but give a 1 second stun 100% of the time
  • Mines: Stepping into a full mine field can spell instant death (6*450=2700 damage) (only if you're dumb enough to waltz into it. Caution against minelayer Regs.)
    • Nerf mines. Every part of them. (Mines are strong, yeah, but they are quite easily countered simply by walking! Experience helps.)
    • Increase Spread of mines
    • increase casting time

Rook

Build Strategies:

  • Tower Rooks
  • Rook ninjas
  • Rook assassin

Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Structural Transfer: Limited utility and nearly useless inside of combat because it's too easy to interrupt
    • Make it uninterruptable.
    • ST should leech mana. Energizer does something similar at level 15, but it's late (when everyone has interrupts) and only increases mana regeneration (by 150%) instead of leeching. (Personally I think that would make him overpowered)
    • Structural Transfer should repair own buildings. Interesting idea. Eat enemy and summoned towers but repair your own fixed defenses (with what? Health? That makes for some interesting tactical choices. This would prevent him from emergency munch his team's fixed defenses, though.)
  • Power of the Tower: Towers are overpowered (sigh...)
    • Nerf towers. Reduce health and attack speed. (deeper sigh...)
  • Base Attributes:
    • Increase movement speed from 5.4 to 5.5 or 5.6 (matter under debate. slowness is part of his design. besides: Rook has ranged attacks.)
    • Increase armor (well, he does have the lowest armor in the game, despite being a big walking castle)
  • Boulder Roll:
    • Increase Damage (dunno. BR is usually used in conjunction with Hammer Smash, which means LOTS of damage).
    d
  • Hammer Slam: Apparently it doesn't deal enough damage.
    • More damage late game.

Sedna

Build Strategies:

  • Heal & Pounce - Good burst damage and extremely high passive and active healing capabilities. Nearly immortal.

Summary:

Passive and active self-healing skills can make Sedna nearly immortal. Her Pounce deals good damage and doubles as an interrupt. Silence interrupts, too, and prevents skill usage alltogether for some time in a large area. One of the strongest - if not the strongest - demigods around when played correctly. In fact, her healing builds are so strong that every other build of hers that isn't a variation of that becomes obsolete.

Balance Suggestions:

  • Summon Yetis: They  suck. Too often Yetis can't reach the enemy because some midgets stand in their way.
    • Remove or reduce collision area or improve pathfinding of Yetis.
    • They are too weak for their cost. Make them stronger.
    • Yetis should do splash damage at all levels, something like 15/30/45/60%
  • Wild Swings: By that time this skill's usefullness is limited.
    • Yetis should either have a 50% chance to knock small units into the air or a 10% chance to deal 1.5x damage.
  • Inner Grace: Right now this skill only improves Sedna herself (but quite decently).
    • Additionally increase Yeti damage by 10% per level.
    • Apply all current bonus effects from Inner Grace to Yetis.
  • Silence: Expensive
    • Reduce casting cost of  Silence 1 from 800 to 750 (I didn't have the impression that Sedna is particulary weak. And the suggested change doesn't really seem significant.)
  • Healing Wind: As a +24 hps aura is a decent enough skill without needing the uber healing upgrade to priests. Especially regarding High Priests.
    • Nerf actual bonus to minion healers from 15/18/20/22 to 13/15/17/19 (I think it's good as it is. Minus the High Priest bug).
    • High Priests (level 3 monk idol) heal 30%, which is plainly a bug. Correct that bug!
  • Heal: The Basic heal for Sedna is just too good early game.  You can heal significantly more ability damage per mana than anyone can deal.
    • Nerf Heal from 600/900/1200/1500 to 450/900/1350/1800). This makes the effect strictly worse until level 7, and then it gets a little better.
    • Increase cooldown from 7 to 10 seconds.

Torch Bearer

Build Strategies:

  • Pure Fire
  • Pure Ice
  • Hybrid AoE master.

Summary:

 

Balance Suggestions:

  • Permafrost/Fire Aura: Auras stay active for a short time in the other mode. Too short?
    • Increase aura duration slightly when switching between fire/ice form. (How long do they last anyway?)
  • Circle of Fire: Increases damage, but not size.
    • Vary radius of Circle of Fire as it levels.
  • Deep Freeze: This interrupt is too slow for some.
    • Make it instant instead of 0.1 sec
  • Basic Attributes: Ice TB can attack while moving. Fire TB can't. Also, mode switching costs lot's of time.
    • Enable auto attack while moving in fire mode!
    • Reduce time it costs to switch from ice to fire mode.

Unclean Beast

Build Strategies:

  • Spitting Beast
  • Oozing Beast
  • Hybrib Spit-Ooze Build

Summary:

 

Balance Suggestions:

  • Spit: Too strong. And apparently there are issues regarding spit stacking and feeling counterintuitive. (I have no idea what that means).
    • Increase the cooldown on spit to 10 seconds.
    • make Spit not work on towers.
  • Foul Grasp: Bad scaling. No incentive to invest more than 1 skill point. Also quite expensive.
    • Change  to 1.5/2/2.5 seconds of stun.  Makes it a smidge weaker early on, and makes it worthwhile to get more points in later on. (It's been suggested that an increased stun is actually a nerf due to the current foul grasp mechanics. See here.)
    • Reduce Mana cost.
  • Bestial Wrath: BW is too expensive and cast time is too long.
    • Reduce Mana cost by 100
    • add attack speed bonus (+5/10/15/20%) (um, UB already attacks very fast at higher levels. fastest attacker in the game, in fact)
    • Reduce cast time to 0.3
    • Add a movespeed bonus.
    • Increase effect duration
    • Temporary life leech effect.
  • Acclimatization: Skill is too good, giving UB a strong advantage against heavy hitters (like Hammer Slam).
    • Nerf damage reduction to 25%.
    • Let it trigger only once very 10 seconds.
    • Nerf is somehow. (It's accepted that this skill is maybe too good. )
  • Ooze: Free damage and powerful debuff. Only costs health.
    • Make it cost mana when activated

ITEMS

  • Horn of Battle:  Abusing this item allows generals to hoard minions and send them unscathed directly to the enemy citadel, destroying it with several tries. Also, the effect applies to newly summoned minions even after the horn was used.
    • Nerf range of horn effect so only minions close to the caster are affected.
    • Don't let the effect work on minions summoned after using the horn.
  • heaven's wrath: too good mid/late game for pushing (and early game for leveling)
    • increase its cooldown by 30 seconds. (it already has 45 sec cooldown. Item is ok by my book)
  • Heart of Life: who uses it now?
    • reduce cost of HoL. Maybe 10000?
  • blood of the fallen: Health bonus too great.
    • slightly reduce from 800 to 750. (big deal. change barely matters. and to lower hp further makes it worse than charm of life)
  • caplock:
    • increase cooldown slightly(2-5 secs) (don't fix what ain't broke)
  • All artifact consumbles: Too expensive.
    • reduce costs
  • journeyman's treads: movement speed bonus too powerful
    • nerf movement speed from 50% to 40%
  • Armor of Vengeance
    • Increase trigger chance from 1% to something higher
  • Platemail of the Cusader
    • Increase trigger chance from 1% to something higher
  • Parasite Egg: It's high cost makes it nearly prohibitive, even though the effect is interesting.
    • Reduce it's cost from 5000g to maybe 3000g.

Update history:

  1. Included Schobbos reply#1 criticism of QoT Tribute & minion damage.
  2. Aeris130 reply#2 Oak complaints.
  3. Color scheme for marking disputed complaints/suggestions.
  4. ItchyDustbin #7 & Schobbo #1 Yeti remarks.
  5. StAcK3D_ActR #4 remarks. Some of them, at least.
  6. Polynomial #10 and rest of StAcK3D_ActR #4. Alphabetical DG order.
  7. Added suggestions from #11 -#25
  8. Added suggestions from Obscenitor #27 and repeated suggestions from Shadow (sorry it took so long). Painted Erebus minion nerf suggestions red as result.
  9. Added #29
  10. Added #32
  11. Moved color-index to top at request of abuggeredhedgie #39. Added #37 suggestions excluding the Ooze one which I didn't understand.
  12. Acknowledged posts up to #46 (boy this is work. This should be done by forum administrators, honestly).
  13. Acknowledged posts up to #52. Added items. Didn't include items that had no real complaint or suggestions. (sorry, stacked)
  14. Acknowledged posts up to #75. Mostly quarrels between Sedna & Erebus - em - experts.
  15. Acknowledged posts up to #92.
  16. Acknowledged posts up to #132
  17. Acknowledged posts up to #143
  18. Acknowledged posts up to #157

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July 22, 2009 8:50:52 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Minion build, low damage output? lol dude, minion QoT does way more damage than any other build, you can easily keep up with the damage of other DG's.

QoT just needs some good lategame skill, intead of the tribute thingy there should be something that increases shambler damage more.

 

Almost forgot, other suggestions:

Regulus "Dead Eye" Skill (at the end of snipe tree), either increase %chance or stun time.

UB Bestial Wrath cast time should be reduced (i think its bugged anyway, since the cast and the animation are not synchronized)

Buff Sednas Yetis, seriously they suck ass.

 

Thats all for now, I might add more later.

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July 22, 2009 9:04:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

<Oak opinions>

Looking at Oaks skilltree, half of it is extremely useful. Raise Dead, Pentinence, Shield and Surge of Faith are all skills that can be maxed out depending on which build you're going for, and very useful when doing so.

The other half though (not counting Morale), Last Stand, Soul Power, Soul frenzy and Divine Justice, aren't quite so hot.

Soul Power

One point into this skill is very well worth it if you're getting minions, preferably early on so you also can take advantage of the passive bonus to the fullest. But getting level 2 and 3 is a lot harder to justify, since you will most likely need those point for other, more prominent skills during the mid-level game. Most builds I've seen that fills up SP does so after level 15, when there's little else to start speccing, and that is also what I do. The skill is not a tide-turner, but rather something you put points into when a] It's too late to start focusing on other skills, or b] when you're ahead so much that you just want a little extra damage to pile it on. Regardless, level 2 and 3 cannot compete with Shield, pentinence and Surge round level 5-8, which is when you get them.

Suggestions: Increase the Spirit bonus on level 2 and 3. There's really little else I'd want from this skill mid- to late game.

Divine Justice

Like Soul Power, putting one point into this can very well be worth it, and give you a little extra staying power if you manage to hold a lane and farm it while the opponent is running for the crystal. But just like SP, this skill really isn't something you'll spec when you're having troubles beating the opponent. While level 2 and 3 gives you a very nice bonus (level 3 almost makes lv3 Surge of faith free if you pop it in the middle of a creep swarm), it's not a tide turner, but rather something you can use when there's no need for anything else.

Suggestions: Honestly, I don't know. There's nothing ineherently bad about the skill itself, and buffing the heal would probably leave it OP, since Oak isn't really supposed to be a healer (not to mention that it also heals your allies). I just find that level 2 and 3 has issues competing with the good skills, during the time when your choice of skills are important.

Rally

Divine Justice level 4. To be honest, I can't really recall more than 5-6 occations when I had to risk death in order to kill an enemy, and thay all happen waaaaaaay before level 15. Thus I've never gotten to use this skill.

Last Stand

The start-up animation is too long. Period. If Oak didn't go down, but instead simply caught fire (or something) and proceeded to bash the opponent, this skill could actually be useful in even encounters, as well as putting pressure on the opponent. As it is now, even Oak himself has no trouble out-running a LS Oak once he's dead. Unless you have 1% HP left, Last Stand is nothing to fear in 1v1, and 2v2+, you'd be running either way.

Suggestions: Skip the fall-then-rise animation, and give Oak a damage buff depending on the number of minions he had when he died (level 1). Level 2, make Oak give any nearby allies a temporary bonus (ala SoF, without the dmg) when he dies. Also, remove the bonus (both for him and allies) when hitting buildings, to avoid fortress-exploits and similar multi-Oak strats.

 

The problem with these skills isn't that they're plain bad (ok, I think Last Stand sucks), just overshadowed by the rest of the cast. It's a bit tricky to suggest improvements since it could leave Oak OP, but I cannot deny that whenever I put points into my tree, it goes in this order:

 

  1. Is the next level of SoF available? (Oak really needs this to level up)
  2. Can I put it into Spirits/Shield/Pentinence?
  3. meh, how about Divine justice? Or Morale?
  4. Guess I'll put it into Soul power 2 and 3 then. Or wait, my opponents are noobs. let's just go with Last Stand and suicide their citadel.

 

</Oak opinions>

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July 22, 2009 9:11:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Aeris130,
<Oak opinions>

Looking at Oaks skilltree, half of it is extremely useful. Raise Dead, Pentinence, Shield and Surge of Faith are all skills that can be maxed out depending on which build you're going for, and very useful when doing so.

The other half though (not counting Morale), Last Stand, Soul Power, Soul frenzy and Divine Justice, aren't quite so hot.

I have to disagree. Every single skill of oak is very good and Oak is the last DG that would need anything changed on his skills.

Soul power isn't good? you gotta be kidding dude, i like to mow you down with 500dmg per hit some time.

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July 22, 2009 9:17:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

QoT balancing suggestions

fix summon shambler level 1, reduce its mana cost to 200

buff uproot, allow it to reduce the damage the tower does over the duration(-10,-20,-30,-40)

Reg balancing suggestions

buff dead eye, 1 second stun 100% of the time

Rook balancing suggestions

give structural transfer more utility.

either:

  • make it uninterruptable(and reduce the amount of hp it sucks)
  • or allow mana to also be sucked from towers
  • or allow a reverse effect, like regenerate health back to a tower

increase his movement speed slightly 5.6

Oak balancing suggestions

shield should work like description, level 1/2 shield shouldnt be able to remove debuffs(spit)

Sedna balancing suggestions

buff yetis

reduce lvl 1 silence cost slightly(750 mana cost)

Lord erebus balancing suggestions

nerf coven slightly(4/6/8 minions)

reduce health gain slightly on conversion aura(100,200,300)

put a max duration on mist

reduce range slightly on batswarm lvl 2/3 (25 range)

TB balancing suggestions

increase buff duration slightly when switching between fire and ice modes

vary the radius of circle of fire as it levels

make deep freeze instant cast instead of 0.1 sec

 

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July 22, 2009 9:18:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Schobbo,
I have to disagree. Every single skill of oak is very good and Oak is the last DG that would need anything changed on his skills.

Soul power isn't good? you gotta be kidding dude, i like to mow you down with 500dmg per hit some time.

I'm pretty sure you can do almost that with just 1 point into SP. The damage difference between SP1 and SP3 (assuming you have 9 spirits out) is just 40. One point into SP or three, you still get the full spirit bonus. It's just a passive +20 dmg for level 2 and 3.

Hence why 1 point into SP is indeed very good, and why it is the only non-sucking skill (aka LS) that I actually wanted a buff for lv2-3.

Also, reading is fundamental:

The problem with these skills isn't that they're plain bad (ok, I think Last Stand sucks), just overshadowed by the rest of the cast.

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July 22, 2009 9:20:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

 

Minion build, low damage output? lol dude, minion QoT does way more damage than any other build, you can easily keep up with the damage of other DG's.

QoT just needs some good lategame skill, intead of the tribute thingy there should be something that increases shambler damage more.

Maybe I can rephrase that. To my (and many others') experience Oak minion builds are feared because spirits fly and can easily gang up on other Demigods and Erebus minion builds are loathed because nightwalkers can get incredibly tough and deal heavy damage. I haven't heard of any particular dangerous Sedna or QoT minion builds, which lead me to my assertion. I'll rephrase it to effective damage output, though.

Tribute could be useful if it was available earlier. But another boost to shamblers at the end of the Entourage tree might be nice, too. Perhaps increase the range of Shamblers attack? Or the width of their attack's AoE? Simply increasing damage sounds ... too conventional.

Regulus "Dead Eye" Skill (at the end of snipe tree), either increase %chance or stun time.

Has anyone ever tried and observed the effectiveness of that skill? I didn't, so I can only assume it sucks judging from it's description.

UB Bestial Wrath cast time should be reduced (i think its bugged anyway, since the cast and the animation are not synchronized)

Does the current implementation render this skill useless or overpowered?

Buff Sednas Yetis, seriously they suck ass.

Are Yeti builds so bad that they offer no advantage at all? Or are there situations/build-item-configurations where they are effective?

 

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July 22, 2009 9:58:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Aroddo,

Are Yeti builds so bad that they offer no advantage at all? Or are there situations/build-item-configurations where they are effective?

 

Yes, probably the single worst skill in the game, no amount of buff will fix them much except first removing their collision, because they collide with EVERYTHING and they're so big, they just spend all their time spinning in circles because they can't fit past a couple of creeps.

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July 22, 2009 10:18:31 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Aeris130,


Soul Power

One point into this skill is very well worth it if you're getting minions, preferably early on so you also can take advantage of the passive bonus to the fullest. But getting level 2 and 3 is a lot harder to justify.

Rather than further improving Oak, I suggest that the power increase should be more evenly distributed among all three levels of that skill. Apart from that I agree.
 
Quoting Aeris130,


Divine Justice

Like Soul Power, putting one point into this can very well be worth it, [...]

Suggestions: Honestly, I don't know. There's nothing ineherently bad about the skill itself, and buffing the heal would probably leave it OP, since Oak isn't really supposed to be a healer (not to mention that it also heals your allies). I just find that level 2 and 3 has issues competing with the good skills, during the time when your choice of skills are important.

I don't really see a complaint here, apart from flavor.

Quoting Aeris130,

Rally

Divine Justice level 4. To be honest, I can't really recall more than 5-6 occations when I had to risk death in order to kill an enemy, and thay all happen waaaaaaay before level 15. Thus I've never gotten to use this skill.

There I can disagree. This skill when combined with Last Stand makes all-out attacks more feasible than with any other demigod.

Quoting Aeris130,

Last Stand

The start-up animation is too long. Period. [...]
Suggestions: Skip the fall-then-rise animation, and give Oak a damage buff depending on the number of minions he had when he died (level 1). Level 2, make Oak give any nearby allies a temporary bonus (ala SoF, without the dmg) when he dies. Also, remove the bonus (both for him and allies) when hitting buildings, to avoid fortress-exploits and similar multi-Oak strats.

I think the skill is good as it is. For one, it's kinda funny how the enemy suddenly chickens after killing Oak. And attacking buildings is a good use of his last few seconds of action. After all, this short burst of damage is paid for with Oak's life.

 

I felt I had to directly answer that to justify the colorings of your criticisms in the original post.

 

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July 22, 2009 10:23:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Oak is really balanced, I like where hes at right now. He's got a fine list of skills which all synergize with eachother, and I already have trouble figuring out what order to get things in. 

The only critical balance change we need is some nerf to Horn and either minion given xp or a minion leash radius, or some mechanic to make sure people can't repeatedly rush your citadel with minions until its dead. 

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July 22, 2009 10:47:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR,

Oak balancing suggestions

shield should work like description, level 1/2 shield shouldnt be able to remove debuffs(spit)

It does work as intended. It makes you immune to damage. Hence cancelling spit.

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July 22, 2009 11:05:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It does remove other things though, like Speed debuffs (assuming he got them before popping it).

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July 22, 2009 11:12:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'd love to see Uproot and Structural Transfer stun buildings.  I've suggested this before.  THe basic idea is that while you are using one of these powers on a building it doesn't attack.

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July 22, 2009 11:17:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

QoT would be fine if shamblers weren't so expensive skill point wise. If you're going to allow mitigation on QoT shield, you should at least make it cost skill point(s). That could be her level 15 skill even.

The horn bug needs to be fixed and its effective range capped to something similar to the radius of Oak's Soul Ward.

Leave Oak alone (with the exception of Last Stand bonus not applying to buildings).

Structural Transfer healing buildings would be nice. Otherwise the skill is second rate.

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July 22, 2009 11:17:44 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Are Yeti builds so bad that they offer no advantage at all? Or are there situations/build-item-configurations where they are effective?

The trouble with a Senna Full minion build is that it takes too long to ramp up. Playing Oak of Erebus full minion is effective starting at level 5. Full Minion Senna only starts getting good at 10 or 15. If a Yeti was equivalent to 1.5 or 2 nightcrawlers then they might be more interesting.

One of the main problems with Senna and Queen special minions is that they cost so much mana and are about at squishy as Nightcrawlers and Spirits.

Soul Power skill levels don't scale well. They are useful but the by far largest benefit comes from level 1, giving little incentive to pick level 2+3.

Actually I think Soul Power 2 and 3 are fine. I use them all the time. Adding 20 points of auto attack damage to a general and Oak specifically is significant. If it was any more powerful it would be stepping on the toes of assassins when it comes to auto attack damage.

Currently I think the most abusive thing is the Horn of Battle Minion citadel rush but I don't see much of that in Pantheon and Skirmish.

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July 22, 2009 11:27:28 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Rather than further improving Oak, I suggest that the power increase should be more evenly distributed among all three levels of that skill. Apart from that I agree.

I dunno, it's not broken or anything as it is right now. Lowering the bonus on early levels would be more like a nerf.

I don't really see a complaint here, apart from flavor. 

Yeah, Dj is probably my favourite skill. I just love watching all those green and blue numbers pop up. It's a nice bonus when using SoF, but little more than that, and certainly not anyones first choice in a game where you're having troubles fighting other DGs.

You could argue that DJ is simply meant for improving farming, but Oak doesn't really have any specific issues with that as it is right now. It's nice to get a few chunks of HP, but I'd love to able to skip early points into SP/Pent/Shield/Spirits in favor of DJ, but as it is right now, DJ gets excess points, and nothing else.

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July 22, 2009 11:35:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't really see a complaint here, apart from flavor.

Yeah, Dj is probably my favourite skill. I just love watching all those green and blue numbers pop up. It's a nice bonus when using SoF, but little more than that, and certainly not anyones first choice in a game where you're having troubles fighting other DGs.

You could argue that DJ is simply meant for improving farming, but Oak doesn't really have any specific issues with that as it is right now. It's nice to get a few chunks of HP, but I'd love to able to skip early points into SP/Pent/Shield/Spirits in favor of DJ, but as it is right now, DJ gets excess points, and nothing else.

I tend to bash on minions and creeps when having high DJ, despite the annoying DGs around me.

I usually sick my minions and on DGs, stuff a Penitence down their throats and continue to farm creeps for health. I kinda like how this skill effects playing style and I think it can stay exactly as it is now, Rally included.

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July 22, 2009 12:09:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

QoT:

  • Shamblers are weak (very low HP) and their AI is awful.
  • Uproot is not very useful, and thus Compost has limited use.
  • While she can be played as an Assassin it (the assassin build) doesn't compare to the Assassin builds of other Generals.
    • Imagine trying to play QoT without her shield... the only alternative is a Shambler build with Mulch... She is far too dependent on her shield.
    • Basically, I'm saying that QoT should probably recieve a boost in her open form or to her damage dealing spells.
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July 22, 2009 12:11:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

jeez, nobody's complained about the High Priests+Healing Wind bug yet? this is the one where the level 3 Idol Summoned Priests heal for 30% of max health if under the effect of Healing Wind rank 2. 

 

im gonna go on the record with that one, its a bug resulting from a typo in the LUA files. its really overpowered. i use it and abuse because i can, but its definitely unfair. 

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July 22, 2009 12:15:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Really the game is pretty well balanced as it is so you dont need to do too much.

I'd say:

Fix Sedna High Priests bug (effectively a Sedna nerf)

Slightly nerf Erebus minion build.  Assassin build is fine.

Buff QoT

Fix TB auto attack bug

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July 22, 2009 12:17:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

also gonna complain about Torchbearer's Fire mode auto-attack. as far as I know its the only auto-attack in the game that cannot be used while moving. this makes it nearly impossible for Fire TB to effective pursue enemy DG's and greatly reduces the killing power of Fire builds. 

 

i can only assume this is a bug since it seems like such unexpected and atypical behavior. i'd like to see it changed in order to introduce more variety into TB builds, which are currently pretty heavily slanted in favor of Ice mode. 

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July 22, 2009 12:28:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting transitive,
also gonna complain about Torchbearer's Fire mode auto-attack. as far as I know its the only auto-attack in the game that cannot be used while moving. this makes it nearly impossible for Fire TB to effective pursue enemy DG's and greatly reduces the killing power of Fire builds. 

 

i can only assume this is a bug since it seems like such unexpected and atypical behavior. i'd like to see it changed in order to introduce more variety into TB builds, which are currently pretty heavily slanted in favor of Ice mode. 

Well two things, firstly I think remember reading somewhere that the animations for fire-TB-attack-while-moving don't even exist atm. its not like they're in there but accidently inactivated. They're just not there, which kind of implies that this might have been intended. Second of all fire TB with enough speed can chase and repeatedly fireball, which is effective in lieu of attack-while-moving. 

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July 22, 2009 2:16:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You don't need to nerf the Erebus minions if you fix the horn.

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July 22, 2009 2:45:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

To be honest, I think oak is pretty much the best balanced DG right now. A variety of play styles, a lot of interesting options, and the ability to be strong if played fairly well.

I'd say the two areas needing the most attention are QoT, Sedna, and UB. I do not have experience with strong Erebus minions so I won't comment on it.

 

QoT: Fundamental problem is that she relies on Bramble Shield, and that it takes too many skill points to use her Minions effectively.  This is mainly due to her minion effecting skills doing nothing on their own.

 

Suggestions to make her better:

  1. Entourage Needs to do something for a QoT without Shamblers. How about giving the damage buff to all her minions, not just her shamblers?
  2. Mulch Needs to do something for QoT without Shamblers.  How about letting her sacrifice any minion she owns, but you only get the exploding benefit, not the health?
  3. Uproot doesn't compare well to other skills she has, including Ground Spikes, which is often very much better. How about making it 'stun' the building, ala Frost Nova, for the duration?  Perhaps create a 'shaking' effect at the spot, slowing down units nearby? Uproot on a tower as a snare could be an interesting if limited effect, that would also synergize with the level 15 ability.

Unclean beast is currently the DG with the greatest win percentage by a good long way, I think we just need to tone down a few of his effects.

  1. Increase the cooldown on spit to 10 seconds. Removes, in most cases, the issue with spit stacking, and how counterintuitive it feels.
  2. Change Foul Grasp to 1.5/2/2.5 seconds of stun.  Makes it a smidge weaker early on, and makes it worthwhile to get more points in later on.

I think those two slight changes should be enough to tone down his strength to within the realm of everyone else, especially at level 5, where spit/grasp/spit will be significantly weaker.

 

Sedna is also a high win% DG, and I think will become increasingly more prevalent in the near future as people start getting the hang of playing her.  Even without the High Priest bug, her improved healing wind is an extremely efficient healing ability. Bishops healing 22% is going to still feel very strong, as will monks healing 15% right when she turns level 5.

  1. Healing Wind 2, as a +24 hps aura is a decent enough skill without needing the uber healing upgrade to priests. I think the actual bonus to minion healers should be reduced from 15/18/20/22 to 13/15/17/19.
  2. The Basic heal for Sedna is just too good early game.  You can heal significantly more ability damage per mana than anyone can deal. This, at best, creates long drawn out stalemates. I think reduce the effect of level 1 heal to 450, but then make each level afterwards give +450 Healing instead of 300.  (from 600/900/1200/1500 to 450/900/1350/1800) This makes the effect strictly worse until level 7, and then it gets a little better.  Allows her to focus more on a long term healing strategy that doesn't NEED to involve priests.
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July 22, 2009 2:58:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Torch Bearer

The autoattack while in fire mode needs to fixed urgently beacuse makes alot of possible builds (hybrid builds) unplayable. follow my line of thought:

fire tb cannot autoattack while moving -> you effectivly cant chase a running demigod while in fire mode -> beacuse you can't chase in fire mode, and switching modes takes time (espically when moving beacuse when you change you stop moving) you need to be in ice mode to begin the chase, which causes you to prefer to spend most of your time in ice -> since you spend must of your time in ice, fire aura becomes useless (it's nice to have higher movement speed and attack rate, but it dosen't really help if u can't attack), this means any viable hybrid build contains permafrost and fire aura is basicly worthless.

once you fix that bug alot of new possible builds become viable beacuse you can take fire aura and also mix some other fire skills (since you plan on staying in fire mode mostly anyway). right now the only build for TB are: full ice, full fire (which sucks beacuse of the bug but is still somewhat playable), rain of ice + permafrost + frost nova + fireball hybrid, and rain of ice + permafrost + fireball + fire nova (but the previous hybrid is usually better)

i would really like to try hybrid builds that take fire aura but in the current buggy situation it's just not worth it.

another issue that could help make other hybrid builds more playable is reducing the time it takes to switch from ice to fire. currently it takes alot longer to switch from ice to fire then it takes to switch from fire to ice, which means you usually prefer to go into battle in fire, use fire spells, then switch to ice and stay there since switching back is too long, which is another reason why you spend most of your time in ice. Is there any reason why switching to fire takes so long anyway??

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July 22, 2009 3:03:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Change Foul Grasp to 1.5/2/2.5 seconds of stun. Makes it a smidge weaker early on, and makes it worthwhile to get more points in later on.

I agree, right now taking anything behind foul grasp 1 is a waste of skill points. maybe also increase the amount of health drained for higher levels of fould graps.

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