Random choice doesn't allow doubles

By on July 6, 2009 5:06:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

XaviorsFist

Join Date 12/2008
+11

I just played a game in which 2 of the opposing players were random and one was UB. I myself was playing rook and BOTH randoms ended up being regulus.

Spit snipe snipe DEAD running into mines like crazy and the like.

All I'm asking is to stop doubling with randoms. Maybe integrate into the next patch. This isn't an urgent issue but i would like to see it resolved.

No need to start into some balance anger war with me about reg mines not being OP i'm just saying that in this case it was extremely annoying.

Locked Post 24 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 5:09:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That wouldn't be completely random then, would it?   I agree though it'd be fun to set up a 4v4 as all random with no duplicates at all.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 5:13:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm more concerned about each team. Now doubles across the whole game wouldn't be annoying but double regulus or double rook or even triple regulus on a large map could be VERY ANNOYING. Borderline impossible to beat. Between triple snipes and 9 mines in an area i'd just quit.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 5:25:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

THIS POST WAS MADE FOR ANOTHER THREAD - EXCUSE DISCREPENCIES

 

First - OP wants this randomizer to not put duplicate demigods on the same team

  • Making it randomize based on current choice takes away the random factor. If I didn't want to play with DOUCHBAG8 I'd pick the same demigod as him, and bang, the randomizer fails because it wasn't random because if it worked like you said then it would separate us.
  • NOTHING is wrong with duplicates - two spits is the same as one spit and a hammer slam. It's not the two spits that killed you, it was coordination by the two players - both using their main damaging ability.
  • This game has counters - that is good, but the randomizer shouldn't pick the teammates based on this (see point 1). Counters allow you to create a better team if the other team is oblivious and won't change their demigod picks - counters allow better strategy in game when both teams have counters of each other.
  • NOTHING IS WRONG WITH DUPLICATE DEMIGODS
  • Having two of the same demigod does not increase or decrease the odds of having a better or worse counter. Odds of having the same demigod(if random) are 1/64 - odds the other team has two of the demigod that is your direct counter are 1/64

Are you still with me? Ok, so for our sake, let's say regulus is rook's counter and oak is ub's counter(all opinionated here)

odds of having a regulus oak team - 1/64 (1/8 chance for reg times 1/8 for oak) and the odds of having a demigod team that they are counters too are 1/64 as well.

 

OMG same odds as the duplicate demigods.

 

BUT WAIT - you can change your demigods. So not only do the odds not matter because you can both get teams you like, if they did matter the odds are equal

 

 

 

AND if you are saying two of the same demigod is overpowered then here's the math from earlier proving that theory wrong

 

Basic math, are you ready?

x = Rook

2x = two Rooks

Let's say z = Sedna and y = TB

Theoretically, z=x=y=a=d=g=h(All demigods are fairly balanced, of course some are better against others, but in teams, it should be fair)

So 2x = z+y

Not to you, you think 2x > z+y

Since z and y are equal,(in theory they all are balacned well, I'd say go to stats but they are broke), they are now represented by only y

You think 2x > 2y

or

x > y

 

Essentially saying that the duplicate demigod, Rook in this case, is overpowered regardless of how many people on your team are him. It's not a matter of having two or more. However, we could say any demigod was the duplicate, so to you, every demigod needs a nerf.

 

So when people say duplicatess are unfair, it doesn't make sense.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 6:37:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

just did a 2v2 random... the other team was 2 regulas vs me (rook) + torchbearer.  My team won, though it was very difficult at the end due to mine spam.  I like the mix of random Dgs and being forced to play against dups... its not really that bad, you. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 6:37:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting woca,
So when people say duplicatess are unfair, it doesn't make sense.

 

Rather than debate whether duplicates are fair or not, let's just acknowledge that a good percentage of the community doesn't want them on the same team and request the game provide an option to prevent it when there's randomization of demigods/teams.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 6:45:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting bhassink,

Quoting woca, reply 3So when people say duplicatess are unfair, it doesn't make sense.
 

Rather than debate whether duplicates are fair or not, let's just acknowledge that a good percentage of the community doesn't want them on the same team and request the game provide an option to prevent it when there's randomization of demigods/teams.

 

what stats do you have showing a GOOD PERCENTAGE want this? you made a post, and the op, and xavier

 

so if I get three people to say QoT is op, she should get a nerf?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 7:18:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes. 

heh.  I doubt you'll convince anyone that dups are ok (i like em just fine though) even with a logical explanation.  Easiest solution - don't use the random feature if you don't want to risk duplicates, as *gasp* it could happen.  If the devs can add some feature like the OP requests, then super, but I do think we'd all rather they work on something else...

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 7:22:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't see doubles as an issue, but it would be nice to have the option to create a completely random game without doubles, just as cwsault mentioned.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 7:31:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't see the doubles as an issue but make it so it may have 1/2 the chance to pick a demigod of the same type as someone else on your team instead of a completely new one. Make it less likely or something. I like playing variety not against 2 demigods that are annoying together.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 7:42:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

random is random.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 8:26:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I would like the "semi random" feature, having the option doesnt hurt anyone because if you dont want to use it then join don't join the game.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 9:52:51 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting woca,
what stats do you have showing a GOOD PERCENTAGE want this? you made a post, and the op, and xavier so if I get three people to say QoT is op, she should get a nerf?

Sure...  Take a look at the multiplayer history of a random selection of players and see how often you find a custom game with duplicates on the same team.  The data is there if you would like to compute the actual values, but I'm very confident in my assertion that it's a "good percentage" where there are intentionally no duplicates.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 10:04:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting bhassink,

Quoting woca, reply 6what stats do you have showing a GOOD PERCENTAGE want this? you made a post, and the op, and xavier so if I get three people to say QoT is op, she should get a nerf?
 

Easy...  Take a look at the multiplayer history of a random selection of players and see how often you find a custom game with duplicates on the same team.  I am confident it is low percentage.

 

again, you have no hard proof of anything - you are 'confident' . well guess what, I'm confident you are wrong, bam, in your face

even if your were right, which you are not sure of, what does that comment show? nothing, it doesn't say people don't like dups. it shows that in that match they played, they chose different demigods. it doesn;t say why, and there are so many things that go into choosing a demigod - the players, what they like, their opponents, their opponents demigods, allies demigod, what map, and heck, then they could choose  randomly or just play someone cause they like them, not because it would be a better demigod choice

 

 

every single post of yours, in this thread and your own, has yet to support your argument that dups are bad and shouldn't be in the game. i'm starting to consider whether you are a troll or not

 

EDIT - reply to your edit

IN THE STATS THERE IS NO WAY TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WERE NO DUPLICATES INTENTIONALLY OR BY COINCIDENCE. if you want to try and determine that from the data, go right ahead.... go pm each player about the match and ask why there were no dups

i honestly think you are a troll now. do you even try to form a somewhat believable argument with support?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 10:41:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Woca please restrain yourself i didn't want to cause controversy that duplicates are bad or anything. But i would just like the host to have a feature that he could turn off and on that makes it so randoms CANNOT duplicate team members. I don't like having a team of all the same player because you know what that means. Theres a balance issue because obviously that player is good enough that 3 people are playing him.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 10:56:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting XaviorsFist,
Woca please restrain yourself i didn't want to cause controversy that duplicates are bad or anything. But i would just like the host to have a feature that he could turn off and on that makes it so randoms CANNOT duplicate team members. I don't like having a team of all the same player because you know what that means. Theres a balance issue because obviously that player is good enough that 3 people are playing him.

 

my problem is with bhassink, not you , sorry if i offended you

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 6, 2009 11:50:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Look woca, in almost every custom game I've played, if two or more players choose the same demigod, they're asked to change or leave.  In looking at the custom games of several other players, I also found very few cases of duplicates on the same team. I don't know how you can say it was anything other than intentional since players choose the team composition.

Regardless of whether I think duplicates are bad, or you think they're just fine, empirically there's sufficient evidence showing that teams are rarely composed with duplicates and any optional randomization should support that model.

Edit: An before you bother with another attack, I don't plan on trying to satisfy your request for hard data.  I have better things to do.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 7, 2009 12:26:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Guys... simple civil tone.  OP made a request to have some sort of option added if possible to not have duplicate demigods.  I personally enjoy playing against and with duplicates, but many disagree.  I doubt anyone has problems with the devs adding some option so duplicates wouldn't be allowed, but I would personally much rather they work on something else... replays... those 2 new demigods, etc.  We did get a new WORKING feature today.  Have some fun with it if you can.  And if you hate it, then don't join random demigod games as you currently could end up with duplicates. 

Theres a balance issue because obviously that player is good enough that 3 people are playing him.

I personally would have a 4v4 regulus war just because it sounds fun... not because reg is the greatest player in the game. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 7, 2009 11:16:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting bhassink,

Edit: An before you bother with another attack, I don't plan on trying to satisfy your request for hard data.  I have better things to do.

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's because you have no proof, like every other post you have made. Please stop posting,"oh well I think there is data to support me..."

 

When you choose a random demigod, you are getting a random one, no small font, when your opponents choose one, you know what you are getting into. so if you wanted to avoid duplicates ask them not to do random. but there is no reason to avoid duplicates, nothing is wrong with them, as shown by my large post. i could seee you being upset in a random demigod match because they got two ub and you got a reg and a rook, but hey, that's your fault for playing in the random demigod game

 

as for the topic, again, i see no problem with dups and the randomizer should not choose based on other demigods, at least not as it's default. i wouldn't mind an option to choose whom to choose between, then an option to avoid dups. but like pacov said, many more things need fixing imo

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 7, 2009 5:11:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting woca,


my problem is with bhassink, not you , sorry if i offended you

I know it wasn't. But the main part of my post wasn't to solve balance issues it was to add the idea of an option that could be turned on and off so doubling is either allowed, less likely, very unlikely, and not at all with random.

 

My suggestion is to make it chance based. So less likely makes it so it's half as likely to choose a demigod chosen on their team. Very unlikely would be a forth and not at all would be no doubles.

This would please everyone. People who don't mind could leave it on. People who want variety could turn it up depending on preferance. I just don't want 2 regs on a team chosen with a 3rd random that also gets played as reg. Either it could end up really bad for them and they get slaughtered because of lack of variance or they end up completely slaughtering the competition due to them being better on a certain map.

I wouldn't probally use this often either. Even the i'd maybe only have it as less likely. But it would be there for those who want it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 7, 2009 5:18:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Woca, let me make sure I have this right.  There seem to be two related points of contention...

1) Your disputing my assertion that the majority of custom games, where players control team composition, intentionally do not have duplicate demigods on the same team, and want me to prove this isn't just a coincidence.

If so, this is just plain petulant.  If you would care to reveal what name you play under, we can examine your own game history and see if your experience is so completely different from my own and others.

2) You believe that there's nothing wrong with duplicates.

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.  I think the analysis you provided is over-simplified, and that there are cases where team balance is skewed by duplicates.  In any case, it is irrelevant in light of the community preference (be it rational or otherwise) for teams with no duplicates.

Lastly, and I think we at least agree on this, any proposed mechanism for randomized teams, and variations on its behavior regarding duplicates, should be optional, allowing the player to better know what they are getting into and avoid wasting their time and that of the other players in the match.

I don't understand why you are so worked up about things I've said.  Chill out, you'll be happier and live longer.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 7, 2009 5:37:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I feel sorry for Woca, having to post common sense over and over on half the forums...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 7, 2009 6:35:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pseudomelon,
I feel sorry for Woca, having to post common sense over and over on half the forums...

 

it can be difficult at times, but we must persevere

 

ps, my in game name is woca....(ain't that weird)

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/357804/player/15313/

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/353955/player/15313/

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/634325/player/15313/

 

i have around 27ish games documented and a lot of them dont show all the stats( i prefer LAN, as you can see my last two games were with ausmanpa, he couldnt connect online until  recently so we'd use hamachi)

 

so since half those games dont have good stats and only show my name, 1 in 4 games i  have dups on my team or other. you may think that is low, but when the random possibilty is 1/8 that my teammate has same demigod(1/64 if we each randomly choose), my 1/4 is above average. sometimes i prefer dups it looks like, or my enemies do. but what does this stat mean - nothing but the plain fact dups aren't imbalanced in anyway, and should not need an option to be removed or have a mandate removing them. sometimes i want dups to counter enemy, sometimes i don't think that is best outlet, but as i posted with my math, dups aren't op, it's just a matter of whether i want to counter the enemy with  a team composiiton with dups or if i just dont care about it and play with dups anyway

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 7, 2009 7:11:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting woca,

so since half those games dont have good stats and only show my name, 1 in 4 games i  have dups on my team or other. you may think that is low, but when the random possibilty is 1/8 that my teammate has same demigod(1/64 if we each randomly choose), my 1/4 is above average. sometimes i prefer dups it looks like, or my enemies do. but what does this stat mean - nothing but the plain fact dups aren't imbalanced in anyway, and should not need an option to be removed or have a mandate removing them. sometimes i want dups to counter enemy, sometimes i don't think that is best outlet, but as i posted with my math, dups aren't op, it's just a matter of whether i want to counter the enemy with  a team composiiton with dups or if i just dont care about it and play with dups anyway

Actually if you both random, it's still a 1/8 chance. You can see this by considering the chance of you getting Demi X, and your friend as well (which is 1/64, as you stated) and then multiplying by 8, the total amount of Demis in the game, which reverts it back to 1/8. In other words, (1/(8*8)) * 8 = 1/8. But I'm just nitpicking

I've killed the infamous Double Spit UB, as well as Double Regulus Sniper teams easily enough. Don't take these people seriously. (I'm still waiting for double Rooks, but people seem to dislike him. Why do you all hate rook?! j/k. Please don't flame me.)

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 8, 2009 12:30:52 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pseudomelon,

Quoting woca, reply 22
so since half those games dont have good stats and only show my name, 1 in 4 games i  have dups on my team or other. you may think that is low, but when the random possibilty is 1/8 that my teammate has same demigod(1/64 if we each randomly choose), my 1/4 is above average. sometimes i prefer dups it looks like, or my enemies do. but what does this stat mean - nothing but the plain fact dups aren't imbalanced in anyway, and should not need an option to be removed or have a mandate removing them. sometimes i want dups to counter enemy, sometimes i don't think that is best outlet, but as i posted with my math, dups aren't op, it's just a matter of whether i want to counter the enemy with  a team composiiton with dups or if i just dont care about it and play with dups anyway
Actually if you both random, it's still a 1/8 chance. You can see this by considering the chance of you getting Demi X, and your friend as well (which is 1/64, as you stated) and then multiplying by 8, the total amount of Demis in the game, which reverts it back to 1/8. In other words, (1/(8*8)) * 8 = 1/8. But I'm just nitpicking

I've killed the infamous Double Spit UB, as well as Double Regulus Sniper teams easily enough. Don't take these people seriously. (I'm still waiting for double Rooks, but people seem to dislike him. Why do you all hate rook?! j/k. Please don't flame me.)

 

oops, the odds of you each getting a specific demigod, lets say reg, is 1/64, if you do it using random

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108433  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000672   Page Render Time:

Stardock Magazine | Register | Online Privacy Policy | Terms of Use

Copyright © 2016 Stardock Entertainment and Gas Powered Games. Demigod is a trademark of Gas Powered Games. All rights reserved. All other trademarks and copyrights are the properties of their respective owners. Windows, the Windows Vista Start button and Xbox 360 are trademarks of the Microsoft group of companies, and 'Games for Windows' and the Windows Vista Start button logo are used under license from Microsoft. © 2012 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. All rights reserved. AMD, the AMD Arrow logo and combinations thereof are trademarks of Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.