DPS number crunching: Rook vs. Unclean Beast (excel heavy)

By on June 30, 2009 10:54:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Aroddo

Join Date 04/2009
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So, who is the melee master?

And what matters most - attack rate or weapon damage?

I crunched some numbers and came to the conclusion, that IT DEPENDS. But see for yourself.

I'm using this table as base for calculations:

(Correction: Rook's starting armor is 240 - not 440 like stated in the above table.)

 

This results in the following data sheets:

First conclusion, UB starts better but Rook catches up by level 8 and clearly surpasses UB.

 

But since there is such a thing as skills the first conclusion won't be the same as the final one.

I'll concentrate on the passive ones for starters.

Let's take a look at Rook first.

He gets a massive weapon damage boost through God hand (+150 max) and surprisingly an enormous dps-boost through his shoulder mounts.

Yep, thats correct. Just two levels of shoulder mounted weapons increase Rook's dps by 218. Keep in mind that the archers spread their damage around though. But in a clean duel vs only one target all archers shoot on that single target. Trebs don't add that much, but they have an astounding range.

Total additional damage:

  • 150 weapon damage
  • 268,5 dps

Now let's check out Unclean Beast

UB has Ooze which increases his dps by 140. It also lowers enemy attack rate by 40% (assuming max ooze). Sadly it also increases the enemy dps by 50.

Inner Beast increases movement speed and attack rate by 10% at max level.

There's also bestial wrath, which increases weapon damage by up to 65% for 10 seconds. It's an active skill, though, but it fits well into an Ooze UB melee build and 10 seconds is plenty.

Total additional damage:

  • 140 dps
  • 10% attack rate
  • 65% weapon damage when using bestial wrath

Extra effecs:

  • -40% enemy attack rate
  • +40 dps for enemies

So, let's put it all together:

First without Bestial Wrath

and with Bestial Wrath

 

If you look at the DPS chart (the only one that really matters) then you can see how thoroughly UB outperforms the mighty Rook in melee. Admittedly the comparison is a bit misleading because Bestial Wrath is an active skill and it's only working for a limited time, so we should calculate some active skill damage from Rook into the equation, too.

For example a medium level 4 tower farm constisting of 4 towers, each shooting for 190 damage every 2 seconds, averaging at 380 dps for rook. That would put rook clearly in the lead again (so much for "towers suck at late game"). Towers have the same problem as archers, though, meaning that attacking in a wave of creeps diverts most of the damage from the prime target to the cannonfodder.

Anyway, this little side-calculation shows why Rook shouldn't stray too far from his tower farm, especially if UB is around.

 

But UB has a skill that can tip the balance to UBs side again: Acclimation

When an enemy deals 500 or more damage to Unclean Beast, it takes 40% less damage for 5 seconds

A quick look at the weapon damage chart shows that a level 17 Rook with God Strength III triggers Acclimation every time ... and thus nearly halving ALL DAMAGE dealt to UB. And it's been known to happen that some rooks buy items to enhance weapon damage, "aiding" UB even as soon as level 15.

The following chart only calculates passive skills and factors acclimation in.

Which seems to leave us apparently with a strange recommendation: Don't increase weapon damage beyond 500 when fighting endgame UB.

One last chart with just passive skills shows that Rook leads the dps race even with God Strength II, albeit by a smaller margin.

However this does not account for armor. Since UB is also the most heavily armored DG and most sensible builds focus on defense & health items, it's unlikely that you'll ever repeatedly hit with more than 500 damage per attack ... unless you stack critical hit items. I think this is the only instance where buying Ashkandor is not the best decision you can make. And Hammer Slam should only be used as finisher, not a starter.

Speaking of armor: Note that we have two damage types - mitigated and non-mitigated damage. The first one is affected by armor, the second (that's usually skill damage) completely ignores it. Spit, for example, deals non-mitigated damage while bestial wrath simply enhances your weapon damage. And that's mitigated damage. That means that you always have to factor in a certain amount of enemy armor when calculating the final dps.

And in conclusion?

Weeeeell .... if you play Rook like UB then you'll lose, even if the stats say differently. UB is simply too fast for Rook to be hunted down. And bestial wrath adds enough damage to outlast rook without his tower farm.

When inside his tower farm, a wrathed UB still has the upper hand if he follows the creeps in. But attacking Rook solo inside his farm is most likely suicide.

Or short: It depends.

 

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June 30, 2009 11:21:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

LoL, boring day at work?

 

Nice number crunching.

 

still would say the best player wins. How do you factor in Boulder Roll, Hammer Slam or Foul Grasp interrupt?

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June 30, 2009 11:36:50 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well one thing that this doesn't take into effect is armor. I'm not sure if Acclimation is effected by armor though. But as a combat Rook I have never done more than 500 actual damage to any player late game even if stats say I do 600-800 dmg. Armor is too big of a factor by then.

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June 30, 2009 11:43:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Pretty useful, I didn't know the DPS of the shoulder upgrades before.

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June 30, 2009 11:56:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting regabond,
Well one thing that this doesn't take into effect is armor. I'm not sure if Acclimation is effected by armor though. But as a combat Rook I have never done more than 500 actual damage to any player late game even if stats say I do 600-800 dmg. Armor is too big of a factor by then.

That's right, I totally forgot armor.

Looks like there's no chance of triggering acclimation with standard attacks after all.

Unless we count in critical hits, of course.

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June 30, 2009 11:56:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Rook doesn't need melee for his damage.  He can run around behind towers and still tear things up with a trebuchet.  The fact that he also does high melee damage is sort of after the fact.  Not that he has the speed to kite forever, but if we are going to number crunch this out then you have to factor in armor and health of both, along with the fact that abilities (hammer slam) are unmitigated by armor.  I bet all my money on rook if UB is going to just charge in..

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June 30, 2009 12:22:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Fucking awesome post. +1 Karma for the effort.

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June 30, 2009 12:34:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Seanner27,
Rook doesn't need melee for his damage.  He can run around behind towers and still tear things up with a trebuchet.  The fact that he also does high melee damage is sort of after the fact.  Not that he has the speed to kite forever, but if we are going to number crunch this out then you have to factor in armor and health of both, along with the fact that abilities (hammer slam) are unmitigated by armor.  I bet all my money on rook if UB is going to just charge in..

The trebuchet deals 50 damage per second. It adds up but that alone won't win you the game.

Rook really needs high melee to fight of other DGs because fleeing is not an option for him.

And I consiously restricted my calculations to just a few factors ... and look how many numbers that produces. I don't intend to play demigod inside of Excel (or rather OpenOffice). It's just interesting information.

But regarding Rook and UB: Rook has highest health and UB has highest armor ... probably evens out.

And I did include a small section regarding a medium tower farm. Hammer slam breaks dps flow, so I saved myself the bother to calculate that, too. But let's assume HS4+BR3 combo. Time cost about 2 seconds for 2100 unmitigated damage.
You trade 2 seconds of 541 mitigated dps vs 2 seconds of 1050 unmitigated dps every 15 seconds. Accounting for about 40% armor which unmitigated dps can ignore and spreading the dps boost over 15 seconds you get a relatively small dps boost ... about 115 dps. But it's burst damage, which further complicates calculation.

A 4 tower farm gets you 380 constantly. Higher dps than slam combo and easier to calculate.

So: Yes, I didn't include every possible detail. And no one ever will.

 

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June 30, 2009 12:38:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

*Looks at charts*

*Sees QoT*

Overall good post though with some interesting information.

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June 30, 2009 1:34:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Love the post, and I had never seen any info for the shoulder/head mounts.  That said, I CANNOT believe That the boost of trebuchet only increases damage by 1.  That's ridiculous. Can anyone who has cracked open the lua confirm this?

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June 30, 2009 2:46:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Very nice post Aroddo, I've learned stuff. But this is purely theorical, as it has been already said. Since Boulder / Slam is, imo, essential to Rook, where Bestial Wrath is sometimes totally inefficient to UB.

 

Nice excel anyway!

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June 30, 2009 2:55:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Do any good players use Bestial Wrath?

I've gatherd that it's skill non grata.

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June 30, 2009 3:15:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think acclicmation is imba.

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June 30, 2009 3:33:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

uh...what would happen if you factored in Spit instead of Bestial Wrath.

 

Wrath is like 100% useless and requires some absurdly high base weapon damage to outperform spit. last time i crunched numbers comparing those two skills i found that it takes something like 450 base weapon DPS (thats per second, not per swing) for Wrath to be better. in other words its not even close until you're already like level 18 with Ashkandor. skill is almost useless. 

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June 30, 2009 4:02:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Since you didn't take into account armor, you have to realize that UB beats out Rook a bit more because of that.

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June 30, 2009 4:09:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting transitive,
uh...what would happen if you factored in Spit instead of Bestial Wrath.

Wrath is like 100% useless and requires some absurdly high base weapon damage to outperform spit. last time i crunched numbers comparing those two skills i found that it takes something like 450 base weapon DPS (thats per second, not per swing) for Wrath to be better. in other words its not even close until you're already like level 18 with Ashkandor. skill is almost useless. 

The raw numbers actually favor bestial wrath - even without any items. Not counting armor.

one spit gives you 150 damage + 1500 over 10s. Thats 165 dps. Since you can spit every 7 seconds I assume that spit effect overlaps and stacks. If so then you get about 200 dps.

Bestial wrath increases a level 15 UB dps from 411 to 587 and a level 20 UB from 472 to 687. That's 176 and 215 dps increase.

Over a time period of 20/21 seconds (three spits or two wraths) the mana cost favors wrath by nearly 1000 mana.

But like always it's not that easy. Spit ignores armor while wrath doesn't. Wrath triggers on-hit effects, like life leech from items while spit doesn't. And so on.

It's just number crunching. I actually prefer spit because of it's versatility.

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June 30, 2009 4:56:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

leaving out armor is a massive oversight that makes the test not particularly useful. most DG's will have about 35% armor with just a Nimoth Chestguard. numbers near 45% are common if you've bought a larger armor piece. the armor effect alone gives enormous additional weight to Ooze and Spit and takes away a huge amount from Wrath and also from Rook's Shoulder Weapons. 

 

i'm also not sure what you've done in terms of figuring Wrath's gap between cooldown and duration. maybe you can clarify for me. did you measure just up time or did you take the whole cooldown period into account (in which case the skill DPS contribution is essentially halved)?

 

 

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June 30, 2009 5:07:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If you restrict the calculations to passive skills then armor doesn't matter that much. Both DGs have comparable armor/health stats and are roughly equivalent. Items can be bought by both, so they don't matter. Only when including non-mitigated skills you have to factor armor in.

 

And I just calculated the effect of 3 spits over 21 seconds and the effect of 2 wraths over 20 seconds. I forgot that wrath has a 15 second cooldown, though, so the dps will tip a bit into spit's favor. especially when considering armor, which I'm to lazy to do now.

Anyway, point is that including every skill and detail into those calculation still won't get you a perfect formula for winning.

But you can use those numbers as a start for more advanced considerations ...

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June 30, 2009 5:14:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

as much as i appreciate the hard work you've done, and the certain pieces of useful information that have come out of it (such as DPS contribution of shoulder upgrades on a single target), i don't at all think the comparisons of total DPS in your analysis are especially useful due to certain oversights. 

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June 30, 2009 5:34:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting transitive,
as much as i appreciate the hard work you've done, and the certain pieces of useful information that have come out of it (such as DPS contribution of shoulder upgrades on a single target), i don't at all think the comparisons of total DPS in your analysis are especially useful due to certain oversights. 

keep to the passive skill dps. In that case there are no oversights. The numbers are solid and the conditions where those numbers fail are pointed out.

So please don't demean me by praising only the one part that everyone can look up in the wiki.

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June 30, 2009 6:29:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i don't mean to demean you at all, its good work. but i think its fair to question the methodology. 

 

i tend to do my analysis slightly differently. your methodology was generally treating all damage as smooth continuous functions, which is close enough to get some good numbers from. but i don't like to do it this way just because the set isn't continuous, its really composed of lots of discreet "chunks" of damage. each one of these chunks can be given due considerations to the factors that will matter. Armor being a major factor for alot of those chunks. being within range or having enough mana being a major factor for certain other chunks. 

 

so when i do an analysis contemplating a broad question such as "who's the best at melee" i try to specify the question so as to more easily and concretely account for what's being measured. you've already got at that with your responses to me. if you just look at the passive stuff, ceteris paribus, there's some useful info in your presentation. there's also alot thats not useful. 

 

Rook in particular gets hard to analyze clearly because so much of his damage isn't under direct player control so ideal behavior is assumed. Unclean Beast on the other hand is VERY easy to analyze. everything can be accounted for at each moment in time under almost any circumstance. 

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June 30, 2009 6:54:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Above level 10, the biggest danger comes from the boulder roll + hammer slam imo. So when ub comes fight a rookie, make sure you have enough HP left. at 50 % HP, i'd recommend to retreat...

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June 30, 2009 7:44:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting transitive,
i don't mean to demean you at all, its good work. but i think its fair to question the methodology.

i tend to do my analysis slightly differently. your methodology was generally treating all damage as smooth continuous functions, which is close enough to get some good numbers from. but i don't like to do it this way just because the set isn't continuous, its really composed of lots of discreet "chunks" of damage. each one of these chunks can be given due considerations to the factors that will matter. Armor being a major factor for alot of those chunks. being within range or having enough mana being a major factor for certain other chunks.
 

so when i do an analysis contemplating a broad question such as "who's the best at melee" i try to specify the question so as to more easily and concretely account for what's being measured. you've already got at that with your responses to me. if you just look at the passive stuff, ceteris paribus, there's some useful info in your presentation. there's also alot thats not useful.

Rook in particular gets hard to analyze clearly because so much of his damage isn't under direct player control so ideal behavior is assumed. Unclean Beast on the other hand is VERY easy to analyze. everything can be accounted for at each moment in time under almost any circumstance. 

I am sorry, I overreacted.

What you say is exactly the problem when it came to calculate anything. Which is why I mostly restricted the sheets to passive skills with some active stuff splashed in. And even in the passive scenario not everything can be taken for granted, like the arrow tower damage distribution.

But Rook is one of the most interesting DGs to look at so this is the best attempt I could come up with. Sound numbers that won't survive first encounter with the enemy.

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June 30, 2009 9:19:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

transitive, you're amazing. You italicized ceteris paribus but you almost never capitalize the start of sentences. Yet you capitalize proper nouns.

 

Aroddo, I think the major thing you are ignoring in your assessment of Bestial Wrath is that it is purely mitigated damage. Thus, a straight comparison with the unmitigated damage of Spit is going to make things look strangely good in favour of Bestial Wrath. Even assuming just 35% reduction, from one decent piece that contributes Armour at a high lvl, turns the 215 DPS increase from Bestial Wrath at lvl 20 into ~ 140 DPS (215*.65 = 139.75). And that's assuming a lvl 20 Bestial Wrath UB that has a starting DPS of 472. I don't have access to a lot of reference material at the moment, but I believe that is assuming a LOT of +damage gear.

 

My broader concern is a possible confusion over Bestial Wrath. It's bad. I'm sure this has been stated dozens of times, but it's always good to say it again nearer to the top of the forum. Early game, it's terrible due to DPS being low, and due to armour stacking being awesome, it's also terrible late game. Just terrible all around.

 

Though I have to say, I quite like this post. Good jorb.

 

A side note: I'm curious how rounding works for those arrows. It becomes much more meaningful when you're shooting off, what, 24 arrows per second w/ Tower of Light? That only do 7 damage each? I would hope 'round math', or even better for Rook, round up. Any lua masters around with the answer?

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June 30, 2009 10:37:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

let good grammar not be wasted on meaningless style elements such as leading caps. Strunk & White got nothing on me. i also tend to avoid capping the first person pronoun because its just a dumb pronoun, its not really my name. 

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July 1, 2009 3:18:19 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting the_iron_troll,


Aroddo, I think the major thing you are ignoring in your assessment of Bestial Wrath is that it is purely mitigated damage. Thus, a straight comparison with the unmitigated damage of Spit is going to make things look strangely good in favour of Bestial Wrath. Even assuming just 35% reduction, from one decent piece that contributes Armour at a high lvl, turns the 215 DPS increase from Bestial Wrath at lvl 20 into ~ 140 DPS (215*.65 = 139.75). And that's assuming a lvl 20 Bestial Wrath UB that has a starting DPS of 472. I don't have access to a lot of reference material at the moment, but I believe that is assuming a LOT of +damage gear.

 If you take a closer look at the smaller dps tables then you can see the modifiers. The 472 dps consists of the Inner Beast enhanced melee weapon damage plus the constant Ooze effect. The other table shows Bestial Wrath modifying weapon damage. And again, Ooze damage is simply added to the total.

And yeah, it's simplifying things when I bunch mitigated and non-mitigated damage together.

Quoting the_iron_troll,

My broader concern is a possible confusion over Bestial Wrath. It's bad. I'm sure this has been stated dozens of times, but it's always good to say it again nearer to the top of the forum. Early game, it's terrible due to DPS being low, and due to armour stacking being awesome, it's also terrible late game. Just terrible all around.

Point. I'll make a mention of it.

Quoting the_iron_troll,

A side note: I'm curious how rounding works for those arrows. It becomes much more meaningful when you're shooting off, what, 24 arrows per second w/ Tower of Light? That only do 7 damage each? I would hope 'round math', or even better for Rook, round up. Any lua masters around with the answer?

I don't know. I don't even know if armor is a factor against normal towers. Would be nice to know. But it seems that minimum damage is always 1.

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