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Preparing for Demigod v1.1

By on June 23, 2009 4:12:49 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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Sometime tomorrow we expect to release Demigod v1.1.  This is definitely the biggest update since the initial release of the game. Gas Powered Games has been burning the midnight oil to make a fantastic update!

The full highlights will be released tomorrow but here are a few things:

Team conceding will be in. Random demigod option is in. Updated AI is in. Reduced experience and gold from killing priests and angels is in. Heart of life has been nerfed. Tighter integration with the new online system is in for custom games.

Now, one of the things we read on the forums are suggestions on how to keep the community growing.  Let me touch on that here a bit.

First off, since the connectivity issues have been largely resolved, the number of open games sitting around has dropped dramatically. I’ve seen people post that this means the game must be losing popularity.

Technically speaking, the popularity of a game has no bearing on the # of open games. The # of open games is a function of how long it takes to get a game going. Ideally, a person creates a custom game, it fills up and gets started as fast as possible.

The only change is that now that connectivity actually works right, people can set up games quickly whereas at launch, well, let’s charitably say it took longer to get a game set up…

We are going to put up a page that graphs out the online population so people know when the best times to play are. 

What determines the success of a game online is how many people there are online to play with at a given time. And that number has steadily been going up – at least since connectivity got fixed.

The Road Map

As many of you know, I talk to Gas Powered Games every day.  Now, I have seen it argued that game developers will release a game, put out a patch or two and then abandon it.  I want to assure you that this is not the path for Demigod.  We believe the game needs long-term love and care to keep it growing over time.

While we are pleased to have another sales hit on our hands, we recognize that Demigod is different from other games in that it has the potential to keep selling strongly into the long-term.

This past week we nailed down with Gas Powered Games the plans for Demigod v1.2. The 3 big items are:

  • Robust Replay support.
  • Native modding support.
  • Clan support.

We are also discussing passionately the development of more Demigods. GPG has come up with a really cool modding system for Demigod that would practically make mods be very similar to game options in game. It looks pretty sweet.

My 2 cents

Now, speaking just for myself, not even for Stardock here just my 2 cents as a gamer on what Demigod needs to keep growing. If I were the “god” of Demgiod and budget was no concern, this is what we’d see:

  1. New Demigod released every 60 days
  2. New map released every 60 days
  3. New favor items added every 30 days
  4. Pantheon and Skirmish experience enhanced to let players choose team joins
  5. Pantheon and skirmish would center around a particular player and add people to that joined game.
  6. Maps that support 1 on 1 games.
  7. Players could select the team size preference in pantheon/skirmish games (from 1 to 5 players).
  8. Ability to grab a group of friends or clan members to get into a game from outside the game.
  9. Native voice over IP.
  10. Significant game play enhancements every 90 days (i.e. some new game element).
  11. A robust way to control who you play with when you’re playing non-competitively.
  12. Continual evolution of balance and game play.

Those are the kinds of things I’d like to see. But budgets are finite of course and resources are more finite still.  Sometimes there is “the guy” who is critical to make something happen but he’s not available to do X right now.  I can tell ya, only a network administrator could even begin to adequately explain what mountains had to be moved in order for us to step in and build, largely from scratch, in 30 days a whole new multiplayer connectivity system that handles direct connect, NAT connect, and international proxy hosting on the fly.  We had to basically take our top developers from across all projects and put them on this project. That is a feat that can’t be easily duplicated (and it was why I was so directly involved because I had to “steal” core developers from Impulse, Object Desktop, WindowBlinds, and Elemental to make it happen). 

So one of the things to bear in mind is that recognizing what needs to be done and being able to do it are often two different things. If sales continue as strongly as they are now, I think we’ll be able to do most of what’s listed up there but only time will tell. Like I said, I’m just speaking for myself and looking at Demigod in a vacuum.  But you can rest assured that we’ll do as many of them as we can and push for GPG to get in as many as they can get in or let us take care of it for them. It’s not as straight forward as it seems though.

I’m a big believer in treating games as assets. They can live long into the future. I played Total Annihilation for years after it was released. I’m sure there are people here who are like me in that way.  Heck, I still code on Galactic Civilizations II’s AI on occasion for enjoyment.

So anyway, version v1.1 is about 24 hours away from release. We’re very excited to see how people like it and we hope it’s the first of many updates.

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June 23, 2009 10:16:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I like the idea of AI demigods that replace dropped players not providing gold/XP.

Any opinions on that?

Frog,

While I do think that currently AI are feeders and hamper the game, giving absolutely no xp and no gold is simply way to over board. At this stage in the game kills are huge as far as gold goes. The balance of power could shift so fast it would not be funny since those demigods could suicide into towers, or push a lane by themselves and there would be no benefit at all in fighting them aside from not allowing them to remain there.

I myself am one for either of the following...

1. If AI is not improved then AI should get a bonus to gold and XP allowing them to lvl faster (At the same speed really because they suck) as players. Some games do this as AI difficulty scales to make up for the AI's lack of adaptation. (I do really like this one myself, but it is far more fair then giving no gold or xp.)

2. Have the AI players removed, all their items sold at value and the gold + maybe a little more split between the remaining players. This eliminates a feeder and gives the team that is down a player a slight advantage in one area of the game while giving them a handicap in the other.

3. Get more robust and more intelligent AI. Simply put the AI is beyond worthless, they actually hinder you from winning (which everyone knows).

Giving no gold and no xp and staying in the game is a HUGE handicap IMO for the opposing team. Id wagers half, or a % of the total would be fair, or closer to it but none is overboard.

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June 23, 2009 10:40:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Can we still hope for some new maps with 3 separate teams?  (maybe king of the hill?)

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June 23, 2009 11:01:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

About the no gold/XP on AI option.


What if the other team decides not to concede and you're left with only AI? Broken.

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June 23, 2009 11:12:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,
This past week we nailed down with Gas Powered Games the plans for Demigod v1.2. The 3 big items are:
Native modding support.

One of the reasons good games last a long time is because of their modability; for instance the unreal turnement series and half-life series. So, this is a very good thing. However, there's a big, big difference between those games and demigod. They're client-server with a heavy ratio of clients to servers, and demigod is p2p with a much lower player count per game. The problem being, in ut or 1/2life, you join a modified server, don't like what's in there, and leave. In demigod, you wait for maybe five minutes for the game to start, find out the host set up the game to give himself a massive advantage, and either take a loss or disconnect.

Long story short, how is this going to be handled to avoid greifing?

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June 24, 2009 12:33:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Polynomial,
About the no gold/XP on AI option.


What if the other team decides not to concede and you're left with only AI? Broken.

 

This is a good point, but another issue is that most people prolly don't want to bother finishing off an all-AI team; otherwise, they'd have been playing a compstomp to start.  Something needs to be done to check when the entire opposing team has quit and either award automatic victory or allow the other team to vote on in (basically the opposite of team concede), regardless of what's done with XP/gold from killing AIs.

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June 24, 2009 1:07:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Solace, you would have to install the mod yourself to play, and the mods are centralised and monitored by SD/GPG under the proposed system iirc.

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June 24, 2009 1:11:33 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I like the idea of AI demigods that replace dropped players not providing gold/XP.

Any opinions on that?

It would penalize the team that didn't have droppers.  Which is unfair.

There's really no way to accomodate a team when a player drops.  They're just going to lose.  It sucks, but that's what happens when people drop in the middle of a game.  That's what happens when a player drops in a Starcraft match.  You can't accomodate it.

The best solution is for the rest of the players to leave, and the game to end when there are no human players on one side.  A shame, but the way it has to be.

Having AI players replace dropped players is NICE though.   Because if the team is actually winning handily or about to win... replacing a dropped player with even a shoddy AI may be enough to secure victory.  This way the team that is screwed isn't necessarily screwed out of a sure victory.

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June 24, 2009 1:21:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting woppin,
Solace, you would have to install the mod yourself to play, and the mods are centralised and monitored by SD/GPG under the proposed system iirc.

So, it'd start like a new game, and you'd only be able to play against a tiny subset of people? Those rarely do well... being able to just download a new map would be cool, the problem is how to handle someone from giving himself five staring flags or something...

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June 24, 2009 1:23:40 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

After reading so many comments about AI replacement, I am convinced: zero gold/xp would not be good.  half or 1/3rd would work out better.  I've been in a couple games where we did win (after a teammate dropped), "regaurdless" of the AI feeding the team; if you have most the towers down, the AI can actually be a decent distraction for the enemy, and with 50-25% gold/xp per kill, that AI would be far better than no player at all imo.

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June 24, 2009 1:26:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Kitkun,
Seems kinda cheap that one side could get an extra damage/capture source for nothing.

 

What are you talking about? The team just lost a human player. 1/3 XP and gold sounds like a fair percentage.

 

And lol@me for being the one to get Frogboy to notice this.

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June 24, 2009 1:29:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If sales continue as strongly as they are now, I think we’ll be able to do most of what’s listed up there but only time will tell.

 

Let me preface this by saying the amount of attention that stardock has given the game given it's rough launch is unprecedented in the history of video games (at least in my experience)  That i really do appreciate.

 

That being said, the items in frog boy's list are basically items i feel should have been in the game when i bought it.  Now that's in the past, and I'm ok with waiting, and i know sales dictate all, yet i must admit, it seems a tad backwards.  What im trying to say, is that as much as i appreciate how professional and honest stardock has been about demigod, if i had to do it again, i probably wouldn't pick it up in it's current state, and only would if most of the said items in the list were implemented.  Which begs the question, how does stardock expect to continue sales, if the hopeful features are merely contingent upon future sales?

 

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June 24, 2009 1:30:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That's what I was wondering. Don't updates=sales, not sales=updates?

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June 24, 2009 2:12:52 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i want the patch now ASAP

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June 24, 2009 3:01:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's Monday, where is the patch?  Guess I'll check again at 12:02. . .

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June 24, 2009 3:07:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Seeing as everyone seems to have a different view about dropped players, cant custom games come with an extra option to choose what happens? e.g. No AI take over, 0% reward, 50% reward, 100% reward for killing them if they stay? Would that solve the problem or just create more bickering in custom games over what is set?

My issue is, seeing as someone has likely fed the other team anyway before they quit, anything other than 0% reward is simply going to compound the already losing teams woes.

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June 24, 2009 4:09:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hi Frogboy,

nice journal, as always.

I think a bot should give 20% of normal XP/Gold +3% per level (so a max of 80%) to simulate its increase in usefullness. I mean a lvl 20 Demigod, bot or not, will eat your defenses. So he is usefull.

Also, you might look into DLC for Demigod, like you did with Sins.

Release the first 2 Demigods for free (only 'cause the community takes it as given at this point).

After that point release packages, including 2 Demigods (one light, one dark), but no maps. Price point could be about 5$ to 10$.

Maps should still be released free, or you will split the community.

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June 24, 2009 5:17:58 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I don't own the game (yet), but I"d say that removing any rewards from killing the AI would be unwise. It could just make players attempt to avoid the AI bot- why risk losing health?

I'd suggest around the rate of 1/3 the XP/gold of killing a human player. It would make the reward high enough to encourage players to still take out the AI demigod but not so high that it winds up being farmed for XP. Perhaps a little higher if you made AI demigods level up faster/get more gold, so while you can get more XP out of them, if you get killed, that demigod is going to power up fast.

Also, just out of curiousity...does Stardock ever intend on releasing sales numbers? I ask because in one of your recent posts, you called the sales "mixed" but now you're saying it's a sales hit. Just curious how you define a hit.

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June 24, 2009 6:16:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

wow,great job,i cant wait for this patch,incredible work guys!tnx a lot! Demigod Owns!

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June 24, 2009 7:00:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

About playing with AIs:

Well, imo gold/exp for killing AI should be much less that is it now. Like 1/4 of original. Yesteday I got game, where AI was killed 16 TIMES in a single game (all other players died like 3-4 times). Just imagine, how much the opposite team gained from killing that single AI. The worst thing about AI is, he will try to fight even 1 vs 3 when he has full hp. Of course 3 demigods will kill 1 in a matter of 3-4 seconds, so he have no chances to retreat at all. AI should analyze how many hostile demigods are near him, comparing to allied demigods, and not attack more than 1 demigod if he is alone (otherwise its just easy cash for opponent).

Also, I think the team, who lost human player, should gain a little more gold every second. Let's say additional 4 gold / sec for playing with AI. AI don't think, so it's obviously HUGE disadvantage. You should profit a bit human players for staying with AI. I think 4 gold / sec isn't much (it's ONLY additional 2400 gold every 10 MINUTES of play), but it will help a bit.

Another thing is, when 2 people from both sides (light and dark) leave the game, both side AIs should just dissapear. Where is the sense to play 2 + AI vs 2 + AI ? I'm sure all would prefer change from 3 vs 3 to 2 vs 2 without AIs at all !!

 

 

About citadel currency upgrades:

Citadel 2nd and 3rd currency upgrade should be changed asap. Right now, 2nd and 3rd upgrade gives 2 gold / sec each. With it's cost (3000 and 4200 gold) you would get back this "investment" after 25 and almost 40 MINUTES of playing !! Normal game last around 30-40 minutes, and to get warrank 5 and 7, You need to spend like 10-15 min in game. So it's obviously, completely unprofitable citadel extension. If you buy better gear, instead of those upgrades, just 1 single kill (because you have better gear it would be MUCH easier) will make better for you than those upgrades !! So they really should be changed. I think, you should decrease those upgrades cost to 2000 for lvl 2 and 2200 for lvl 3, and increase gold per second to 4 for each upgrade (now just 1st gives 4 gold / sec).

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June 24, 2009 7:35:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Imo, some simple code changes in AI behavior should suffice:

-don't attack more than one enemy dg. If more than 2 dgs are in his close vicinity => retreat

-if his health is sub 50% => heal or retreat. If it's sub 30% => retreat.

-don't attack towers in most cases. Avoid attacking them in general...

-fix the "standing still and do nothing for 2-3 seconds" bug.

-his priority would be killing creeps and taking flags while avoiding confrontations with human players and towers. That's all he needs to do: survive. Of course this won't work in single player game or compstomp games, so there must be some difference in code between games with humans in his team and humans vs ai games.

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June 24, 2009 8:32:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Gr8 news ! Tnx Frogboy for keeping us up to date.

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June 24, 2009 10:21:47 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Orochi_Avlis,
Is there a chance we can get a sneak peak at the change log?

Do they EVER release a change log?  I have yet to find one

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June 24, 2009 10:24:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yes, there is always a change log. check the journals.

admitadly the logs havn't been as complete as i'm used to for the connection patches but i'm expecting today's one to list all the changes as this is a 1.1 release.

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June 24, 2009 10:43:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Great stuff Frogboy!

 

I like the idea of AI demigods that replace dropped players not providing gold/XP.

Any opinions on that?

 

They can maybe give 1/4 exp and gold.  I don't know if 0 is completely fair.  Part of the problem is they need to be a bit more careful about getting killed.  I have seen some of the AI gods be totally reckless and thereby feed the enemy.

 

Adding to your options list:

 

* If you are going to have mods choosable like game options, look into allowing auto-distribution of the mod via the game client to people who join the game.  The biggest barrier to people playing with Mods is making sure everyone is using the same version of the Mod, or getting the mod out to people who don't normally install such things.  Auto-Distribution is critical if you want to make a Mod friendly gaming community.

* It would be nice to see player skill level via the matchmaking client.  The biggest frustration I find is that there are a lot of pre-made teams of very skilled players constantly fighting people who are still learning the game.  By seeing an indicator for skill level / wins / rank, etc. people can make informed choices and try and find games that should be more fun for both teams.

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June 24, 2009 10:58:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Of coursesales sales dictate the amount of support a game will get, and I think it is remarkable that Frogboy is openly stating that it is indeed so.

From a salesman point of view it is very, very dangerous what Frogboy is saying. Something along the lines of 'we assure you we are doing everything in our power' would be more wise. The people from Creative Assembly are masters at this. They support Empire: Total War is going way further than the support for Demigod btw, so the support for this game is hardly unprecedented. However, they give the impression that they are sharks and they will not shy away from leaving the customers hanging and they give no straight answers ever.

However, I think Frogboy just convinced me that he is indeed a no nonsense guy who thinks of integrity as a highly valued thing. I can have nothing but admiration for this. This is indeed leading me to believe that he and the people he has to steal from different projects are indeed working hard and doing everything that can reasonably be done in order to make this game the great game that it could be.

I think I will stop at the game shop on my way home to pick up a copy of Demigod. I am looking forward to it.

 

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