Increase Game Depth: Citadel Minion Expansion (with pics)

By on June 20, 2009 4:11:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

TheScottish...

Join Date 04/2009
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now there was a similar idea like this a while ago... however since this forum section is SO F'ING UNORGANIZED... i was unable to find it and give proper credit to those who needed it.  i did however find a few other posts that are similar or have a point... so here are my influnces:

 

New Ideas for Minions

Ideas about improving minions

 

 

Introduction

The basic idea is to expand the current 6 types of grunts into something with a little more strategy and depth.  currently 90% of the games i play turn into a race for giants followed quickly by a stale mate, and its getting kind of borning.  so this is what i came up with.

Current Stats

currently there are 6 types of units: Minotaurs, Archers, Priests, Angles, Catapultasaurus, and Giants.  and there are 5,2,3,2,2,2 of each representatively bring the total number of units up to 16 per wave.  waves come every 35-40 secs (?). and currently i've only played on game where my computer crashed from too many units overloading my RAM (it was an impressive game until it crashed).

New Unit Tab

 

as you can see i've added a new tab to the Citadel Upgrade window, one for upgrades and one for units.  like any other tab... diffrent upgrades and info can be found on each window.

 

Upgrade Tab

 

in the new Upgrade Tab there will be a few changes:

  • No Unit Upgrades (marked by X's)
  • Armour and Weapon upgrades are global effecting Demigod and units (Might take some balancing)(circled)

 

Unit Tab

 

this is where the depth come in.  instead of only having 5 upgrades i've expanded it into 20 upgrades (with 12 diffrent units)  the basic skill tree is this:

  • A)  Minotaurs I -> II -> III -> [G)  Minotaur King]
  • B  )  Archers I -> II -> III -> H)  [Seige Archers]
  • C)  Priests I -> II -> [I)  Sorcerer]
  • D)  Angles I -> II -> [J)  Gargoyles]
  • E)  Kamikazes I -> II -> [K)  Catapultasaurus]
  • F)  Trolls I -> II -> [L)  Giants]

 

New Units

so who and what are these new units?  basicly this:

Minotaur King
(same as the idols)

Seige Archers
(same as the idols)

Sorcerrer

similar looking to the Priests however they throw fire balls which do more damage.  also instead of healing units around them they have a passive aura which buffs armour and damage

Gargoyles
flying units like the Angles however they drop splash damamge bombs onto units below.

Kamikazes 

small fat units who ignore units and run straight for any structure and blow up.  if they get killed they do splash damage to every unit around them (but reduced compared to their actual attack)

  • Trolls 
    similar to giants but smaller.  attack slow with low damage however high armour and HP make trolls natural tanks.

i'm not sure if it would be better for the high level upgrades to replace the previous ones (so Minotaurs turn into Minotaur Kings) or to have them simply add to the wave (so 3 priests and 1 Sorcerer)  i'd like to hear some feedback on that.

 

since there was some debate about the units i added the support info here:

  • Minotaur/Minotaur King
    • Cannon-Fodder/Anti-Grunt     ...    so basicly early game they don't do anything by fodder however after upgrades they do serious damge and can quickly overwelm non babysat enemy grunts
  • Archers
    • Support DPS      ...    assist other grunts in taking out other grunts/DG's
  • Priest/Sorcerrer
    • Support/DPS      ...    supports DG's and do lots of damamge
  • Angles
    • Chase/Harasment       ...    basicly stop you from using attack interupt items and sometime kill you as you go back for crystal.
  • Gargoyle
    • AoE Splash          ...     does damamge to lots of units close together
  • Kamikazes/Catapultasaurus/Seige Archers
    • Seige/High Damage        ...      good for taking out towers and building... 
  • Troll/Giants
    • Tank/High Damage         ...      trolls specificly can take a lot of damage, and when upgraded to giants can deal lots too.

on top of that here is the table for who is good against who:


Selling Unit Upgrades

This idea was actualy suggested by wraid so full credit goes to him/her:

I would love to see this implemented. It would add more strategy. Also, I think that minion upgrades should also be able to "sell" (for less than the original price, of course) so that you can dinamically change your creep wave. If they could not be selled, then a team that has invested in one combination will get their asses handed to them by the opposing team who got the counter parts to the creep wave. This way the ballance of power will constantly shift and victory won't be certain untill the last 5 - 10 minutes I think...


Other Unit Upgrades


there were a few other upgrades that i thought might help out unit depth...

  • Increased Spawn Rate
    • so units come more quickly
  • Increased Unit per Wave
    • more units come each wave
  • One time Unit increase
    • re-buyable upgrade that increases units for one wave only

however i wanted to hear feedback before think about these more.


Conclusion

so by increasing the units and variaty of their upgrades as well as allow custom talored armies to the needs of the game players would be able to think much more deeply about unit upgrading... as well as when to get specific units or specific upgrades.  this could also allow for another end game favor acheivement (Citadel Unit Upgrades).  so please post you feedback... always wanting to hear and adapt to the wrongs and rights of my ideas.

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June 20, 2009 4:29:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i think this would make generals too dynamic

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June 20, 2009 4:40:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

this isn't for idols... this is for citadel upgrades... meaning every Demigod could get these upgrades. 

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June 20, 2009 4:40:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I like a lot of these ideas, although I have a few questions:

How far should the increase spawn rate go? Currently the spawn rate is 30 seconds a wave. I think each spawn upgrade should take off 5 seconds and all the upgrades at once should make the spawn rate go no lower than 15-20 seconds a wave.

For the one time unit increase should it be something simple like increased health,damage, and numbers? Or something more complicated, like spawning a special creep that causes a lot of damage?

I think it would be better if the upgraded creeps replaced the lower ranked ones. Otherwise you'd have too many creeps on the screen at once and seeing certain DG would be difficult(*cough*Regulus*cough*). The same thing could occur with the "increase unit per wave upgrade."

Finally, I'm on the fence about whether the creep armor and weapon upgrades should effect DG. The effects should be small so people don't opt for getting Citadel upgrades to increase their stats instead of items.

 

 

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June 20, 2009 8:27:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's very important for there not to be a spawn rate upgrade. Spawns are in sync. They're supposed to be.

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June 20, 2009 10:00:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think those are some great ideas TheScottishAlien. As Regicide said though, the spawns do need to be in sync.

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June 20, 2009 10:06:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ok, so spawn time seem out of the bag.... but what about a one time wave... so an upgrade that sends one wave of grunts upon purchase.  this way the normal spawn times still apply and syncing isn't messed up.  however you can still cause a good push for a tower or citadel is you time an extra wave propably.  and thought?

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June 20, 2009 10:12:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

wow this is an excellent idea! It would make gameplay far more interesting, I really hope this idea comes into the game, or at least some of it.

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June 20, 2009 10:16:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think it would need some testing but it sounds like it would work. It might need a recharge or something similar so it couldn't be saved up and spammed near the end of the game.

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June 20, 2009 10:49:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,
Sorcerrer

similar looking to the Priests however they throw fire balls which do more damage.  also instead of healing units around them they have a passive aura which buffs armour and damage

I think removing the healing power of the Priests is a bad idea - perhaps the passive Aura could increase Health per second for all units around them?

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June 21, 2009 12:40:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think removing the healing power of the Priests is a bad idea - perhaps the passive Aura could increase Health per second for all units around them?

 

agreed, to solve this (since having 3 sorcerers all with the same aura is pointless) it would probably make more sense to simply replace one of the 3 priests with the sorcerer... this way you still get the heals, but with a nice aura as well.  also enemies can pick off the sorcerer is the aura is bugging them

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June 21, 2009 2:07:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

would love to have this kinda of depth to upgrade my army with instead of just ploping money down on my self and fortifcations. hope they put some of these ideas in would add something to the creeps that they seem to be missing.

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June 21, 2009 2:58:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't really think that the solution needs to be so complicated, though perhaps you don't view it as a solution so much as an additional feature.  Personally I don't think new units are necessary, though I'm not opposed to them per se.  Your post is quite long so please pardon my picking and choosing a few points that are easiest to give feedback on:

First off my problem with a lot of your unit suggestions is that ultimately it just increases the total number of units present.  I find that inherently unfair to DGs like Erebus and Sedna, I think it would limit Regulus's and UB's build options, and it would be extremely beneficial to guys like QoT and TB.

Second some unit ideas are a bit redundant, siege archers and catapultasauri, for example.  

Third, some of the ideas could easily be tacked onto existing units without increasing the total number of units on the field.  Adding your sorceror aura to priests would have nearly the same effect as adding the sorcerors, especially if it had an amplified effect on the priests' damage.  The bombs for gargoyles could just be given to angels, because currently angels are an extremely low profile unit which seems best suited for interrupting HoL.  Perhaps some kind of AoE attack would make them seem more... angelic.

Fourth, the name of the game is still DG management and control, and this would shift the game's focus.  For example some items would see dramatically decreased usage with the presence of more meaningful unit upgrades.  Most of the more expensive items have diminishing returns on price/value, and their usage is linked to the usefulness of citadel upgrades.  Personally I would react negatively if I were riddled with doubt every time I got an item any fancier than Nimoth's.

Fifth, not all the units seem to serve a specific purpose.  Take trolls, what's the real goal there?  Personally I'd like to see more upgrades, even if they were temporary upgrades (btw I think temp upgrades could be really neat) which countered certain playstyles.  So say you're fighting a fire TB who's mowing down wave after wave, an upgrade which could reduce AoE damage taken by reinforcements by 50% for a while would be neat.  Say you have an UB who's inescapable, perhaps temporarily coating your troops' weapons with a crippling poison or adding a frost aura would be an interim solution?  I just feel that some of these unit ideas wouldn't really enable players to counter specific tactics, which to me would be the only incentive to increase unit spawn control.

Sixth, on your idea of increasing spawn waves, why not just have it increase both yours and your enemies' spawn rates so they remain synched?  Say you have way more unit upgrades than them, then logically both sides' waves popping out faster would benefit you, and it would also add some risk to the game, as you wouldn't know what upgrades they were sitting on.  You could even allow players to purchase negative spawn speed upgrades.  

I love the idea of buying an instant wave of units for only one side, though its price would probably need to scale with your war score and have a minute or two cooldown.

 

Lastly this post doesn't explicitly address the biggest problem with unit upgrades; upgrading units gives the opposing team far too much XP and gold.  That's gotta change before any new units are added to the field.

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June 21, 2009 8:22:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"Armour and Weapon upgrades are global effecting Demigod and units"

not demigods, but I love the idea of demigods getting auras from high level creatures, it will change the flow of the game and make upgrading units more important.

Over all i am very impressed with ur ideas

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June 21, 2009 12:44:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

First off my problem with a lot of your unit suggestions is that ultimately it just increases the total number of units present

Third, some of the ideas could easily be tacked onto existing units without increasing the total number of units on the field.

Fourth, the name of the game is still DG management and control, and this would shift the game's focus

 

so all of these i can answer with one point.  the idea i had was not to increase the number of units that spawn... but to increase the variety of those spawning.  at the momment with full upgrades there are 16 grunts running out of that portal.  this means even if you bought all of the unit upgrades there would still be around 16 units.  my ultimate goal was to allow customization within the army so an army of full upgrades Minotaur Kings and Priests would be going toe to to with an army of normal minotauyrs and giants.  see where i'm coming from?  this way DG's lacking in AoE don't have to worry too much and can pick off the heavy hitters and healers still.

 

Second some unit ideas are a bit redundant, siege archers and catapultasauri, for example.

Fifth, not all the units seem to serve a specific purpose.

 

agreed some of the units need a bit of tweaking so any suggestions are apreciated... however here is my notepad doodles on what the functions of them were so far:

  • Minotaur/Minotaur King
    • Cannon-Fodder/Anti-Grunt     ...    so basicly early game they don't do anything by fodder however after upgrades they do serious damge and can quickly overwelm non babysat enemy grunts
  • Archers
    • Support DPS      ...    assist other grunts in taking out other grunts/DG's
  • Priest/Sorcerrer
    • Support/DPS      ...    supports DG's and do lots of damamge
  • Angles
    • Chase/Harasment       ...    basicly stop you from using attack interupt items and sometime kill you as you go back for crystal.
  • Gargoyle
    • AoE Splash          ...     does damamge to lots of units close together
  • Kamikazes/Catapultasaurus/Seige Archers
    • Seige/High Damage        ...      good for taking out towers and building... 
  • Troll/Giants
    • Tank/High Damage         ...      trolls specificly can take a lot of damage, and when upgraded to giants can deal lots too.

however i'm always looking suggestions on other units that might be needed.  t here was a really good post thta i was looking for that listed a bunch of diffrent units but again can't find it.

 

Sixth, on your idea of increasing spawn waves, why not just have it increase both yours and your enemies' spawn rates so they remain synched?

 

yes that might work... however only problem i can see if that the game might crash if there are twice as many waves coming in a game... thinking big 5V5 games where there is already 80+ units on the map.

that said thou... what do u think?

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June 21, 2009 2:08:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Great.

 

This could add a lot of depth and strategy.

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June 21, 2009 2:10:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Wouldnt it make more sense to give less of an incentive to buy unit upgrades?  If your problem is that the game becomes a race to see who can get giants first, rather than make it more complicated, make it so whoever has more minions less of an issue.  What you made here would create the same problem, just take it longer to show up, people would be rushing to get all those minion upgrades now, instead of just giants.  just my two cents.

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June 21, 2009 3:27:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If your problem is that the game becomes a race to see who can get giants first, rather than make it more complicated, make it so whoever has more minions less of an issue.

 

my problem with the race for giants wasn't that it was a race for giants specificly... it was that it has about as much strategic depth as a glass of spilt milk. rather than spending the whole gaming going: "do u have 1800 gold? 3600 gold? 4800 gold? 6000 gold?"  it's much more fun and exciting to be like: "do we want seige or minotaur kings? what are the enemy getting? how do we counter?

since upgrading all the units is almost impossible with normal gold income, each army would be slightly diffrent and DG's would have to play off its strengths and weaknesses, adding a whole new level to the game.

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June 21, 2009 3:35:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well first off, pretty good idea. But making the armor/ damage upgrade effect demigods probably wouldn't do much excpet make it a serious rush for those upgrades.

As for the units, I would nerph the seige archers range so that you dont end up with a massive amount of babysitting with tons of units being able to outdistance towers. And i would compleatly do away with the kamakazie idea, seeing as there would actually be a reason to leave them as they are.

The spawn rate idea would be cool, excpet you would have to make it multiple small upgrades (like 5, 1 seconed decreases.) As for increased units per spawn, i would make that per unit, except give it its own progress bar (you have to upgrade spawn rate of minotaurs, then archers, then priests, etc)

Other than that the rest of the ideas are great, and it would be really nice to do away with the race for giants

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June 21, 2009 3:38:37 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Creeps are atm not flawed as far as i am concerned, so maybe this whole thing could be a mod later on. I would definatly appreciate the mod and probably play it a lot too, as i love upgrading stuff.

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June 22, 2009 2:29:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Interesting possibilities.  With that many options though, perhaps cost could become an issue.  For instance, you may need to make the whole tree for that creature type a similar price all together as buying the creature up front currently is, to encourage people to actually use all these options instead of getting more bang for buck from personal items.

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June 27, 2009 1:49:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

All I know is that Minotaur king or whoever better be a good tank buster cause the race for Giants has to stop, there should be a possibility with winning with any specialty if it's full priests and minotaurs or archers and angels. Which ever way they should have strenghts and weaknesses like DG's, think of older RTS's like age of mythology, Heroes<Myths<Humans<Heroes. It was a simple circle like fire,water, and earth. It made sense was easy to follow and added strategy. Maybe elemental damage should be added to the game aswell. So that there are units tolerant of heavy bashing from AoE based characters like QoT and TB. Just my 2 cents.

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June 28, 2009 1:25:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

thats actually pretty close to what i had in mind.  after a bit of searching i found the notes i did on the idea in my notebook.  here is what i had:

 

so you can see the idea was that each one can take out 2 others in a big circle. (i think Demigods would kind of count as Giants in the circle?)  what do u think?

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June 28, 2009 1:32:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is a beautiful idea

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June 28, 2009 8:10:34 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You really put a lot of effort in these ideas to improve this game, I really like this idea! It would let you set a focus on what you want your troops to be good at.

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June 28, 2009 9:22:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i think this circle idea is great and i also think more minions couls altsao be fun i don't see there any problems for regulus cause when he is in ngelform he can deal splashdamage... or is there somethink i didn't thought abouT?

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