Suicidal kills: The dos and don'ts.

By on June 19, 2009 2:46:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Milskidasith

Join Date 05/2009
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Now, a lot of people say "Never kill an enemy if you are going to die after doing it." Those people are wrong. However, you should know WHEN to do it, because you can screw it up and feed the enemy as much as, if not more than, you get.

Assuming that the enemy is weakened and fleeing into towers and you are weak enough the towers may kill you trying to leave (after the kill), here are some questions to ask:

Can I kill them for sure, even if I'm being hit by all the towers in range and the DG? If no, don't do it. Just becausee some people don't AA in towers doesn't mean that others aren't smart enough to realize if they can't run, they can do more damage by attacking you in the towers.

Are there any other enemy DGs around? If 1, it's probably a bad idea; you will get a kill, and then the other DG will kill you, so all that happened is that both teams got more cash. However, it is possible that you can give the enemy you killed gold as long as his death animation is still playing, so you could feed more than you get. If there are two enemy DGs around that aren't your target, don't do it. One, a 3v1 is a bad idea, and two, they will always get more money out of it.

Are you behind or ahead? If behind, it's probably a good idea to take risks. If ahead, play it safe; another enemy may be coming round the corner and gank you, and that could set off the enemy comeback.

Do you really need gold right now? Gold is always great, I admit. But, like the above, if you don't absolutely need gold right now, it may not be the best idea to chase an enemy because unexpected things can happen.

So basically, if you don't need the kill now for your success, or if you aren't entirely sure it is a 1v1 against the enemy DG, or if you aren't entirely sure you will kill him and get killed by the towers after his death animation finishes at the earliest (preferably not at all, of course), then don't go for a suicidal kill. But if you know you are going to die to the towers and can afford the risk, do it. A kill and a good amount of EXP for you is great, and since you and an enemy will be out of the game, it doesn't adversely affect you much.

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June 19, 2009 4:41:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I play erebus and pretty much memorize my bat swarm (or cloak of the night) + bite dmg and mana costs, mouse over their hp, and if the numbers work out you are as good as dead.

 

Having both bat swarm AND cloak of the night off of cooldown is another factor.  Being able to bat swarm in, bite, warp out is GOOD TIMES YO!!!

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June 19, 2009 8:00:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

   Your point is valid about it being acceptable sometimes. The problem is I can not count how many times  I have been paired with somone who keeps getting themselves killed but only suceding in baging the enemy half the time or less. After a few of those feeds our oponents catch on and just keep leading him into the towers, from there it's gg. Even if he finaly learns not to do it anymore they use towers tolower his health a few times and once he needs the crystal they continue buisness.  If there was only 2 lessons I could get my team mates to accept that would make many games go much more competitive it is these.

1. Do not fight the enemy EVER when they have the advantage. No mater the outcome  in the end you will loose more resourses than they do. ( this means no chasing into towers if you can't guarantee a kill and NEVER EVER if you are outnumbered)

2. If your 1 on 1 battle to the death with a DG failed and you were about the same strength or more at the start than him, DO NOT go for a re match under the same conditions. It will go worse the next time I assure you. This sounds obvious but I can not count how many times my partners are trying to fight the same oponent again after he just killed em and big surprise he wins again. See while your waiting 30 sec to respawn he is creeping exp and spending cash, he has not gotten weaker while you were gone he has goten even stronger.

If players would focuse on these two things every game would be a fairly close one, and I think we can all agree the games we enjoy the most and victorys we savor the most are the close ones.  Landslide losses are no fun at all for the loser and for me at least landslide wins are boring.

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June 19, 2009 10:01:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I would say another consideration is if you die after killing the enemy, who gets credit for the kill.  Like, afaik, "Forces of L/D killed you" doesn't really benefit the other team much. 

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June 19, 2009 10:34:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It also depends on your build.  I often play an AA Reg, so I'm very willing to exchange kills.  Gold is more valuable to my build than pretty much anybody else since its an equipment heavy build.  If I'm playing as say Oak, then I'm much less likely to exchange.

You also need to know a little bit about your opponent.  If you opponent has been using health potions, its really not a good idea try to kamikaze him because your calculations will probably be off.

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June 19, 2009 3:49:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So much of the game is really a judgment of your opponent and situation, sort of like Poker. You have to think ahead and calculate all the probabilities and risks. It's almost a meta-game in itself. The problem with noob players is that they are unable to make such critical judgments.

So, saying things like "Never, ever chase into the towers unless it's a guaranteed kill" is true, but utterly useless to someone who can't figure out what a "guaranteed kill" is.

Some of that comes from experience, and a large part from just intelligence. Those with both will be formidable opponents, the others no better than AI.

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June 19, 2009 3:50:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Never kill an enemy if you are going to die after doing it.

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June 19, 2009 3:57:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Not true.

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June 19, 2009 4:09:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Number 9,
Never kill an enemy if you are going to die after doing it.

I'm sorry, I thought getting X amount of gold and almost a level up worth of EXP is worth dying for. Considering the fact it gets me more than I would by farming creeps and since one DG on each side is out, it is a net benefit.

The entire guide was written so that people like you didn't spam "never kill if you are going to die afterwards" without giving any thought to the fact that, by getting the kill, you get a huge chunk of EXP and gold and the enemy gets nothing.

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June 19, 2009 4:29:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The problem isn't necessarily the gold/exp difference, but that far too often you only THINK you are going to get the kill.  If that guy has a 750 hit point health pot they pop, after luring you into their towers... then all you do is die, and pay for the pot (And then some). Pot is bad for you, mkay?

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June 19, 2009 4:39:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Never kill an enemy if you are going to die after doing it.

This is especially not true in a number of situations.  For example, if you are going to die to a tower, you should absolutely kill the enemy even if you are going to die.  Kill gold is worth more than the assist gold your opponent gets.

I try and aim for an 80% success rate.  If I successfully exchange 80% of the time, I'm happy.  If I die and my opponent doesnt die more than 20% of the time, then I'm unhappy with my play.

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June 19, 2009 4:48:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You are comparing the gold cost of you killing them, to them assisting against you.  You should be comparing it to them running from the lane, and you living.

You stay in the lane, you get more xp and gold from that, and with your team fielding an additional DG for that time (while the other runs back to the crystal) you are more likely to cap flags, and get beneficial 2v1 or 3v2 situations.

Always have some kind of exit strategy, or you are asking to get dominated.

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June 19, 2009 4:50:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

BTW, there is no assist gold when dead.

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June 19, 2009 5:01:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The only time I think it's worth it to kill someone when you know you'll die is if you can turn a 2v2 into a 1v0.

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June 19, 2009 5:12:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sorry, it was a worthless and noncontributing joke as I essentially just copied and pasted that line from the OP.

 

On a more constructive note: still never go for a kill if you'll die in the attempt.  Ever.  I suppose I could read the OP and see what merits it actually DOES hold, but I'm still never going to die for a kill.  Or at all for that matter.  The most important tip for this game:  never die.  After all, how else do you expect to get the "deaths" reward at the end of the game?  Not by dieing!

Seriously though, just don't die.  The kills will better present themselves throughout the course of the game, with little to no risk of your own death.  Just play smart and be patient.  Going for that kill to death action will not win you the game.  I'd even be willing to stretch this to say that an X kills and ZERO deaths is substantially more demoralizing thing for the enemies to see when they hit tab than the feeling they might get knowing that even though they were killed by you, vengeance was theirs in the end.

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June 19, 2009 5:34:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think Zechnophobe has relevant criticism here. Sure it is possible to net a benefit from trading deaths, but is that benefit better than the benefit you can receive by letting the DG go and keeping yourself on the field? If he runs back to base then you seize the lane and get at least 1 flag, and unmolested gold+xp from at least 1 wave. This is highly contextual and its often difficult to determine which is the better choice at any given instant. For example, if the enemy DG needed to shop anyways, letting him go isn't as effective as you thought it'd be since hes able to kill 2 birds with one stone. I find that close games are often decided by which team is able to make more efficient plays like that. 

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June 19, 2009 5:41:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You are comparing the gold cost of you killing them, to them assisting against you. You should be comparing it to them running from the lane, and you living.

You stay in the lane, you get more xp and gold from that, and with your team fielding an additional DG for that time (while the other runs back to the crystal) you are more likely to cap flags, and get beneficial 2v1 or 3v2 situations.

Always have some kind of exit strategy, or you are asking to get dominated.

You make money MUCH more quickly with successfully exchanged kills rather than a drive off.  Its not even close.  People who dont exchange if they get the chance are simply wasting gold.

I dont know about the XP, but if you are thinking gold, you will always have much more gold if you exchange a lot vs low kills and low deaths.  This is a very big deal if you play a money dependant build like I usually do.

 

Sorry, it was a worthless and noncontributing joke as I essentially just copied and pasted that line from the OP.

 

On a more constructive note: still never go for a kill if you'll die in the attempt.  Ever.  I suppose I could read the OP and see what merits it actually DOES hold, but I'm still never going to die for a kill.  Or at all for that matter.  The most important tip for this game:  never die.  After all, how else do you expect to get the "deaths" reward at the end of the game?  Not by dieing!

Seriously though, just don't die.  The kills will better present themselves throughout the course of the game, with little to no risk of your own death.  Just play smart and be patient.  Going for that kill to death action will not win you the game.  I'd even be willing to stretch this to say that an X kills and ZERO deaths is substantially more demoralizing thing for the enemies to see when they hit tab than the feeling they might get knowing that even though they were killed by you, vengeance was theirs in the end.

Terrible advice if you are playing a build that is very money dependent (like say an AA reg).  The simple fact is that a kill generates so much more money than creep farming that you will get gold MUCH more quickly with exchange kills, while they will only get gold slightly more quickly.  The differential is greater in a killing vs driving off, as is the absolute amount of gold earned.

If you are playing something like an AA Reg and you are playing it safe and slow, you are hurting your team.  That build needs money to be really effective, and the fastest way to get money is to kill, even if it results in your own death.

 

Let me put some numbers to this.  On cataract, you get something like 100 gold for farming a wave of creeps.  So even if you only generate 1000 gold on a kill, thats still the same as killing 10 waves of creeps.  Even accounting for the fact that you wont be making money while dead and will probably miss some waves while dead, its still pretty clear that you will make MUCH more money with an exchanged kill.

Even if they get an assist on the kill (which is unlikely since they dont get assists after death), you are still going to come out ahead because while they are dead they werent farming either.  You would have needed them to be driven off for 4+ waves to make up the gold differential that you generate with a single exchanged kill even IF they get an assist somehow.  If they dont get an assist and instead forces of light/dark get it, then you would have needed to force them off for 10 waves to make that differential up.  That isnt going to happen.

 

 

 

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June 19, 2009 6:08:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not big on classified builds (as I'm sure the OP is starting to get sick of me saying in another thread) but I've played a Regulus who eventually gets AA at a practical time and I do just fine with gear, kills and team work.  More times than not, topping the leader board.

Wait, are we talking about "Slaughter" game mode?  Yeah, sure... go for that kill.  I only play Conquest though, where the overall goal of Citadel destruction is more important than getting that kill.

 

Listen, I'll just exit this discussion.  I'm not here to change anybodies opinion (including my own) nor are any of you here to have them changed in first place.  No matter what, I'll never die for a kill and I'll do my damn best to never die, period.  As long as I'm not feeding kills, nor are any of my teammates - we'll win.  Following someone into their base for that last hit, or not.

 

 

(as an aside, I've seen more instances where people go for that "last hit kill followed by their own death" only to result in some unforeseen force that yields not only them not killing the target, but their own inevitable death anyway)

 

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June 19, 2009 7:07:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think Zechnophobe has relevant criticism here. Sure it is possible to net a benefit from trading deaths, but is that benefit better than the benefit you can receive by letting the DG go and keeping yourself on the field?

First off, it isn't relevant. Secondly, big NOOOOOOOOO.

If you are at the point where chasing into the towers would kill you, you are going to have to run or die when the enemy comes back. And if he chases you, he will have enough HP to go through the towers. That's the situation. If you have enough health to chase and live, it's an obvious kill. If not... then you are going to want to trade deaths because it's better than having 20 seconds of creeping and being pushed away and possibly chased yourself. Not only that, but even the benefits if you don't get pushed are miniscule; even at the lowest level, you get 600 gold for a demigod kill. That's about as much as a creep wave with giants in it. Unless the enemy is buying giants at level 1, you aren't getting more gold for the kills, and the EXP is the same.

If he runs back to base then you seize the lane and get at least 1 flag, and unmolested gold+xp from at least 1 wave.

Yes, and then you are cannon fodder and you get a miniscule amount of creep gold and EXP. Really good strategy.

This is highly contextual and its often difficult to determine which is the better choice at any given instant.

Contextual? Unless the enemy has giants at level 1, you are getting more gold and comparable EXP with creeping, AND you aren't a sitting duck for any other enemies. If you live at low health, a single enemy hurting you will get them a kill or push you away. So it's between death+ gold for you and death for the enemies, or no gold for you and maybe dying compared to the enemies just getting pushed.

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June 19, 2009 7:10:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If the player KILLS you after death, he will still get the gold. 
(IE towers, dots, fireball mid flight and so on)

Just something to keep in mind.

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June 19, 2009 7:12:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums



(as an aside, I've seen more instances where people go for that "last hit kill followed by their own death" only to result in some unforeseen force that yields not only them not killing the target, but their own inevitable death anyway)

So you say you are going to leave, and then post anecdotal evidence to support your position... nice. Hypocrite.

Also, Never Die is a great philosophy, but you don't seem to understand why people say it. It's because dying feeds the enemy gold, and it feeds them EXP. If you get a suicidal kill, they get neither. So it's more like getting pushed out of the lane, because the enemy doesn't get anything and you are out of the game for about 20~30 seconds. Hell, on big maps a suicidal kill is FASTER than going to the crystal to rest your weary DG.

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June 19, 2009 7:40:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Staying in a lane though is more than just gold, it is also war score and opportunity for further kills.  It is pushing a lane, taking down towers, etc. You are sacrificing all of these things by dying, just to get a little more gold and XP.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but the team that wins isn't always the one that has more levels and a bit more gold. It's the one that kills the citadel first.  While they often go hand in hand, risky strategies to get a fairly mediocre advantage are not worth it.

So let me condense this down into a few clearer points:

  1. Kill swapping works on two bits of information: You think you can kill the opponent, you think you will die trying. You are almost alwyas right about the latter, and much less likely right about the former.
  2. You will get more gold and xp than the other team, in MOST cases, but not all. If you solo kill, and two enemies get assists, it equals out.
  3. You can often drive someone off, without increasing the risk to yourself, much more readily than going for the kill swap. This is the cost of the kill swap, not just the money/xp any opponents get. It is an 'opportunity cost.
  4. Being alive allows you to push lanes, destroy towers, and put your team into positions to gank the reamining DG's.
  5. Your effect while being alive may be greater than the effect of the opponent while being alive, and dying will hurt your team by the difference between these two abstract numbers.
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June 19, 2009 8:13:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Staying in a lane though is more than just gold, it is also war score and opportunity for further kills. It is pushing a lane, taking down towers, etc. You are sacrificing all of these things by dying, just to get a little more gold and XP.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but the team that wins isn't always the one that has more levels and a bit more gold. It's the one that kills the citadel first. While they often go hand in hand, risky strategies to get a fairly mediocre advantage are not worth it.

So let me condense this down into a few clearer points:

1. Kill swapping works on two bits of information: You think you can kill the opponent, you think you will die trying. You are almost alwyas right about the latter, and much less likely right about the former.
2. You will get more gold and xp than the other team, in MOST cases, but not all. If you solo kill, and two enemies get assists, it equals out.
3. You can often drive someone off, without increasing the risk to yourself, much more readily than going for the kill swap. This is the cost of the kill swap, not just the money/xp any opponents get. It is an 'opportunity cost.
4. Being alive allows you to push lanes, destroy towers, and put your team into positions to gank the reamining DG's.
5. Your effect while being alive may be greater than the effect of the opponent while being alive, and dying will hurt your team by the difference between these two abstract numbers.

The team with the gold and XP advantage will win the vast majority of the time.  Especially if they establish that advantage early (which is probably when most kill exchanging happens in my experience).  That makes trying to get a gold/XP advantage a very smart strategy.

Over half the time your team will have the flag anyway.  You either have the flag already or it was a 2v1 (which is why they were running) and your teammate will get the flag.  And if you are giving up gold/XP advantages to get time to damage a tower a bit more, well, I have to question that decision.

In conclusion, I dont see any rational way that you would want to exchange a small amount of warscore (on average) and the possibility of doing a small amount of damage to a tower for 1k+ gold and a solid chunk of XP.  That exchange you are suggesting doesnt make any sense to me.

Point 2 is wrong if one of the assists is the guy who is now dead.  The people getting the assists would have to be 2 nondead people, which is a rare situation.  Plus it doesnt even out since I think you will come out ahead in terms of XP, while the gold is even (somebody can check me on this, not sure).

What you are missing from all your "you need to be alive to have the possibility of doing something else" is that by killing your opponent you also remove them from play for 30 seconds or so when they probably could have been back in play much more quickly by simply doing a quick crystal run and tp back.

I'm not here to change anybodies opinion (including my own) nor are any of you here to have them changed in first place.  No matter what, I'll never die for a kill and I'll do my damn best to never die, period.  As long as I'm not feeding kills, nor are any of my teammates - we'll win.  Following someone into their base for that last hit, or not.

Not to be mean, but you should be here to change your opinion.  The whole reason to read strategies is to change your mind about how to play the game.  Why are you reading a strategy board if its not your intention to change your reasoning?

We have suggested detailed ways in which kill exchanging is better.  All you have done is repeat the EXTREMELY simplified saying that "I'm going to try hard not to die" and not stated how your strategy will work better than intelligently pursuing exchanged kills.  The "dont die no matter what" is great advice for a newbie.  A newbie shouldnt be trying to kill exchange.  But you have to accept that once you get better at the game, some of that simplified advice for newbies is going to get replaced by more nuanced ideas.

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June 19, 2009 8:30:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Listen man. I would hate to sound like an asshole but I looked up your record.

19-15

12 disconnects. You've played 33 games with 12 disconnects. that's over 33% to disconnect.

That means. If i hosted a game and checked you out before the game. You would then be labeled a, "Ragequitter." We'd still play but i would have told you that you and I won't ever play again if you rage quit. That is probably what you do after one of your suicides failed. I have done what you have stated in this post. It's typically a tunnel vision mentality when it happens and i'm not really proud of them.

Just for retrospect... I have 11 disconnects. Most of which came from the early stages of the game and "fatal errors" or "unhandled exceptions"

The big difference between you and me...well I'm 76-22(stats don't lie). I dont usually do what you are preaching. I have the skills to follow you,kill you and get out without dying.

 

I guess I did sound like an asshole. Mission accomplished in my book.

 

Good luck. Have fun.

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June 19, 2009 10:36:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Listen man. I would hate to sound like an asshole but I looked up your record.

19-15

12 disconnects. You've played 33 games with 12 disconnects. that's over 33% to disconnect.

That means. If i hosted a game and checked you out before the game. You would then be labeled a, "Ragequitter." We'd still play but i would have told you that you and I won't ever play again if you rage quit. That is probably what you do after one of your suicides failed. I have done what you have stated in this post. It's typically a tunnel vision mentality when it happens and i'm not really proud of them.

Just for retrospect... I have 11 disconnects. Most of which came from the early stages of the game and "fatal errors" or "unhandled exceptions"

The big difference between you and me...well I'm 76-22(stats don't lie). I dont usually do what you are preaching. I have the skills to follow you,kill you and get out without dying.



I guess I did sound like an asshole. Mission accomplished in my book.



Good luck. Have fun.

Ok...

I dont know exactly who you are ranting about since those definitely arent my stats (I have quite a few more games than that - over 100 recorded according to the website).  But suffice it to say that you are being pretty silly here.

Trying to use game stats to prove anything is just stupid at this point in time.  Not only are there so many questions about games recording and whatnot (in short, stats DO lie in DG right now, and they lie badly), but there is also a big difference between somebody who plays randoms and somebody who plays premades.  You play premades against random teams.  Good for you.  Nothing wrong with that.  But OF COURSE you are going to have a better record than people who play PUGs.  And beating a PUG with a premade certainly doesnt prove anything about your skill.

Someday we will probably have tournaments and stats that mean something (maybe even with this next patch).  At that point you can run around and be all proud about your record.  Hopefully by then you will have found some maturity.  But, until that happens, please dont pollute the boards with garbage like this.  If you want to argue a point, fine, but at least try and make a rational argument.

Thanks.

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