Exile: The Worst Map

By on June 12, 2009 11:12:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Krazikarl

Join Date 03/2006
+24

The reason this map is terrible is that there is only one way that leads to the enemy citadel.  That path is easily cut off and right next to their health crystal.  I'll explain why this is HORRIBLE map design in story form:

The teams:

My team was Reg, Rook, Erebus, Oak

Their team was Reg (Mine/Snipe), Erebus (hard to kill assassin variation), UB (Spit), and TB (fire nuke)

My team absolutely was crushing the other team.  We had at least twice as many kills as them, had giants, were pushing into their base, had all flags capped (except the one right at the entrance to their base and we got that eventually), were up war rank 10 to war rank 3 (!!), had an average of a level advantage on them, had a few creep upgrades (armor, damage), and were reasonably well item'd (I had a Mageslayer at level 9 for example).

And we lost.  Badly.

They turtled at the chokepoint into their base.  We couldnt really push into it very well.  If we did we would hit mines and instantly be focus fired.  Even if you lived you were going to get pegged with a Snipe too as well as nailed by the Erebus on the way out (and wouldnt get him in return due to all his evasion skills).  It was nearly impossible to kill any of them because they were barely beyond their crystal (and most of them were attacking from range so they were really close to the crystal and an erebus right near a crystal is impossible to kill with his skills).  While we had slows, we didnt have many stuns.

And this point the Reg just threw mines as quickly as possible into the choke (he might have had cooldown reduction stuff).  Mana wasnt a problem because the health crystal is a short walk away.  The TB was AoEing the creeps too, while the UB and Erebus were just focus firing us if anybody wandered in.  It was impossible to approach without taking a mine, which meant you were slowed already (by that and maim), then you got grasped by the UB and you were quickly dead (either a Snipe or Erebus would finish you if you got away, and the Erebus is impossible to kill that close to their crystal).

We literally couldnt get any XP because our giants would kill their creeps before they got to us.  They racked up HUGE XP and gold by AoEing at that choke.  This means that they were gaining 4 levels to our 1 with ungodly gold.  Eventually we pulled back figuring to let them out.  No dice.  They just kept sitting at that choke happily getting XP and gold while we got no XP and gold only from the gold ticks.  There was no motivation for them to leave that choke and they werent stupid.  Eventually they got up 5 levels with godly gear and my team (understandably) rage quit because it was just so stupid.

So yeah, that choke into the enemy base area is completely stupid and can be shut down WAY WAY WAY too easily by opposing DGs if they have the right builds.  Mine Reg at that choke is just stupid if defending.

Basically I really recommend not playing this map since its just so poorly designed with that single choke right next to a health crystal design.  I can think of a few basically unbeatable strategies on that map if you wanted to be really lame and the other team was foolish enough to buy catas and giants.  Of course, I dont know how you are going to end a game on that map without buying giants if they are competent with that stupid crystal placement and the choke.

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Ke5trel
June 12, 2009 11:45:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The last time I played exile, the enemy team was winning and pushed us all the way back to our base(largely because I tried to pass our reg a mageslayer but his inventory was full so the game just deleted the mageslayer when he tried to grab it).  They bought giants, it won the game for us because we just farmed at the choke for 20 minutes until we had the artifact and level advantage.  By the end of the game, nearly everyone on my team was decked out with 2-3 artifacts in the 16-25k range.  At least two of us had the all father ring.  Exile games always last at least 45 minutes and are won by artifacts.  Do not buy giants until you are already winning by a substantial margin.  Crucible's the same way tbh :/.  I don't mind playing exile on occasion though, the map looks awesome and being able to buy the most expensive artifacts in the game really appeals to my inner noob.

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June 13, 2009 12:08:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

What creeps did they have above soldiers and archers? I think the main problem with that choke point is that the artifact shop is in the base so you can farm like all hell and be able to buff yourself up with artifacts.

 

That said, knowing the map is part of the battle. It isn't necessarily a bad map it is just a hard one.

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June 13, 2009 4:31:50 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You just didn't understand the strategy of this map. The strategy is to push and for YOU to destroy the enemy towers, not the grunts. The reason is that this is a serious chokepoint map and it's very easy to contain your grunts and farm them. We had the exact same issue. We were pwning face and suddenly they started to get 2+ levels above us while we were pounding on their base entrance with giants. We did we do? We went straight for all their flags + focus fired on their towers near their citadel.

In all chokepoint maps, you need to spread out their focus fire. Make them think about other stuff, like you pounding on their towers or their citadel. Even if you're not gonna take down their citadel, someone will stop to attack you at which point you will be giving your grunts enough breathing room for them to break into the enemy base.

Also, I recommend using freeze/stun/interrupt on the annoying AOE classes and using your grunts as meatshields in order to get them to run back to the crystal and then stunning them again after they have regened at crystal. You had rook/oak/erebus. This should have been easy to accomplish. GL

 

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June 13, 2009 4:48:20 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting maxxy,
You just didn't understand the strategy of this map. The strategy is to push and for YOU to destroy the enemy towers, not the grunts. The reason is that this is a serious chokepoint map and it's very easy to contain your grunts and farm them. We had the exact same issue. We were pwning face and suddenly they started to get 2+ levels above us while we were pounding on their base entrance with giants. We did we do? We went straight for all their flags + focus fired on their towers near their citadel.

In all chokepoint maps, you need to spread out their focus fire. Make them think about other stuff, like you pounding on their towers or their citadel. Even if you're not gonna take down their citadel, someone will stop to attack you at which point you will be giving your grunts enough breathing room for them to break into the enemy base.

Also, I recommend using freeze/stun/interrupt on the annoying AOE classes and using your grunts as meatshields in order to get them to run back to the crystal and then stunning them again after they have regened at crystal. You had rook/oak/erebus. This should have been easy to accomplish. GL

 

 

This.

 

All you had to do was go past the chokepoint, and start pounding on their towers or killing their own creeps AT their portal. They would certainly come after you, and thus not be able to hold off the giants. If you did this before they farmed giants for 20 mins and caught up in gold/levels, then victory would have been yours.

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June 13, 2009 4:58:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just tells you, DON'T JUST BUY GIANTS AND GO OMGLALALALALALAWINSGAME, because it won't. Tower farming as the Rook should also have solved some of your issues, and/or taking their portal. But the ability to farm giants endlessly = easy win.

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June 13, 2009 8:07:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ,

The reason this map is terrible is that there is only one way that leads to the enemy citadel.  That path is easily cut off and right next to their health crystal.  I'll explain why this is HORRIBLE map design in story form:

The teams:

My team was Reg, Rook, Erebus, Oak

If you are practically standing in front of their citadel then here's how to win in about 2 minutes:

Reg&Rook hold the chokepoint (should be easy with tower rooks) and Oak destroys the base.

Oak has to pick Last Stand and, if possible, high shields.

Then let Oak fire up shield, attack the citadel, die, klonk the citadel while in last stand mode.

Repeat twice and the citadel is dust.

Just make sure you can hold the other team in with oak absent.

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June 13, 2009 8:44:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

pff..why didn't you applied the same strat as them when they begun to atack ? if you were so far ahead of them in the begining, it means they were less skilled than you, and with equal items you should have been able to crush them 

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June 13, 2009 8:49:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yeah this doesn't sound like a problem with the map.  this sounds like a problem with your strategy on the map.  cool story otherwise.

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June 13, 2009 9:50:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I enjoyed your story as a good tale of how to come back.  I've never personally run into this issue, but I'll be sure to watch for it now.

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June 13, 2009 11:15:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This.

 

All you had to do was go past the chokepoint, and start pounding on their towers or killing their own creeps AT their portal. They would certainly come after you, and thus not be able to hold off the giants. If you did this before they farmed giants for 20 mins and caught up in gold/levels, then victory would have been yours.

 

Thats the first thing we tried.  It resulted in us all dying and them not dying.

The levels were low enough (all were around level 9) that we couldnt charge through a minefield without it REALLY hurting (and you certainly cant charge into a tower circle under fire from enemy DGs at level 9).  At that point somebody was instantly dead passing through the choke and being focus fired and some others were pretty close even if we pushed through at the same time.  Our first attempts to charge through the choke and take out their tower/citadel was an unmitigated disaster and was clearly NOT going to work.

The point is that if they have proper units (Mine reg is especially devastating in the mid game when mines hurt like hell) you cant charge through the choke.  We arent idiots and we tried this.

But on Exile you CANNOT do this under many circumstances.  I'm sure that if we had been less dominating and been higher level when we got to this point that things might have been easier.  But on Exile, winning by too much is punished because you cant push past that damn choke if defended properly at low levels and if you cant push through, you autolose.

A rook or whatever standing in the middle of a minefield and being focus fired by 4 DGs at level 9 isnt going to last long enough for anybody to rush very far.  And even if people did make it through, they were standing in the middle of a bunch of towers with 4 enemy DGs right next to them and no way to retreat.  Not good.

pff..why didn't you applied the same strat as them when they begun to atack ? if you were so far ahead of them in the begining, it means they were less skilled than you, and with equal items you should have been able to crush them

Because if you had actually understood why we lost you would have realized that your suggestion doesnt make any sense.

Their strategy was to sit at their chokepoint and farm our creeps, which were constantly pushing against their creeps.  They knew that we could not kill their creeps because our giants would kill them long before they got to us.

If we had sat back at our chokes we would have gotten no XP and no gold.  They were getting tons of XP and tons of gold.  Not a good suggestion.

In our desperation we tried to let them out of their base so that we could do something maybe.  They didnt move out and just sat at that choke still, just farming realizing that we could do nothing, including getting XP.  They refused to attack.  This was already said in the original post, so your suggestion doesnt make any sense.

You cant hold the choke against people who are 10 levels higher than you with all artifacts (when people started rage quitting they had gone from being a level or so down to being 5 levels up and they had artifacts - their reg had an Ash when I quit).  And they werent going to leave that choke until they had artifacts and were all level 20 (at which point they could charge through our chokes like people suggested above - a level 20 with artifacts can take out a decent chunk of your citadel per life by himself).

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June 13, 2009 12:42:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That's sort of the point of exile, is the consolidated defense that can go on. So lesson learned right? Don't feed the experience prematurely, move slowly toward a victory. The whole point of that map is those kinds of turnovers, don't condemn the map because you went in with general tactics and had the specifics blow up in your face.

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June 13, 2009 12:49:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Exile does have a tough final choke, but I've never had the problem listed in the OP.  I think you just had a bad combination of abilities for the situation, and they had a very good combination. It happens.

obviously (you've already figured this out) going to giants so early and in that situation was a mistake. But it's pretty much always the case that you need to push on and destroy the enemy citadel when you have a huge advantage in grunt types, because if you dont the enemy will splatter you. This is particularly true on Exile, since you can't capture any portals to seal their doom.

if instead you went currency/XP upgrades, it would take longer to push them back but you would have an unbeatable advantage in 10 minutes without feeding them xp/gold.

also, at warscore 3(?) their citadel should have had low HP. (~25k). A concerted rush should destroy it, so long as you can force back the enemy DGs.

Bear in mind that there is an upside to the tough Exile defenses. if you controlled the whole map you had:

+30% HP

+15 HP/s

+15 mana/s

+10% damage taken by other team

-15% cooldowns

+2 gold mines advantage

it's not quite a health crystal, but it's damn close.

you might also have been better served by different artifacts, like Bulwark or Cloak of Elvenkind.

We literally couldnt get any XP because our giants would kill their creeps before they got to us.

As long as you are nearby when the creep dies (nearby being ~LOS?) you still get the XP. You don't get the gold though.

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June 13, 2009 12:50:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Protip: Don't play Exile the same as Cataract.

 

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June 13, 2009 12:54:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

exile is a real simple map, I think it has even less strategy than prison is concerned.    You cant capture your enemies portals so you just have to use brute strength.  It also is notorious for making extremely long games because of the choke points and no portal captures.      Any twisty map with areas next to a health crystal erebus can abuse hardcore this is known already.  

   Your team obviously dropped the ball by trying to rush the win on a slow map.  

 

   For what its worth though I just won a custom game on exile in 17minutes.  Doesnt happen often though.      

    

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June 13, 2009 1:14:51 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Don't buy creeps until you can outdamage their crystal or outlast their damage(while hit and running their citadel) unless the enemy team is full of noobs. Exile is fine, you only made a mistake by thinking giants+all flags+many kills = win.

I have won on Exile few times the way you just described. Enemy had giants,all flags, more kills etc. We just AoEd their creeps next to our crystal, and after farming creeps for awhile we gave our UB all our items...he bought askandor,bulwark,godplate,mageslayer etc. and became invicible. It was gg, he was able to take on the other team 4v1.

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June 13, 2009 1:54:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Take two teams:

Team A: Armor and Damage upgraded giants + gold advantage + level advantage + all flags + 7 levels of war rank advantage

Team B: no advantage other than a health crystal right next to a choke

Any map in which Team B can have an unbeatable advantage is flawed to the point of being broken.  Thats all there really is to it.

So lesson learned right? Don't feed the experience prematurely, move slowly toward a victory. The whole point of that map is those kinds of turnovers, don't condemn the map because you went in with general tactics and had the specifics blow up in your face.

Instead of trying to win we would have had to sit outside their choke for ~10 minutes just farming levels slowly.  Maps which require this are poorly designed IMO.  Your goal should be to kill the citadel in Conquest, not sit around til you are at least a certain minimum level to overcome a choke and pray to god that nobody on your team is foolish enough to buy giants (if this happens you cant farm levels and you lose).  If buying giants results in an autoloss, something isnt right.

also, at warscore 3(?) their citadel should have had low HP. (~25k). A concerted rush should destroy it, so long as you can force back the enemy DGs.

You cant if they have the right DGs at that level.  It takes them a second to get to their health crystal and they can completely jam the choke with mines.  If you cant force back the DGs and you bought giants, you lose.

it's not quite a health crystal, but it's damn close.

No its not.  The health crystal provides several hundred health per second (because one of its ticks is much less than a second).  Its easy to overcome 15 hp/sec healing, impossible to overcome hundreds of hp/sec at level 9.

As long as you are nearby when the creep dies (nearby being ~LOS?) you still get the XP. You don't get the gold though.

I was trying to duck in and get XP but couldnt consistently do it without dying.  Sometimes I'd get a bit, but like I said they were getting 4 levels to my 1.

Don't buy creeps until you can outdamage their crystal or outlast their damage(while hit and running their citadel) unless the enemy team is full of noobs. Exile is fine, you only made a mistake by thinking giants+all flags+many kills = win.

Like I said, a map is flawed if having every conceivable advantage other than the map itself means that you are actually at a disadvantage.

 

I can think of ways of winnng a lot on this map.  But thats not the point.  The point is that a map shouldnt have completely idiosyncratic tendencies that you must follow or you lose badly despite having a superior team.  This one map requires that you follow a COMPLETELY different strategy (it buying giants is a TERRIBLE idea much of the time, dont try and win early on, war score doesnt really matter etc) that arent particularily interesting and arent based on rewarding who has the most skill.  Its based on who knows the map idiosyncracies the best.

And trying to convince mixed teams that us buying giants = loss in many cases is a nightmare.  If one fool on your team gets giants, thats a loss and I cant say that that is a good thing.

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June 13, 2009 3:02:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No, you fail. The point is that what you would normally consider an advantage is no longer an advantage. It's diverse gameplay, which is +.

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June 13, 2009 4:20:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting DeadMG,
No, you fail. The point is that what you would normally consider an advantage is no longer an advantage. It's diverse gameplay, which is +.

yep, you failed.

First: If your Oak would just have fought until he got last stand, then it wouldn't be a problem at all.

Second: You learned how not to play Exile, did you? So don't blame your loss on that map. It was your strategy that failed. By the way, Crucible is even worse in that regard.

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June 14, 2009 7:23:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with this map. We had an almost identical situation as the OP though WE were the team pressed back to the Citadel. We just camped and farmed gold and XP then while bristling with artifacts ran out and smashed their Citadel even under their defensive tower fire, taking it out while they had ours down to 5k/58k.


The point was it took 1 hour and 11 minutes to conclude. We werent giving up and neither were they.

 

IMO the poor design is it's way too big for just a 4v4 - it needs to be more condensed. If i was changing it, I would remove the two side crystal areas and add just one of them but centralised in the middle of the map. This basically forms a really powerful point to fight over and push forward/back. I would also move the artifact store into this vicinity. I think the worst part of the citadel bottleneck is the fact you can farm money then easily buy, you have no incentive to go into the map.

 

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June 14, 2009 8:49:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sounds like you guys have lots of weak link in your team, and one or two people was doing more than 80% of the work to push them that far.

I mean... general afraid of mines? Never heard of it. Anyway, I don't know the whole story, I am just poking at the given description.

I do think exile is a horrible map though, it really is quite boring. I think 1 trick pony shine here because there aren't so many strategic option to worry about.

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June 14, 2009 8:58:06 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Exile is the crappiest map of the game because of the two healing spots outside of bases. The whole game revolves around them and cap locking is all you see happening. Really annyoing games.

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June 14, 2009 9:50:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You're doing it wrong.

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June 15, 2009 12:16:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Huh, I always thought Exile was the worst map, because the map was asymetric.  The health crystal flag that is easier for Darkness to capture gives a sexy +15 mps, while the silly Lightness flag gives only +15 hps. Since mana is better than health regen, forces of darkness do much better.

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June 16, 2009 1:03:31 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i think exile is a good map.

dont forces of darkness have more energy heavy characters? all of them r pretty much casters apart from UB.
forces of light have melee oriented characters and to an extend are not as energy dependant.

thats my take on it anyway

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June 16, 2009 2:38:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

gkrit that would render the map totally unsuitable for custom games, I don't think it really justifies any asymmetry.

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