Demigod: How games are made

By Frogboy on June 8, 2009 5:59:32 PM from

Well I said I was going to start going lighter on these journals since each one seems to give the poorly informed an opportunity to flame me or Stardock for whatever woes they have without realizing what’s really going on.

It just goes against my grain to not keep people up to date with what’s happening. The only thing I will say is this: I’m just the messenger. My job is a lot like herding cats.

So that everyone is on the same page of who is doing what:

Stardock

Stardock, who I work for, is the North American retail publisher of Demigod as well as the digital distributor of it via Impulse. Our job is to take the game, put it in a box (or online) for people to purchase at the store. We also are responsible for the marketing and technical support for the game.

However, in the case of Demigod, we also agreed to provide a website to take posted data from the game and display it (rankings, favor points, etc.).

In addition, Stardock developed Impulse which, amongst other things, includes impulsereactor.dll which has what we call a Common Virtual Platform (CVP). CVP is designed as an interface to a series of web services. An application calls a CVP function to send XML to servers as well as receive XML from servers that the game can then display in-game.

Here are some examples:

A game might request a team game. The game developer would call something like CVP.RequestMatch() which would then look at players in the queue and send back an XML with the players and their IP addresses for the game to connect to.

A game may want to record how many kills or how much damage they did. It can use CVP to post this data to our servers.

Now, in the case of Demigod, some special code was added to handle connecting players together because Demigod does not have this. GPG used GPGNet in Supreme Commander but it was not available for Demigod.

Raknet

To take the place of GPGNet, we looked at several options including GameSpy Arcade, Games for Windows Live, and Raknet. Since Demigod’s original ship date was February, we couldn’t use Games for Windows Live as it was too far along. The team ultimately decided to go with Raknet because it was used successfully with The Political Machine. But The Political Machine is a client/server game. Demigod is a peer-to-peer game just like Supreme Commander, Warcraft 3, Company of Heroes, and the Dawn of War series.

So we worked with the developer of Raknet to use that library for Demigod. I won’t go into the details here other than to say that obviously everything didn’t go as planned on that. The basic issue was scalability.

For you web developers, the way I would describe it is imagine setting up a really elegant looking new website that runs great during your testing phase. Then you release it and when thousands of people are on it at once, it crashes and burns. That’s basically what happened with Demigod.

I still highly recommend Raknet. If someone makes a website using Ruby on Rails, for instance, they should know what the pluses and minuses of it. Same here. Ultimately, Stardock and Gas Powerered Games took the lead on this part of the game and so it was our responsibility.

With that, bear in mind, our anticipated technical involvement with Demigod was essentially that we would provide the website, a database, and finding players to connect to each other. We treated the connectivity the same as you would any other “engine” you license (i.e. Unreal engine, Fmod, Bink, etc.).

Snowball

In Russia, the publisher of Demigod is Snowball. If you bought the game in Russia at the store, Snowball is the equivalent of Stardock there.

Atari

Everywhere else it’s Atari. Whether you bought it at a store in Australia or in the UK or on the continent of Europe, Atari is in charge there.

Gas Powered Games

And of course, the game itself is Chris Taylor’s Gas Powered Games which designed and developed the game. They make the demigods, the maps, the items, etc. Demigod is their game (i.e. they own it). They are the Stephen King to Stardock’s Del Ray books.

I think most people would agree Demigod is an awesome game. Gas Powered Games is one of the top independent game developers in the industry. You’re talking about total pros here. If it sounds like I’m a fan, it’s because I am.

My point is that when people have some problem whether it be single player, multiplayer, whatever I will do my best to direct the feedback to the right group. My default position is that everything is my fault and therefore Stardock’s fault. But that doesn’t mean we literally coded it. I’m just saying that the buck has to stop somewhere.

However, our ability to exact change is limited by how much of our own resources we can put in to help GPG or Raknet. Customers of our partners Atari and Snowball benefit from these efforts but I’ll tell ya, I get pretty annoyed when some guy who bought the game in Europe at the store (therefore an Atari customer) is flaming Stardock for whatever problem. It’s like flaming the fireman for not putting out the fire fast enough.

The Pantheon

The area of pain we’re dealing with this week is the Pantheon.

Custom game connectivity works very well now and with the updates for this week, they’ll likely reach the point of diminishing returns (i.e. if you still have problems in custom games after this week’s updates, it’s on your end).

But Pantheon sucks. So does skirmish. Istari, one of the Stardock developers pulled from Elemental to help on Demigod along with others here have been going through pantheon nonsense all last week and today.

As some of you know (but unfortunately not most people) when things hit the fan with Demigod’s online experience, we brought in developers from Impulse and Elemental to work with GPG and Raknet to get things resolved more quickly. It was a tough call because you don’t necessarily want to have too many chefs in the kitchen but on the other hand, fixing things quickly and well is very expensive and it was either putting the burden on GPG or Raknet and at the end of the day, if I’m making the journals and our name is on the box I feel more comfortable if the people working on it are people responsible to me. It’s a tough situation all around and everyone is working very hard under difficult circumstances.

Anyway, here’s a typical Pantheon experience:

User hits “Fight”
They wait awhile while the system tries to match them with people of similar skill.
They see 4 people on the connection dialog.
One of them disappears.
They end up in a 2 v 1 game.

Here’s another typical Pantheon experience:

User hits “Fight”
They wait awhile..
They see 4 people
One of them can’t connect back.

Sometimes you get both.

Here’s a report between Jeff and Istari on the subject:

This log finished off with the following:

PlayerName: Istari PlayerID: 11122 SystemAddress: xxx.204.71.133:64840, Connected to: 46966,52623 PendingConnections:

PlayerName: KutsuShita PlayerID: 46966 SystemAddress: xxx.209.39.38:6112, Connected to: 52623,11122 PendingConnections:

PlayerName: F3kay PlayerID: 52623 SystemAddress: xxx.147.232.59:6112, Connected to: 11122 PendingConnections: 46966

KutsuShita and F3kay DID connect. But part of the 2nd-round handshake failed. If you were to lookat F3kay's playerlog, my money is on that you'd see PLAYER_ID_PONG packets in the packet log, but no PLAYER_ID_PONG in the impulsereactor log. = The packets are coming in, but not getting processed.

This is the same problem I've been trying to track down with a couple users by working one-on-one. The problem appears to have to do with ordered packets not all arriving, causing all future messages to not process. There is a SIGNIFICANT chance that this is also the cause of the disconnects-from-faciliator, but I have no proof of that at this point in time.

Additional information about this problem includes that it most open happens to specific players, that other people show connected in their list (e.g. it says they're connected to everyone) but that they sit as "pending" in other people's list.

**My current theory is that their unreliable connection causes permanent packet-loss on some multi-part ordered messages, and once that happens all further messages fail to get processed as RakNet waits for the prior message.

What you see here is one of the problems with debugging a third-party library. We could either send this error to the developer or we can dig into the library’s source code ourselves and try to fix it. We’ve been increasingly opting for the latter (mainly because for us, time is of the essence and we have a lot of experienced developers in this area who can do this pretty well).

But this gives you an idea of the kinds of things we’re dealing with. What we find are not “bugs” but scaling issues. So I want to emphasize that we’re not going through other people’s code and saying “Oh, so and so has terrible code!” What we find are simply cases where Dev A didn’t expect Dev B to do a particular thing.

So this is probably more information than you wanted to know but it gives you an idea of the kinds of things we’re trying to help with here.

+912 Karma | 84 Replies

I know that maybe i don't have the full picture, but as far as i know, publishers are responsible for the final quality of the game and it's their decision to postpone or not the release. And many, many times, the publisher is the one that rushes a game to the market, with bugs and unfinished stuff and then the devs are complaining that they didn't have enough time to properly finish it. I know that Frogboy said that from their point of view, the game worked and was finished when was released. But this is not an excuse for not testing enough the game (doing a larger open beta) and not using proven netcode like Gamespy or GFWL, instead risking with some obscure, unproven and untested netcode like Raknet. If they could have made the decision to postpone the release by a couple of months, just think about all the good stuff: stable netcode with Gamespy or GFWL, additional demigods (the ones that weren't ready for the release, Oculus for ex, that are still in the game files), useful friends list with matchmaking, replay option (that wasn't finished) and maybe an open beta to crush some bugs (the infamous ability bug that has recently been fixed). And now, instead of flaming our frustrations on SD and GPG, we could have actually played the game and everyone would be happy. So imo, the one who made the decision not to postpone the game and release it in this state is the one who is responsible for all this mess.

I only agree that customers should stop flaming because it is futile. Like the paragraph above. Nothing good can come out of it. The damage was done, everyone knows it. But on the other hand, i can't agree with the legions of fanboys who accept a broken game and say thank you. I accept it's semi-broken and i hope it will be fixed someday (slim chance, but that's another story), but i can't say thank you yet. I could say thank you Frogboy, for being so open, but that's about it. That doesn't fix the game, especially when you consider that it's not their game, it's GPG's game. When the game will be fixed, when some of the community feedback will be taken into account and we'll see some gameplay tweaks and content based on feedback and mp truly fixed (not only connections problems, but also group join, rematch, etc), then i will say Thank you.

DeadGhost, people don't like you because you are obtuse about this.

This isn't super complex.

No one says you shouldn't complain about a problem. What they do say is you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The people who made the game, GPG, aren't on the forums. Why do you think that is? Probably because they don't want to have to deal with the bullshit.

Yet, Stardock, which as this post makes clear, is only one of many players but chooses to actually do something. They're the good guys here and yet they're getting stuck.

What about Atari? They published the game too.

You want satisfaction but Stardock doesn't have to give it to you. It's not really their job. The best they can do is give someone a refund, which they do. Does Atari give refunds? Anyone know.

I was in the beta. I, and others in the beta thought the game was ready for release. It was a public beta. People were free to post their concerns prior to release. The posts are still here. You can go back and read them and it was pretty universal that other than balance, which was fixed on day 0, people thought the game was ready.

Well, isn't that the problem?

We're 'complaining LONG after Stardock hears about he problems'.

The most important part of the game is not working since I bought it (which was.. not sure how long ago exactly but it's more than 5 weeks.. I bought it pretty much first day it came out).

So let's say that's 5 weeks (I think it's more but for ease of calculation).

And they've been doing these mega-hour working weeks... let's say.. 50-60 hours a week?

And they've got at least 4 people working on it (Impulse, GPG, Elemental, Raknet).

You're telling me that in over in 1000 man hours of trying to fix the most fundamental problem, we still have no ETA on the fix?

You don't think that's even remotely strange/worrying?

But you know, I don't want to be a whiner so:

My problem is pantheon.

I've forwarded all the necessarily ports.

I've done the proxy switch.

Please could you give me an ETA on the fix that will make Pantheon 70% reliable (I don't think anything will be ever 100% when it comes to connectivity).

(i've searched the forums but I don't believe anyone has offered any sort of ETA)

What do you think Stardock who is the PUBLISHER of the game do? They put their own guys on this to help solve it. It's not their code. It's really not their problem. They could do what every other publisher does and just send it over to the developers to fix in their own sweet time. Would that make you happy?

No, not at all.

And your point being?

Actually, I take it all back.

You know what would be the SIMPLEST fix would be for now?

Make all pantheon matches 1v1 (until bigger games can be fixed I mean).

I'd be happy with that!

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 24

You guys see that GPG stated they won't be using Impulse with their future game. I read it in one of the E3 write ups about Supreme Commander II. That makes me sad... I feel pretty comfortable that you will eventually get this fixed and once you do it will be rock solid.

Chris has emailed me and said that the comment was taken out of context.

Second, I would be very surprised if SupCom 2 isn't available on Impulse.

Thank goodness! I was very dissapointed when I found out it wouldn't be on Impulse, but now everything is better!

quoting post

User hits “Fight”
They wait awhile while the system tries to match them with people of similar skill.
They see 4 people on the connection dialog. One of them disappears.
They end up in a 2 v 1 game.

I havn't played online in a while, and maybe someone else already posted something similar in this thread, but I feel that this feedback about how I try pantheon is relevant here. The procedure is like this:

I hit "Fight"
I look at the connection dialogue as soon as it is visible.
If I see only 4 people in the connection dialogue (me + 3 other guys), I hit cancel.
Repeat at 1.

So in your scenario, I'm often the one who "disappears". And not because of technical problems.

I don't do this to annoy anyone of course, but because I don't like 2vs2 games. And the reason I have often repeated that process several times is that I did not know that the algorithm only tries to find 2vs2 games anyway (At least it seems to me that there is such a limit, and that you changed it a few times. Right? The game itself does not tell me about these limits).

Just to throw in my short two cents; I work do software project management, and while I only deal with internal customers, I can at least vicariously commiserate with specifically Stardock, but vicariously GPG. While the developer and publishers have responsibilities inherent to developing and releasing a product, I don't think many people understand the complexities that are involved in such a large project. Or to put this more specifically, the class project where you wrote a program that had a client/server architecture in college is not directly applicable or comparable to what Demigod does, though it might hurt your ego to consider that. In short, these problems are extremely complex, and villifying or demeaning Stardock or GPG not only does not help anything, but is unfair and stupid. They actually have careers doing this sort of thing, whereas you... well, you cry on forums for a living (you being a reference to any number of people.)

That being said, Frogboy and Stardock, while of no immediate monetary value, one of the most significant things you've done with the release of Demigod is the good will you've built among many veteran gamers. I can speak for myself, at least, where I hate being left in the dark just as much as I hate being pandered to. Neither of which you've done. You've been forthright, honest, and humble. You've sought input and advice, have owned up to mistakes, and have refused to be cowed by the pervasive whining factions.

So, while this may not buy good will with reviewers, and the lamers will find just about any reason to cry, you have purchased the good will of a significant portion of the community. And no amount of clever marketting or advertising can acquire that; it, in itself, is probably one of the more rare and elusive commodities in all of the fickle gaming community.

So... keep up the good work. Some of us aren't morons, out here.

I'm glad to finally see some reports on Pantheon and Skirmish sucking, because they do.

I love Stardock and GPG very dearly, but their current state is just unacceptable for game having been out in the release world for a month now.

I have mentioned this in other threads, but I think if you want this community to stay healthy and vibrant, you need the "play it now" option (i.e skirmish and pantheon) to be vastly more functional then they are now!

EDIT: I would say a good goal is that you should be able to press Pantheon/Skirmish, and get into a game with good connectivity/skill ranking within two minutes.

I wish you guys luck in that venture.

By the way, there is also the third Pantheon/Skirmish issue, where the game will literally sit connecting players (or attempting to connect a player who already left) for well over 10+ minutes. An unfortunate situation.

I am one of those forum lurkers, supportive of Stardock, who regularly read the dev journals and comments for Stardock's Games, without actually making a comment of my own. In this case I think its important to be clear in my support and encouragement of Stardock's efforts in correcting the issues with Demigod.

To clarify my perspective: I pre-ordered Demigod through Impulse when it was still in early beta. I played it - casually - before release. I liked it. At this time, I still haven't downloaded the release version, let alone any of the post-release patches.
This is a deliberate choice as I want to wait for the major issues to be corrected and for player's frustrations to cool before I attempt to participate in the DG community.

In reading these journals/updates it is clear to me that:

- Stardock made some choices in development that had consequences they hadn't anticipated.
- Stardock, since becoming aware of these problem(s) has contributed all their available resources to attempt to resolve ongoing issues with connectivity and gameplay.
- Stardock is stepping well beyond the bounds of their contractual obligations to fix these problems for a number of reasons, namely: Their reputation as a Publisher, Their sense of responsibility to the 'community' around Demigod, and to focus player feedback/complaints so as to minimise finger pointing and mis-communication.
- A number of issues are yet to be resolved after 2 months of solid work on the project.

The first thing that comes to mind here is that I haven't once heard Stardock trying to avoid blame or deny mistakes. They have admitted them.
The reality is that while Stardock is a proven publisher and game developer, It is a bawling infant in the world of Multiplayer games. Frogboy has stated for years that he wanted to stay away from Multiplayer in the games which Stardock has made, and the games have been stellar without it. Demigod was and is a different matter entirely.
While Stardock must have been aware of the nature of the game they were getting into, in taking responsibility for the networking technology for a multiplayer-centric game, they were entering into an area where they had minimal experience at best.

Bad decisions were made in virtual ignorance, and the lack of experience here led Stardock to believe, after in-house testing that they had rock-solid networking code for Demigod.

So, now here we are. Two months is a long time to have frustrated players unable to play a game. Two months of development, outside of the regular development cycle is a long-time for any company, let alone a publisher to remain commited to bug-fixes and patches.

For those who support the inhumanly long hours of effort which the human-beings working at Stardock have contributed to trying to fix this game, Good on you.
Frustrated gamers point fingers at entities, companies. This faceless antagonism makes it easier for frustrated game players to flame and rant, and makes it easier for game companies to hide behind their anonymity. For being the FACE of Stardock and taking the onus of responsibility in this case Frogboy, I salute you.

However, the frustrated gamers who give in to the urge to flame and rant on these forums without any intention of providing tangible contributions to the solving of these problems, need to remember that Stardock is a collection of individuals who take pride in their work, and need to see some support and consideration if they are to continue working at such a pace to fix these issues. We are all human.

The choices are quite simple, contribute what you can of your game experiences/problems to constructively help find a solution or take Stardock up on the option of a refund.

My personal take on the situation: Those with the patience to wait, will end up seeing a rock-solid game which is incredibly fun to play and will remain so well into the future.

<< Very Long Post Over >>

I think I am not alone when I say I would love to help fix Pantheon, but I have asked in several threads if there is any relevant log information that would assist, or in what ways the playerbase could assist. I have not yet reciecved a reply.

Quoting Xan,

reply 1

And therein lies the problem that has been plaguing everything from the get-go - scalability. This is a great game, which makes the current issues even more frustrating. I love this game, but I cannot recommend it to any of my friends yet because the game requires serious patience to even get into a game. Disconnects, favor broken, net splits, CTD, long make-connection times, lag from 5v5 games. None of which go to the merits of the game which were very solid at launch. Most of these, if not all of them, have been resolved for Custom games - but the Pantheon and Skirmish games are an exercise in frustration.

When the problem for Pantheon and Skirmish games were recognized, they should have been shut down. I didn't know why they were not working so I kept trying - and the frustration mounted. It would have just been better to turn them off rather than have players bang their heads against the screen trying to get it to work. Same with favor - turn it off until it works for everyone. The candor from SD is refreshing and kept me with the game when I otherwise would have left.

I am not complaining for the sake of whining. I want the game to succeed. I have definitely gotten my money's worth out of the game and continue to suffer the frustrations to play games. Unfortunately, a botched release has big ramifications on the size of the community. Personally, I do not care about new demigods or new maps or more items until the different play modes work. I want to be able to recommend my friends to the game, but if it takes more than 10 minutes to get into a Pantheon game, they just move on or go back to the games that my whole community of friends play.

I'm sorry if I've shot the messenger (you, in this case), Frogboy. I appreciate what you do, probably all of us do, but you have to understand that many in the community are frustrated about any number of things, and we just want some answers.

I'm sorry that you take the complaints THAT personally.

I liked the way Stardock has taken responsibility for these issues so much I went and bought GalCiv II and AI Wars though Impulse. Being able to get games with a 10 minute download could cause issues with my budget!

Brad, thanks as always both to you and your team for the hard work, and to you in particular for spending the effort to keep people informed about what's going on.

I didn't realize these journals were made by stardock employees. It was an informative read. Thanks for sharing.

Also, since there is so much information here presented on Pantheon, do you guys have any opinions on people surfing Pantheons to play with their friends (i.e. quitting out of games until they end up with their friend?)

What's the point in doing that?

(ie why not play custom?)

Quoting MrBoingy,

reply 16

What's the point in doing that?

(ie why not play custom?)

The point is that people do it and it probably further adds to the difficulties of getting an actual 2v2 match going, since so many lopsided games start when a player quits out when he sees his buddy isn't in the connection info. tab.

I think not displaying the names of the players you are connecting to in Pantheon/Skirmish would go a long way towards blocking this.

No, I meant, why do people go to Pantheon and try and get a game with their buddies?

It's 10000000 times easier to set up a custom game.

Quoting MrBoingy,

reply 18

No, I meant, why do people go to Pantheon and try and get a game with their buddies?

It's 10000000 times easier to set up a custom game.

I'm not sure, but I've run into it several times pretty much every day I play Pantheon.

Hey Frogboy. I hope you do read this post

As sad is this sounds I've been thinking about how to re-spark interest in Demigod at least in my corner of the world (Not that it is doing badly of course but all teh negative posts and news brings it down some). I know that Stardock does not deal with retail distribution outside of North America but you could boost digital sales in New Zealand and possibly Australia by pushing for reviews from gameplanet.co.nz, nzgamers.co.nz and ausgamers.com.au. The first two get counted towards your metacritic score also. I would recommend pushing this AFTER the smart proxy fix comes through as the current connectivty via proxy issue for Australasians will be a turn off. I am not sure how getting reviews work so you may have spoken to these sites already but I know that gameplanet forums has around 63,000 members, that is 63000 potential customers for you. Digital download is a very good option for us with the exchange rate making the cost of the game just $64NZD and the relatively small size of the download is appealing too.

My point is I really enjoy this game and would like it and Stardock to thrive. The game has issues which is unfortunate because it would have sold a hell of a lot more but it can pump up sales through more reviews and getting some global hype surrounding the game. Don't give up on it, even through all the frustrations and rage I've had over teh connectivity issues I still believed and believe in this game. I'm doing my small bit to get demigod out there as a game to buy through forums. If we all do a bit too it could help a lot to get teh big, bustling community we want.

Well ,

first i want to apologise that i pointing with my finger on You Frogboy and your Company.

But still i feel more and more that it is my duty as costumer to get on someone nerves.I know you´re saying i´m from Europe i´m even not your costumer but in this case it was my free Weekend, want to play some Demigod and then @/&%( !!!I opened the Gamebooklet,Page 21 get this adress and grrr Here comes the Flamehammer.Sorry i have to cry on somebodys shoulder.

In fact i´m not very patient,patient about the publishers(i mean everyone) because in the past i monthly buying Games since Dune2 and in the last years i think it becomes a trend to publishing "unfinished" games.Patches coming soon....about that i felt tricked.And with Demigod it wasn´t the first time.These behavior(Not specialy you) just let more peoble downloading illegal.Yes i ´m guilty too about that.A Friend shows me a illegal Version of Demigod and i played it with him ,but God thats not like me ,i can afford these games and i still bought it because I WANT to support people who made a great job and put another great game to my Collection.Please lead me not in temptation to change that.

Quoting Xan,

reply 1

DeadGhost, people don't like you because you are obtuse about this.

Quoting Xan,

reply 1

No one says you shouldn't complain about a problem. What they do say is you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I realize this, that's why i've said, quote: "I only agree that customers should stop flaming because it is futile. Nothing good can come out of it."

Quoting Xan,

reply 1

The people who made the game, GPG, aren't on the forums. Why do you think that is? Probably because they don't want to have to deal with the bullshit.

Yet, Stardock, which as this post makes clear, is only one of many players but chooses to actually do something. They're the good guys here and yet they're getting stuck.

I know this too, that's why i applauded Frogboy' attitude, quoting myself again: "I could say thank you Frogboy, for being so open".

I just wish GPG should give us more feedback themselvs on other things not related to connections issues and bugs. Just some feedback to the gameplay ideas and balance issues (items, dgs) that the community asked for and they are ignored. We need to know more, if they are working on them or plan to, that's all. They are some very, very good threads about changes, suggestions and ideas, but no one replied there, and Frogboy didn't mentioned anything about them in his journals.

Quoting Xan,

reply 1

You say that it's the publisher who has the final say. Talk about being a GPG fan boy. Gee, I read Chris Taylor going on and on about Supreme Commander 2. Sounds like it's their game. Demigod is GPG's game too.
What about Atari? They published the game too.
You want satisfaction but Stardock doesn't have to give it to you. It's not really their job. The best they can do is give someone a refund, which they do. Does Atari give refunds? Anyone know.

Again, i advise you to read more carefuly before replying. I've said that "maybe i don't have the full picture, but as far as i know, publishers are responsible for the final quality of the game and it's their decision to postpone or not the release.", meaning that i'm not 100% sure about this, that's why at the end of my reply, i've wrote this: "the one who made the decision not to postpone the game and release it in this state, is the one who is responsible for all this mess". So either GPG or SD is responsible for not postponing the game and releasing the game in this state. I know Demigod is GPG's game, as i've said it in my post, quote: "especially when you consider that it's not their game, it's GPG's game." And, no, i'm not GPG's fanboy, very, very far from it, quite the opposite at the moment. That's why i've said i can't thank them for this game yet, in this state, i'll thank them (GPG) when they fix everything and when i'll actually see some promised content.

And btw, Atari delayed the game's release by a few days in Europe, in order to coincide with the release of the 1.01 patch.

Quoting Xan,

reply 1

I know for a fact that the ability bug was reported back in the beta and wasn't fixed. Some say that they were some signs of mp connection issues, but they were ignored.

And anyway, there is no point in arguing about this, as Frogboy himself admited he was wrong by not doing an open beta with more people from around the world. They should have been more careful with the untested and unproven netcode such as Raknet, once they chosen this, instead of GFWL or Gamespy, both which are known to be working ok in stress conditions. The problems could have been avoided, it's not like something that was just bad luck, like when you are hit by a meteorite in the head. There is nothing they can do right now, besides trying to fix it, and i agree that flaming and complaing can't do much good right now...But you need to understand there is a reason for all this frustration and stop being such fanboys. Both GPG and SD made mistakes, but they are trying to fix them now.

I'm not angry on SD right now, as i understand their position as a publisher and i salute them for being open and fixing stuff that it wasn't their job in the first place. And they admitted that it was a mistake not doing a larger open beta, that maybe could have changed their minds about using Raknet. So it's ok now, they apologized for this and they are trying to fix Raknet's code.

But on the other hand, when it comes to GPG, i don't have many good words for them. They have no excuse for releasing a game without proper mp features (group join, rematch, etc) and selling it as a mp game in the finished state. Also, they don't respond to community feedback, when it comes to gameplay suggestions/fixes/ideas. And to be frankly, they are working too slowly on bringing patches. That is my subjective impression. I mean, we only seen one small patch from them, 1.01, in what's been a month a half from when the game launched. In this rate, i doubt we will see the promised demigods by the end of this year. Not to mention about other stuff that the community suggested. And they are not known as a company that supports their games long after they were finished. They release a patch or two and then just make a sequel of that game.

Can I point out that many people hated steam in the beginning and some still do hate it with a passion. Also games for windows live is pretty bad at matchmaking in my experience (DOW2) and my experinence of battle.net and gpg.net were also pretty bad. Gamespy is also a pretty crappy server browser and matchmaker and pretty universally disliked in the gaming community. Demigod is not the first game to come out with flaky netcode/matchmaking and it is far from the worst I've seen in that respect. Battlefield 2 and BF2142 (same game really) had a bad issue with the friends sytem that makes it unplayable online for some people and maybe still does years later on. The main thing I have noticed about Demigod is regular patches and good comminication like I have never seen before, taking the game from very broken to mostly working in a few short weeks.

I can say I am glad to see him post his thoughts and some insight into the makings of a game and what is being done. While connection issues have been hit or miss with me I am more concerned with the game itself and balancing issues, and how annjoying regulas is to play against.

Hmm, about some Frogboy's post, taken from another thread:

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 3

I can assure you that GPG is working very hard on Demigod and both us and Stardock are commited to the *long term* support for the game. Even today, we were having a friendly debate on the 2 new Demigods that are being developed on what powers they should have. We literally talk hours every day.

Why don't you make this debate public? I mean, you could post some skills from the demigods and we could comment on them and they could use our feedback, instead of releasing them and then wait for our feedback. Do any of the many, many demigods concepts posted are taken into account?

And about *long term* support, i'm puzzled by a response Chris Taylor gave to Joystiq, in this interview:

Chris Taylor

What happens next for the team at Gas Powered Games?

We'll be working on Supreme Commander 2 until next year. I think that -- if you had to lay money down -- you'd see another RTS title from us. Either an expansion pack for Supreme Commander 2 or something else in this universe or ... who knows. Another RTS game. But we like RTS, there's a lot of potential in RTS. You know some ask, "Are RTS games dead? Has it peaked? Is it over for RTS?" After what we've shown you today, I hope you maybe see a glimpse that there is a new chapter in RTS's. We can start doing stuff that is just wild with these technology advances. The future is bright and RTS gaming is where you'll see us for a long time to come.

Not a single word about Demigod or future expansions. That's why i'm worried.

And i don't want to be rude or anything, but may i ask how many people at GPG currently work on Demigod? If that's not a company secret...I'm asking this because i know GPG is a relatively small company and they allready have a big project, like SupCom 2.

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Demigod: How games are made