Spit needs to be nerfed, Hammer Slam needs to be buffed

By on June 3, 2009 8:45:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

MarkyX

Join Date 06/2006
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There is no doubt that after playing both characters (I only play assassins), I can safetly say that using UB with the spit is too damn easy while playing a Melee Rook with the Hammer Slam is pointless.

First and foremost, spit always hits, Hammer barely does even with the boulder roll.  This automatically gives spit a huge advantage since it's a guranateed full damage while missing with the hammer slam results in something you might as well auto attack.  The only advantage the rook has with the Hammer slam is slightly cheaper mana cost.

What makes the spit even more scary is it actually deals more damage then the TB fireball and has the same cool down, although obviously less range (but let's be honest, late game UB has no problem chewing someone's face off at melee range).

Considering one of UB's weakenesses is supposed to be "range", it makes no sense to make his only ranged attack to be one of the strongest in the game.  It also doesn't make a bit of sense to put the hammer slam to have such horrible damage based on the long cast time and low "accuracy".  Unless Stardock wants all Rook sot use towers to become useful, this should be changed.

 

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June 3, 2009 8:49:15 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

First and foremost, spit always hits, Hammer barely does even with the boulder roll.

comparing these 2 spells is pointless

one has AoE with massive damage, the other is a DoT for a single target.

although i do agree that the casting time on Hammer Slam needs to be reduced, spit doesnt really need a change, their is Symbol of Purity for that.

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June 3, 2009 8:54:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"one has AoE with massive damage"

An AOE that misses if you decide to move your guy into the rook ...makes perfect sense.


There is many methods of fixing this, such as a bigger radius, less cool down, or quicker casting time, but I find it really stupid that it's essentially a useless skill because it barely registers most of them yet other demigods have skills that are always 100% guaranteed hit.  As for the DoT on a single target, mind you this is a damage over time that deals more damage then TB's fireball on a character that is supposed to be weak in range.  Also forcing players to deny other favor items because of ONE skill should be classified as inbalanced, since no skill in other demigods demands such a counter.

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June 3, 2009 8:57:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have played my fair share of rook. I LOVE the mechanic of hammer slam and boulder roll. They are the only abilities in this game (as far as I have encountered) that actually require skill to use. Im talking micro. Of course other abilities require skill in timing, strategic conservation of mana, etc.

EDIT: So yeah. That's a really noob thing to say. Other abilities require skill to use. I am just trying to say that hammer slam is unique in that it requires its own brand of placement.

The real problem is that hammer slam will never hit an opponent until you have boulder roll (or a VERY well-coordinated team) at level five. Even then, your slam is probably only doing 500 damage. And that is in the rare occasion that you manage to aim correctly AND your opponent just so happens to run the wrong way. That's zero damage as far as I am concerned.

If you want to buff hammer slam, either slightly increase the stun length of boulder roll or increase the damage of slam. Or both. Hell, lower the AOE of slam to compensate if you want. I mean.. it's literally his only nuke.

As far as UB goes... meh. The only thing that bothers me is that TB's fireball range is only one UB step away from a spit. I do think the range of spit is a weeee bit excessive.

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June 3, 2009 9:02:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Use one of the half-dozen or so counters for spit.

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June 3, 2009 9:06:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

but I find it really stupid that it's essentially a useless skill because it barely registers most of them yet other demigods have skills that are always 100% guaranteed hit.

i find it really stupid that people complain when a spell requires knowledge, timing and skill to use.

Also forcing players to deny other favor items because of ONE skill should be classified as inbalanced, since no skill in other demigods demands such a counter.

you can actually counter spit several ways, refer to here:

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/352143

 

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June 3, 2009 9:15:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sorry, but there needs to be a purchasable item for like 200.  It removes  spit, tracking, MAB, etc.  It needs to be affordable because chances are you will need it many times, althought 200 may well be to low. 

 

Sorry, but for me The only REAL option is the favor item.  I dont play sedina, Oak or QoT.  I occasionally play erb so mist works.  But I primarily play with TB or Reg.  That means I HAVE to get the favor item.. And if its disabled then what. 

 

Hell make HoL remove spit.  It wouldnt heal you becasue you would take 1 sec of dmg, but at least it could remove spit. There needs to be a universal non-favor counter.

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June 3, 2009 10:10:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

As I play Boulder Roll/Hamerslam Rook exclusively, it is a viable strategy, especially after level 10. You just have to practice and be willing to lose a *lot*. Also, you need to reorient your camera quite a bit to get a good angle. The problem is that the timing varies based on sim speeds. There is no exact time to hit the slam, as it will vary from game to game. Heck, even giving me 1/10th of a second difference between the time stunned and the time to cast hammer slam would help this tremendously.

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June 3, 2009 11:09:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Spit is annoying until you've encountered it enough to learn how to live with it. I do wish that the "Restorative Scroll" would cleanse the demigod as well as the minions.

Hammer slam is a nice ability, but it has such an obvious tell, and it seems so slow that people avoid it rather easily. A boosted radius or a faster cast would be cool, but it'd certainly be lethal (maybe too lethal). I'm not sure I'd trade my castle for a better hammer. Even a buff to Hammer Slam wouldn't pull me away from my tower build, I just like the feel of it so much more.

 

 

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June 4, 2009 4:14:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hammer Slam does bashit insane damage and applies a 50% snare late game.  I don't see how you could make it easier to use without gutting the damage and/or snare.  I think it's just one of those abilities that sucks all game until you hit 15 and then it gets outrageous, especially when your partners start using stuns as well.

The only change I think would be fair is if its cast time increased the way its mana cost does as the ranks get higher, so that it would synch up a bit better with your boulder early and mid game.

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June 4, 2009 5:34:22 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

To quote something i did see here earlier:

"Rock needs to be nerfed, paper is fine" - scissors.

So you did find UB to be more powerful than Rook? I dare to say that you didnt play Rook the way it is meant to be played. There is no way UB causes a rook any trouble, that is.. inside his little garden of towers. They will spit and then run away quite fast as the towers will eat them. If they decide the chase, you just hammer slam.

Hammer slam is weak? 1700 AoE damage is weak for you? Hell, it starts out with 500!!!! damage on level1. Sure it is slow, but that can also be used as an advantage, as you can easily cancel the ability if you see the enemy is running away from it.

In fact, a hammer slam is the perfect psychological weapon against most demigods early on. When they see you raise your hammer, especially if they are fighting you inside your garden, they will just run away and by the time they realize you didnt slam, they just took too much damage to continue fighting.

Also.. you have 3 independent weapons next to your fist and abilities, each of which is capable of killing enemy demigods if you are lucky.

Still, with the rook, your task is not the killing of demigods. You can just go around the map removing enemy towers and quite frankly, if you do your job well, they will need at least 2 very good, or 3 average players to remove you from your lane. If you get backup during that fight, then they are just screwed and will have to withdraw.

So my advice: learn your characters before you judge about how balanced they are.

Quoting tperge,

Hell make HoL remove spit.  It wouldnt heal you becasue you would take 1 sec of dmg, but at least it could remove spit. There needs to be a universal non-favor counter.

Sorry, but WHY exactly NEEDS there be a counter? Is there a counter for the TBs fireball? Is there a counter for the Sedna pounce? They are all just damage dealing abilities, that in addition deal INSTANT damage. Spit is just a Dot. It can kill you if you are low on health, but even then it takes time to do so, which gives you plenty of time to counter it, and countering it means lots of thing: porting home to the crystal (takes about 3 seconds), drinking a health potion (takes 0.5 seconds), etc..

Use your damn imagination and realize that theres healing beyond heart of life and abilities in this game.

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June 4, 2009 10:22:55 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well i played rook a few times (a played 100% of my game vs ai till now...( becuase of the online issues...)) and i always took hammer slam to destroy a group of creeps, and i really thought that this was imba. If you have skilled it up to level 3 or higher, u only need to walk into a group of creeps and make your hammer slam, when there are 8 creeps, all are dead. So what can you do with spit?? Spit is anti-heroe, h-slam is anti creep. Thats how i got this. It´s the same like torchbearers fireball vs heroes, and his ring of fire vs creeps. You could also complain about the ring of fire being not an effective hero killer.

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June 4, 2009 10:32:32 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Spit isn't even UB's best ability.

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June 4, 2009 10:36:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting RapierX,
Spit isn't even UB's best ability.

 

Right

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June 4, 2009 10:38:41 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JuareZz,
Well i played rook a few times (a played 100% of my game vs ai till now...( becuase of the online issues...)) and i always took hammer slam to destroy a group of creeps, and i really thought that this was imba. If you have skilled it up to level 3 or higher, u only need to walk into a group of creeps and make your hammer slam, when there are 8 creeps, all are dead. So what can you do with spit?? Spit is anti-heroe, h-slam is anti creep. Thats how i got this. It´s the same like torchbearers fireball vs heroes, and his ring of fire vs creeps. You could also complain about the ring of fire being not an effective hero killer.
I don't agree. Hammer Slam (and the occasional lucky ninja Boulder Roll) is how I get the majority of my kills with The Rook.

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June 4, 2009 10:44:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes, but they are also very good (and much better than spit) vs creeps. And this is what the OP ignored...

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June 4, 2009 12:30:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

-1

 

imo theyre balanced.

why do you even compare these 2 totally different skills.spit is for harass and towers whereas smash is huge killing blow and creep killer..

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June 4, 2009 12:53:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hammer Slam pwns. The enemy often chases you when you're low on health, so you spin and roll/slam, and you can often become the chaser or the killer, instead of the chased or killed. Some of the weaker DGs like Regulus or TB can be especially vulnerable to this. They're chasing you, turn around, roll, slam, kill with treb/ToL. People just don't take single skills to do that much damage. 

Not just that, but it can work amazingly in team fights, as Hammer Slam can frequently land on two+ enemy melee DGs. I've won entire 3v1s with this tactic. You just need fast reactions after the roll. Also good for smashing those annoying Bishops.

As another poster pointed out, the long time also allows easy cancel if the enemy's dodging. It's a poor Rook who allows his Slam to complete on nothing or just fringe damage.

I also find the secondary weapons to be extremely powerful.

 

Frankly, Hammer Slam has one big advantage that Spit can never have, which is that everyone will RUN THE FUCK AWAY. It's easy to use this to protect yourself, towers, teammates. Nobody with any brains comes up to a Rook with maxed Hammer Slam, it's a deathwish. Especially comboed with Towers and HoL. Who will keep chasing for the kill when they're the ones standing underneath the massive hammer.

Not that I don't think it needs buffing. Good players can interrupt it too easily. But it has a much, much poorer reputation than it deserves.

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June 4, 2009 1:32:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

"Frankly, Hammer Slam has one big advantage that Spit can never have, which is that everyone will RUN THE FUCK AWAY. "

 

Ha, I play as Regulus, and you think I don't spend a lot of time running away from spit?

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June 4, 2009 2:17:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think both are mostly fine, except spit could use a range reduction, maybe even make it a melee range skill instead.

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June 4, 2009 3:17:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Shadow_Avenger,
I think both are mostly fine, except spit could use a range reduction, maybe even make it a melee range skill instead.

Of course then you'd have to rename it "Drool".

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June 4, 2009 7:56:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with DeadMG there. Hammer slam is very powerful. Especially against people who aren't watching out for it. Granted, people who don't see the rook going into his big-ol' arm swingy hammer strike just plain aren't paying attention. 

If it was any harder to get away from it though, I think it'd be OP. I mean right now its scary for demigods who are able to see it coming, but it plain out rapes players who can't see it coming. It's also freaking amazing vs creeps and towers.

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June 4, 2009 8:00:57 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SetarcosNous,

Of course then you'd have to rename it "Drool".

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June 5, 2009 5:31:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Boulder roll then immediately hammer slam 

 

Spit -> Orb of defiance/Health pot etc etc -> Win.

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June 5, 2009 6:11:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hammerslam is awesome, especially when your allies help you a bit by stunning the enemies.

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June 5, 2009 5:11:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting csebal,
Quoting tperge,
reply 6

Hell make HoL remove spit.  It wouldnt heal you becasue you would take 1 sec of dmg, but at least it could remove spit. There needs to be a universal non-favor counter.



Sorry, but WHY exactly NEEDS there be a counter? Is there a counter for the TBs fireball? Is there a counter for the Sedna pounce? They are all just damage dealing abilities, that in addition deal INSTANT damage. Spit is just a Dot. It can kill you if you are low on health, but even then it takes time to do so, which gives you plenty of time to counter it, and countering it means lots of thing: porting home to the crystal (takes about 3 seconds), drinking a health potion (takes 0.5 seconds), etc..

Use your damn imagination and realize that theres healing beyond heart of life and abilities in this game.

This. There is no "hard" counter to fireball, pounce, or penitence. Why does there need to be some single item/ability which automatically makes spit useless?

I agree with the poster above me (Schobbo). Hammer slam can deal absurd damage, you just need to line it up right (boulder roll or have an ally stun).

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