Demigod: Staging updates – v1.01 talk

By Frogboy on June 2, 2009 12:35:49 PM from

It’s hard to believe that the updates we’ve done so far have all been on the v1.0 series. v1.01 is the first update that GPG and Stardock consider significant enough to give a new version number.

Of course, that means testing and testing and testing and if we’ve learned anything in the past month is that the on-line testing procedures were inadequate. So on the one hand, we want to get these updates out quickly because there are so many important improvements and on the other hand, we don’t want to put something out that has glaring problems for some people.

For example, one of the things we’re struggling with today is that occasionally Skirmish won’t start games. That is, the players will be connected and it’ll send the message to start the game but it won’t. So we are trying to figure out what causes that.

On the other hand, other key things are working so much better. In-game connectivity is vastly improved. The handling if quitters and disconnects is improved. The stats are far more robust. The AI is noticeably better. A lot of command queuing issues are resolved. The bandwidth use is significantly reduced which should have a pretty big impact. So we have all those things nailed down and yet, we have the issue where skirmish games just get stuck about 25% of the time which is simply a show stopper.

Last night I played a game with just AI. It was the first time I’ve played against AI since shortly after release that was “fun” since before, the AI’s were just cannon fodder – throwing themselves at towers and just being ridiculously easy to manipulate. I can still see areas for improvement with it but kudos to GPG for taking this stuff seriously.

Now all that said, we have a list of things that we think need to be focused on in the coming weeks – both from a business point of view and from a game play point of view.

Finding ways for friends to get into skirmish games on the same team.
Dealing with “rage quitting”. v1.1 (not v1.01) will have a concede option so hopefully that will help.
Finding ways to provide more free maps and Demigods that doesn’t break the bank.
Coming up with new powers that are fun and increase strategic depth.
Finding ways to keep retail sales up. Sales are good now but let’s be real here, updates are fueled by new sales. If you guys have ideas on what it would take to get more of your friends to buy copies at retail and on Impulse let us know.
Building a system where we just host the games. Demigod would think it’s “peer to peer” but we would actually make it client server with Stardock hosting all the games ala Elemental.

But right now, we’re working on the skirmish issue still. I’ll keep you guys up to date on where that is. I’ll be on the chat area too today.

+897 Karma | 120 Replies

Yes, what Wolf said, Replays please! In the "olden days" I would give an AAR on the BBS about how an online game went (lets see if any youngsters know what those are), but having to do it today, is, well, "Olden". Replays are way more important than a demo if you ask me; especially if replays are included IN the demo. I'm telling you, potential players will download top replays, watch them with the demo and get really stoked. And replays are almost manditory if you want ranked and clan games to get going.

And yes, more 50% coupouns please: Not one of my friends would use my half-off coupon because of the games current condition and lack of content/maps/demigods/replays.

i dont think a map editor is not possible.

3D modeling is not needed to create such maps, it wasnt in Unreal 2k4 and it is not in other ego shooters.

for sure, i know what you mean with the 3D modeling, the background behind the map, like the ancient ruins and so on.

but those are just some other pre-build shapes shich you can select from. but the possibility to add customs should also be available.

and thats like it has to work in the other parts as well:

1. set up something like a "skeleton" of the map, where the walkable lines and areas are, where the shops, walls, towers and so on are placed.

2. give the basic structures and layouts for the roads, set the background animation.

3. set effects of flags and such things, the fine-tunig.

for standard the custom maps need to be played in a separately game mode without archivement points, until they get verified by the devs _and the community_ for beeing "clean". some individuals maybe would try to come up with some weird things to cheat else... and for balance for sure . this would also bring some aditional game modes into demigod after some time i think, if the mechanics are open enough

thats the way i would try to set up the map editor and custom map system. and i also think that it would be a great addition even if its not 4 free but included in an addon.

for sure thats not a big point on the whishlist, thats a complete own project, but hey, you see what the map editor made out of WC3! i think its worthy.

EDIT: with no 3D modeling required i meant, to construct new maps with the layouts which are already existing. for new ones, for sure it would be essentially. for example for new backgrounds or new area-structures.

Quoting Doddler,

reply 25

I'm going to guess that the 'free weekend' idea that steam has going for some of its games is a big sales driver, especially when it coincides with new content (like maps/items) and/or game sale, maybe something like that would be handy?

I do see why its still 1.01... aside from connectivity fixes, the game hasn't really been updated at all since release. Erebus's bite fix is the only balance change that I can remember.

They have the advantage with DRM - as I understand it Stardock doesn't have this so I don't think they can open and close a game at will. It's a great marketting tool!

how do I update to this version...

I always thought updates = new sales, not the other way around

I guess Frogboy is meaning that budget is needed for update and that money must come from somewhere. So having new sales means more money available for doing updates.

I'd say if the only problem with 1.01 is starting Skirmish games then I say spend a bit more time on it but get it out the door anyway and work on the Skirmish issue. I don't know about anyone else but I can't ever get connected to a Skirmish or Pantheon game (no problems with Custom). So going from 0% to 75% would be a HUGE improvement.

1.01 is now available on impulse, I just updated mine

Can we have a proper release notes please - helps to publise the game rather than saying I think it has x in it which sounds c%^&

5. Finding ways to keep retail sales up. Sales are good now but let’s be real here, updates are fueled by new sales. If you guys have ideas on what it would take to get more of your friends to buy copies at retail and on Impulse let us know.

Replays. So people dont think the game is useless for the competitive scene.

REPLAYS & CLAN FUNCTION !

This is so elemental and important for MP-RTS that i cant believe it isnt still in game....

Talk about it...

In response to this:

'Finding ways to keep retail sales up. Sales are good now but let’s be real here, updates are fueled by new sales. If you guys have ideas on what it would take to get more of your friends to buy copies at retail and on Impulse let us know. "

I know this will NOT be a popular sentiment here...but....

As far as generating $$$ for updates you should either think of subscriptions or microtransactions, not "new sales".

" Subscriptions!?!?!?! for an rpg/rts?!?!?!! Bah!!!!! No way!!!! "

Yep...that's what I said.

The MMO model is so potentially lucrative because of recurring subscriptions. It's that simple.

People will pay for ongoing additional content as long as it's fun, affordable, and worthwhile.

Now, to be honest I'm not sure if right now there's enough content in Demigod to warrant a subscription. I'm not sure a few new maps or Demigods would warrant tihs either. However, at some point most of your "new sales" popcorn kernels will have popped. At that point, you will have to generate more $$$ cashflow or Demigod will be a dead game.

The dead game phenomenon is the usual model, with a few exceptions (Starcraft and Warcraft 3 most notably). But even then, Blizzard is well known for supporting their games years after initial release. Part of what financed that is WoW subscriptions and that's another story altogether.

Another way to do it is the "Expansion" model, which really is in essence a subscription model that you pay for in a lump sum for a lump sum of additional content.

Either way, I think you will be hard pressed to have an ongoing profitable business model just selling new games. In the face of Starcraft 2 coming down the pike, there's just only so much RTS market share you are going to get. On the other hand, if you create and ongoing service relationship with your hardcore fanbase (let's say worldwide that's 10,000 people) where they give you $4.95 to $14.95 per month for ongoing content and gameplay features then you could generate enough cashflow to implement the kinds of features I know you'd really like to support.

" THIS IS AN OUTRAGE, NO ONE WILL STAND FOR THAT !!!!! "

Well, don't be surprised that Blizzard may very well be moving in this direction with the new Battle.net. There's rumors that ongoing online services for SC2 and Diablo3 will be play to pay.

" BUT THAT WILL LIMIT THE PLAYER BASE !!!! "

Ummm....yes....and no....

First off, if you turn that money back into the game and make it better and better your player base will grow. This is the World of Warcraft model. Basically, get people addicted and add enough content at a certain rate to keep us following the carrots. A good game made better will attract more people, not less.

On the other hand, a mediocre game w/ no ongoing additional content will die off, no matter how "FREE" it is. WTF cares if you are the world's best player of some game that no one cares about? Now, if you are a champion SC player, then everyone cares.

It's true, lot's of people won't pay on an ongoing basis. But some, maybe many, will...if the game is good enough.

So let me ask, do you want 100% of no money, or 50% of some money?

But SC and WC3 weren't/aren't pay to play models. Well, other than the expansions are really a lump sum subscription for a lump sum of content, then you are right. But that was before MMO's. That was before WoW. That was before Xbox live.

Games are not just games anymore.

They are hobbies. They are lifestyles. They are passions. And for the elite, if not Vitamin D deprived, they are a profession.

I hope SD does well, because I love the fact it is is my home state of Michigan, where I live. Same for GPD, because I like Demigod, it's a great strategy game. But I doubt you will get a huge player base and additional sales in the years going forward without alot more content and features added to the game. If you can't bankroll that now then you need cashflow and I'd suggest some form of subscription or micro-transaction model. If it's good enough, we will pay...guaranteed.

Let's say we take $4.95/mo and times that by 10,000 peeps.... That about $50,000 per month....

How much service can you provide with that?

Let's say you can get 100,000 people paying $14.95 a month (I don't know if you could that, but imagine if you could)... that's about $1,500,000 per month...

How much service can you provide with that?

Now let's talk Blizzard numbers....

$14.95 per month (actually I believe it's less in Asia because they have a different model over there) x 10,000,000 subs.... $150,000,000 per month....

How much could you with that? Could you imagine what that would feel like?

====

Back on earth it seems like a lot of game companies release a lot of shitty games from year to year. Maybe that's a way to make money I don't know.

So, the question I have is...do you want to release a bunch of mediocre games and hope people by your new titles....or do you want to focus on a few titles, make them well, and support them over the long haul?

====

Now as for a direct answer to your question: "How can we get your friends to buy the game".

1.) Make what you have work, flawlessly. No connection issues, no "ability bug", no bad AI. We can't promote a broken game.

2.) add all the clan features and team stuff

3.) add replays.

4.) add anything (tournaments come to mind) to promote the game as an "e sport" where people actually care about ranking and performing.

5.) make sure casuals aren't left out in the content cold or gangraped by premades. lot's of people just want to play other people their skill level.

6.) playable demo.

7.) playable tutorial.

8.) additional content added on a periodic basis that keeps us hanging on for the "next thing". think of yourself as a drug pusher...get us hooked and keep feeding us the good stuff on an ongoing basis to keep us hooked.

9.) fine tune game balance

10.) community support for mods, map editor, and ability for people to "create their own" demigods for custom games.

That's all I can think of right now...if you can't bankroll all that then figure out a way to sucker us diehards into paying for it.

Subscription model? Micro-transactions? Expansion model? Player-investor model (we pay to "own" a portion of the IP)? I don't know...something...

Reasons my friends don't buy a copy of Demigod:

Too hard to play with each other online (sounds like you guys are working on this)
Playing online is NOT a great experience right now. Yes I have had some very fun games. But by large most games involve people who quit, disconnect, etc.
AI is poor, so playing alone is not much fun (sounds like you guys are working on the AI, but lets face it, it will never replace playing other people)
Playing on my LAN is much more fun for my friends and I currently. Stardock's LAN friendly license is the only reason we are still playing.

Things that get me and my friends to "impulse" buy software (haha)

When Steam offers games free for the weekend to try, and typically offer the game for a discount during that time

How would you get more money from me (I already own Demigod)?

I would be fine purchasing additional content. Come out with 8 new Demigods, a bunch of items, and a few more maps and I'll give you a fair amount of cash for it ($10?). I do think it would be a kind gesture if GPG would put out a couple new demigods and maps for free though.

I think adding more demigods will be a great way fuel sales, along with an imroved multiplayer system. The only thing that Dota has over Demigod is quantity. So many heroes and items its hard to ever get bored. Demigod already has better quility characters than Dota because of the talents, but adding more will be great. Having enough so that every player in a 10 man game can choose their own DG, and still have a few left over, would be the best thing GPG could do to imporve Demigod.

Creating map that doesn't break the bank? Release a good tool/guide and let the community do it!

As someone said earlier if you do create micro expansions please make sure people with it can still play against vanilla demigod owners. Dont fragment the community. Think the Company of Heroes model. I would happily buy a micro expansion just like I did with Sins. As long as the connection issues are sorted of course

As for maps if it is possible to have amap editor get it out to the community. You have a very loyal (some too loyal) fanbase following which love the game. Get them to create new maps and release these in a monthly patch with new maps so everyone has to have the new maps. Make it a best map competition where every month teh top 5 maps are chosen and made as an update.

Looking forward to 1.01 and smart proxies.

Cheers guys ona top job and looking for input

Silk (a New Zealander looking forward to the release of the game here)

P.S. On another topic could we please have the iRC channel message explaining that under 350 ping is all good for demigod please?

Quoting AnnihilatorX,

reply 15

Creating map that doesn't break the bank? Release a good tool/guide and let the community do it!

I 2nd this. Or at least one of these options:

1. Release a Blender plugin.

2. Release a xml spec that will be compilied by a tool you provide into the map file.

3. Release specs for the actual maps.

350 ping

I have never seen a game (EDIT: of Demigod) with 350 ping that didn't stutter or pause every five seconds. It might be fine for you, but that rook trying to aim his boulder roll / slam combo will ragequit pretty quickly after his first three misses.

1. Continue working on improving connectivity and connection features

2. Balance adjustments/miscellaneous fixes

3. Get a demo out

4. Replays and clan support

5. More Demigods and maps

6. Offer occasional weekend sales (say 25% or even 50% off)

7. Reap the fruit of your labors

Quoting dgl-DalzK,

reply 9

Replays. So people dont think the game is useless for the competitive scene.

Stats properly recording. I hate it when my games are not recorded - especially after a close fight / comeback win.

Quoting alban987,

reply 5

Would something similar to fallout3 / fable 2's DLC system work for you guys?

Maybe a first round of free updates to include DG's and maps and then perhaps later on down the road a DLC pack with say 4 new DG's and 4 new maps or something along those lines?

Paid DLC, particularly on the PC, is an A+ way to get backlash. Imo, particularly with digital distribution, paid DLC is unnecessary- especially for games like Demigod that have broad appeal but that are very, very far from having tapped into their whole audience.

Despite Valve's present bout of stupidity (L4D 2? Seriously? It's like Brad knew about that back when he was making his series of speeches about ensuring that digital distribution is never monopolized b/c imo L4D 2 is just flat-out the smoking gun that indicates that even Valve is not trustworthy with that kind of power), Team Fortress 2 sets a very good example oh how a relatively consistent stream of free updates can maintain strong sales of a game over a very long period of time.

Gabe Newell has given plenty of presentations about how those updates have kept TF2 sales strong, but qualitatively I can tell you that during the Spy/Sniper Free Weekend (and speaking of that, get a proper MP demo out- I know you're working on it- as I know quite a few people who... "acquired" Demigod mostly, surprisingly, for once, due to lack of funds who really like the game and are looking to buy it when they get the money and I definitely think two new Demigods + a sale would have a ton of them take the bite), I probably played with more new people than I ever had during any of the other free weekends and just about all of them ended-up grabbing the game because of that opportunity and because of the promise of continued support.

Then there is also Impulse to consider. As much as it helps to have Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor on Impulse and such, it's ultimately Stardock games that really get people into using Impulse. I got into Impulse to begin with because of Sins of a Solar Empire and after that I really started to give it a fair shake against Steam and as I hinted at before, when CoH: Tales of Valor came out and was on both Steam and Impulse, I got it off Impulse. Sure, the slightly cheaper price was "the deciding factor", but to be honest it was really more about supporting Impulse and endorsing Impulse's handling of digital distribution (being able to run games without having Impulse booted-up or even installed) than the price. Numerous of my friends now, as a result of Demigod, have also similarly gotten into Impulse and Stardock on the whole and whereas before it was Steam this and Steam that, Impulse is now at least as viable a candidate for them (improving general friends features would likely put many of them solidly in the Impulse camp; still can't quite beat for FPS games the ability to view what all your friends are playing and then to be able to join their game without having the game booted-up before you click join).

So just focusing on providing good, long-term customer service and free content for Demigod imo will keep long-term sales up and bring Impulse to many, many new gamers. Paid DLC though I feel will kill some of the enthusiasm for Stardock and Demigod and will distance some potential, new converts (particularly many of those I talked about above who have just "acquired" the game now but are impressed enough with it that as soon as it goes on sale they'll grab it- my 50% off coupon could only satisfy one of those friends- or might even pay full price if more Demigods/maps are added). And definitely, speaking of Valve and L4D 2, Stardock I feel has a really, really good opportunity here to definitively thrust itself ahead of Valve for post-release customer support and service. I and many, many others basically felt betrayed and completely backstabbed by Valve's announcement of L4D 2 (particularly when you realize that the Dead Air/Death Toll Versus campaigns didn't take five months because they actually took five months but took so long because Valve was already working on another way to extract $50 from us when the only reason I paid that at launch was because Team Fortress 2 inspired a confidence in Valve that I felt the lack of those maps would be quickly rectified and that far more than that would later come down the pipeline), and I'll be quite honest in that leaves a huge opening for Stardock to capitalize on that- perhaps you won't appreciate the comparison to StarCraft's Arcturus Mengsk, but hell, many people would gladly take a Mengsk right now- and if you just so happen to not turn into the Terran Dominion then all the better.

Please don't sell map packs, tehy fracture a community. Sell new demigods and the like sure but map packs restrict who you can play with.

As for the 350 ping comment, fair enough if you don't get much love from it.

Since most people seem to be responding to point 5 I'm going to start with that. I'm going to respond to point 6 afterward as well. There are some good suggestions in this thread that I'd like to re-iterate.

First and foremost connectivity needs to be addressed. I've yet to play 1.01 (patching now), so it might be stacks better already.

1. Delivering on the promise to make marginal connections able to play 2v2 (128kbps upstream) and 5v5 (256kbps upstream) will go a long way, provided people with 128kbps upstream connections only get put in 2v2 games.

2. Being lumped in 2v1 Pantheon games sucks. Don't know if 1.01 fixes this?

New sales vs. updates is a bit of a chicken and egg conundrum. In order to get more people to buy the game you need to provide content.

1. New maps. I agree with a previous poster that there doesn't seem to be a feasible way to charge for these.

2. New items. I don't feel these are necessary, and not nearly as important as new Demigods. I also don't see that they can be charged for as part of an expansion.

3. I agree (with a previous poster) that new Demigods can be sold in expansion packs to make use of your existing fanbase so long as they're balanced and there are a decent number of them. At least 4 I'd say. I'm sure that coming up with 4 more unique DGs and balancing them with the existing one won't exactly be a cakewalk so I don't know how feasible it would be.

4. The single player campaign (what about co-op?) that was mentioned around launch day might just attract a whole other school of gamer to the title.

Community involvement! One of the hallmarks of a Gas Powered Games game is mod-ability. Demigod is the first GPG game I know of that shipped without a toolset.

1. Let fans make their own maps. They might be models but communities will often surprise you with what they can do with even the most complex tools.

2. The community AI scripting idea (including competition) was great! Will that still happen?

The demo

I think a multiplayer demo could really change the minds a lot of people that've been put off the game by bad word-of-mouth and bad reviews.

And now for my scheduled rant and usual begging to *please* not make those of us in the southern hemisphere (or elsewise at the arse end of the world) play Pantheon on your servers.

quoting post

Demigod would think it’s “peer to peer” but we would actually make it client server with Stardock hosting all the games ala Elemental.

I understand your desire to do this, but as I've said before this will directly affect the ability for those of in South Africa (or elsewhere in Sub-Saharan africa I'd wager) and Oceania (Australia, New Zealand) to make use of the ImpulseReactor matchmaking system. Unless you're planning on rolling out servers that are directly connected to every major fibre backbone in the world?

Quoting BigAbboTT,

reply 18

I've played quite a number of games (2v1, sadly) where my ping to the others was between 300 and 400ms and it was quite playable. The problem is caused by PCs that can't run the game properly I think (i.e. sim speed) rather than ping.

i don't think there's a shortage of maps or clear-cut balance issues. i don't see how anyone can make statements otherwise.

on the whole, the community's competitive experience has been limited to PUBs. balance has to be put under the microscope and examined. i don't think that's really possible, yet, because the games aren't competitive enough due to factors like random teammates and the game being NEW.

a lack of maps? everyone has exhausted themselves on these maps only after a month and a half? i haven't, and i've played a lot.

The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

Demigod: Staging updates – v1.01 talk