Blame us, not rage quitters

By on May 17, 2009 3:36:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
+1477

One of the things that I have felt really bad about is that players are made to feel like they can't concede a game lest they be called "rage quitters".

What GPG and us are talking about is adding a concede option so that people can exit the game and help move the game along. 

My proposal is that when someone concedes, they leave the game, get their favor points in progress and that Demigod is GONE (not replaced by AI).

What do you guys think?

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May 17, 2009 3:41:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I say cut the favour they gain when they leave by half. Since it's not always the end of the game, such favour isn't actually decided. Likewise, they may not have ended up staying for the entire length of the game. It would be a way to stop people from abusing the system to farm favour.

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May 17, 2009 3:41:10 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Very good idea.

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May 17, 2009 3:44:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think this is a great idea and much needed.  Alternatively, it could be made into a voting type system.  Let the team decide as a whole if they're going to surrender or not.

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May 17, 2009 3:50:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I also think it is a good idea and I would support the prior suggestion about reducing the points upon leaving. I would also consider making a team voting option as well.

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May 17, 2009 3:52:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm more in favor of voting for Surrender.

If majority agrees, game is ended, if not it continues and anyone quitting will get NOTHING.

You must NOT reward quitting. Quitting is a deliberate choice and someone legitimately leaving because he doesn't have time left to play does not care about rewards, he really has to go.

Ragequitters are just sore losers, they must not be rewarded in anyway and need to learn to accept defeat.

If someone leaves, then rest of team can vote again for Surrender.

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May 17, 2009 3:52:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I am not 100% sure on how favor points are awarded or earned, so this may be an uninformed comment.

That said, if someone conceded and the points are set at that moment, then all future progress on the natural progression of the game and any achievements that the winning team might have had will be eliminated.

Basically, it will cut off any potential once a concession occurs, and since there are 2 players what do you do when only one person conceeds?

The games last 30 minutes to an hour.  If you can't stick it out till the end then why did you start playing anyway?

My solution is to fix the matching and connection problems so people don't feel so hopeless about being rolled.  Right now, if you get rolled, you know you have 30 minutes to an hour waiting to get a solid connection with 3 other players.  So rage quit could just be a symtom that is fixed when people believe they can get into another quality game reliably.

my2c

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May 17, 2009 3:57:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Very glad to hear this is being worked on.

 

I think it's essential to remove the Demigod from the game, with no AI replacement. The tricky part of conceding is in preventing abuse by either team.

 

For reference, TDA rules in DOTA allow a team to forfeit the match if every team member types 'ff' after 50 (or 55?) minutes of play. At that point it's safe to say there is no forfeit abusing, but it's a relatively arbitrary metric to esteem when the game is truly over.

 

Voting as a team is a good idea, but is susceptible to griefers refusing to end the game (or disagreements amongst players). Limiting the favor they receive to what they have immediately earned is a good idea, but would this encourage people to refuse to forfeit in order to get any end-game favor they may receive?

 

An interesting option might be to have a set of conditions that must be met before a team can concede. Similar to the after 50 minute rule in TDA DOTA, instead the condition is based on game status; i.e. flag captures, war rank, total gold per team, kill-death ratios, and other variables. This way, a team would be allowed to forfeit and retain all of their currently earned favor points only if the game is truly over, so they aren't able to deny the opposing team of a fair, full game. Also, it prevents the opposing team sitting on an overwhelming advantage while one player on the losing team refuses to leave for whatever reason.

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May 17, 2009 4:03:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So bascially now instead of someone quitting, someone will quit but get favour and their Demigod isnt replaced by a.i? Why could I not rage quit by not doing this?

I think there is nothing wrong with people wanting to leave a game whenever they want. As long as they get a loss for it, and if everyone quits then the game should end.

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May 17, 2009 4:11:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Now I just need to goad Frogboy into rage-quitting...

 

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May 17, 2009 4:19:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Rewarding quitting with favor points is a step back.  Fix favor points and INCREASE favor points for the losing team while keeping it at 0 favor points for leavers.  This will help reduce rage quitters, not giving them favor points for leaving.  

 

The part about removing heroes who leave is good though, and they should drop their items in town and split their gold.  If it turns out that this is overpowered (stacking of one hero) then nerf it a bit, by say, dropping one random item and half gold split.

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May 17, 2009 4:26:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sorry Frogboy, I don't like your idea. I think this will just lead to a bad tendency where fewer games will be played to completion, and forfitting long before the game would normally be finished will be consider the new norm. I do not want to play a game where win/lose theorycrafting replaces the endgame of every match.

Selfish, impatient people (that ragequitters are) need to be dissuaded from leaving a game in progress. Punish them, take favor away, implement a 'quit game in progress' % that will be displayed in the lobby, make leaving games hurt if it happens often. Make them understand that quitting a game in progress ruins the game, and it is not acceptable. I realize there are many problems, like seperating disconnects from fake disconnects and quits etc. But it will lead to a better game in the end.

You wouldn't be the first ones to actually enforce some rules to keep a game organized, instead of just letting anyone do what they want.

I do think this idea could be acceptable (as a team surrender option) once someone does ragequit, and the remaining players are stuck in an already losing battle now with the 'help' of the AI that replaced the quitter however. And increase the difficulty of the AI replacements to Nightmare, or just drop the AI all together already sigh. Every player with more than 10 games under his belt is better than the Nightmare AI.

Lastly, I love the open communication and desire to please the customers coming from Stardock, but don't bow and scrape to selfish, impatient people who don't care about balance or the health of the game in the slightest. It makes me lose the respect I had. The devs should be the objective ones. The vast majority of players don't know what's good for themselves.

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May 17, 2009 4:28:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

For one, I strongly believe in conceding games when they are finished, but the people I call "rage quitters" are those who quit within the first 5-10 minutes because things went slightly unacceptable. That's like quitting a game of chess because you lost a pawn. It's ridiculous, and it's unfair to all of the remaining players.

 

For two, the way I would handle concessions is this: There is a vote to surrender which anyone can pick (minimum X minutes between votes, so that you cannot "vote spam" to grief other players), and requires a team to vote. If the vote passes, the game ends as if the citadel was immediately reduced to zero HP. You need the following percentages to pass it:

2v2: 100%

3v3: 100%

4v4: 75% (I think at this point it might be worth allowing one dissent and still passing)

5v5: 80%

Anyone who does not select an option DOES NOT COUNT for the purpose of determining percentage (So, if for some wild reason, 3 people are AFK on one team in a 5v5, the other two people can vote to surrender). This is incredibly important, as I've seen highly important in-game votes not pass due to many people having no opinion / being AFK.

Edit: I think it's important to emphasize that quitting early should be a TEAM decision. Demigod is a team game, and the mechanics of the game should encourage surrendering as a team or finishing as a team. We should NOT enable a single player to ruin a game by unilaterally conceding (and it does usually ruin the game due to the small team sizes and play mechanics of Demigod, so that is not hyperbole).

 

For three: If someone leaves, the remaining teammates should be able to vote to remove the bot, or it should be removed automatically. If this happens, the gold / items should be distributed over the rest of the team. Or optionally, automatically spent on Citadel upgrades*, so as to prevent one player from buying Ashkandor whenever their 2v2 teammate quits (I'm not sure how the rest of the community feels about the former option, so I included an alternative).

 

*If you wrote this code, you would need a decision tree for what upgrades to buy though, making it more complicated.

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May 17, 2009 4:31:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

imo , the whole team must decide to concede and cant happen before 10 mins into the game .

also , removing ai if someone "ragequits"/drops is very important.

and if a person leaves without conceding with his team , it would be cool if we could add a mark to that player so it can be seen by all players in the lobby or on the statuspage, matching only people within certain amount of marks with eachother in pantheon would be good aswell.

 

like 0-5 marks

6-15 marks

16-30 marks

30+marks.

 

5 marks removed per month would probably be sufficient to count out drops as well.

 

that would imo work to everyones advantage , and people who like to leave can play with the ragequitters as much as they want

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May 17, 2009 4:32:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting WickedDemiurge,
For one, I strongly believe in conceding games when they are finished, but the people I call "rage quitters" are those who quit within the first 5-10 minutes because things went slightly unacceptable. That's like quitting a game of chess because you lost a pawn. It's ridiculous, and it's unfair to all of the remaining players.

 

For two, the way I would handle concessions is this: There is a vote to surrender which anyone can pick (minimum X minutes between votes, so that you cannot "vote spam" to grief other players), and requires a team to vote. If the vote passes, the game ends as if the citadel was immediately reduced to zero HP. You need the following percentages to pass it:

2v2: 100%

3v3: 100%

4v4: 75%

5v5: 80%

Anyone who does not select an option DOES NOT COUNT for the purpose of determining percentage (So, if for some wild reason, 3 people are AFK on one team in a 5v5, the other two people can vote to surrender). This is incredibly important, as I've seen highly important in-game votes not pass due to many people having no opinion / being AFK.

 

For three: If someone leaves, the remaining teammates should be able to vote to remove the bot, or it should be removed automatically. If this happens, the gold / items should be distributed over the rest of the team. Or optionally, automatically spent on Citadel upgrades*, so as to prevent one player from buying Ashkandor whenever their 2v2 teammate quits (I'm not sure how the rest of the community feels about the former option, so I included an alternative).

 

*If you wrote this code, you would need a decision tree for what upgrades to buy though, making it more complicated.

 

/signed

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May 17, 2009 4:43:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

votes are too much of a hassle.

Instead there should be a surrender option, but the game is only surrendered once > 50% of the players choose to surrender. (That means both players in a 2v2, all but 1 player in 3v3 and 4v4, and 3 players in a 5v5).

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May 17, 2009 4:48:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If you do make concessions like that, I think you definitely need an option to to have a vote for a team concession as well. If you're already down, and that calalyzes (sp?) someone's departure, you're taking an already crippled team and amputating an arm (or leg, or whatever). For some, the loss of the first player is a death sentence to their team, and will subsequently split as well. 

Honestly I'd rather it be a whole team concession, and people who leave or are disconnected are replaced with AI, while some will balk at being forced to concede, it does prevent people from having a team that's already down suffer an amputation. I also think you should offer some bonus favor for sticking to it until the bitter end. My $0.02.

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May 17, 2009 4:52:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Instead there should be a surrender option, but the game is only surrendered once > 50% of the players choose to surrender. (That means both players in a 2v2, all but 1 player in 3v3 and 4v4, and 3 players in a 5v5).

So if im winning then two of my players in a 3v3 quit I automatically am forced to lose?

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May 17, 2009 4:56:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If its a team game on like pantheon with 2vs2 and one decides to leave, then what? We all know one DG vs 2 is unfair balance.

 

How is the one left supposed to win, when his ally already made the decision for both of them by leaving.

 

How to fix this i really dont know. Getting help from the AI is outta the question, as it is not a match for most people and will only give gold and xp to the enemy team.

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May 17, 2009 4:58:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dalzk, why would your allies do that

and if they leave right now chances are high the AI replacement just feeds and turns the tide

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May 17, 2009 5:01:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Stop replacing leavers with AI. Take the DOTA approach and give the remaining team members his income split amongst them, as well as the sell value of leaver's items split amongst his teammates. Also, if the entire enemy team leaves, please give me the win. I don't want to spend time playing VS AI, it's boring.

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May 17, 2009 5:05:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Just a few things:

Other RTS's don't have this problem to the same extent, since if the games outcome is know.. more or less everyone leaves, and rolls a new game.

However in DG (& dota for that sake as well) are pretty much the only RTS's that rage quitting is considered a shameful act.

With this in mind, it would be interesting if this problem could be appraoched in a similar fashion as other RTS's ..

So with this in mind, I think changing win conditions will change the perception of the expected game length... people may be more inclined to head out and start a new game, if all of a sudden we're up against team of AI.

Situation: Hop into a panth game, CURRENTLY if theres connection issues, people drop, w/e say it 3v3, and quickly turn 3v0 within first 30 seconds (damn quitters) .. Now I would have to finish this comp stomp before i cna have my "win" and my favour .. (and of course most importantly, the forces of light also get their favour!)

Now this situation, should it be replaced with an ability at the end there for the game to recognise that im more or less going to win (i dont recall ever losing to AI .. at least panth lvl ai), allow me to leave the game, and start finding a new one, with the system accepting my win/favour.

 

This would allow turn around to be increased, allowing my games per hour to go up, it would also mean I may not need to achieve the required win requirement, but maybe all the other heroes left. This could potentially have a side effect on panth macthes were people disconnect on launch, and then cause the panth game to START with ai ... then the game could be considered an auto-win or somesuch ..

 

The ultimate change I think comes down to making me not too concerned with people quitting .. making me able to get to the end of the day with more time played, in game, with real people.

 

Savvy?

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May 17, 2009 5:13:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

very good idea, a surrender option and no AI replacement.

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May 17, 2009 5:29:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree, no AI replacement, becaause no body can replace a player and it would make the game fair. Because what kills people a lot is that the enemy farms the AI for gold, making it pointless to play. I could continue to play a game if a teammate rage quit on me if they had no AI. I'd enjoy the challange, and try to make up for it with more exp and gold.

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May 17, 2009 5:30:43 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Your proposal sounds fine as is Frogboy. A simple loss is punishment enough as well as the humility that follows. However, in regards to people who ctrlaltdel the game or throttle their internet connection purposely to cause a disconnect, they should definitely be punished and quite harshly.

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May 17, 2009 5:32:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Now this situation, should it be replaced with an ability at the end there for the game to recognise that im more or less going to win (i dont recall ever losing to AI .. at least panth lvl ai), allow me to leave the game, and start finding a new one, with the system accepting my win/favour.

how about canceling that not even match? im no friend of freewins :/

the main issue at this point is the connectivity or the fact that GPG wants us to have botmatches ( i think most of us has joined a full ai match without disconnecting players). so if we fix that, we dont need to autowin any match.

 

about the Topic:

i agree with the team can decide if loss idea. i cant agree with giving away the gold from leaving player, if u go to mageslayer(or every other artefakt) in early game because of a quitter u can slay entire enemy team. a better ai for leaving players would be a small help.

just my 2 cents

 

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