Demigod: Breakthru

Yes!

By Frogboy on May 2, 2009 8:25:44 PM from

Okay, I now feel confident in publicly saying that I think that the connectivity issues some have had is going to go away next week.

Here's what we've built:

1. If you open ports 6112 to 6200 and port forward them to your IP on your router (this is for people who are familiar with this stuff) you'll get what is called direct connect.

2. If you don't do this, we will try to do a quick NAT connect. This takes longer but works for most people.

3. If NAT fails, you will be connected to our Proxy server system. This is not going to be super desireable at first because the physical location of the Proxy server is going to make the difference between a good and a lagfest. When the proxy server is nearby (east coast US player for instance to the east cost proxy server) it's perfectly good. But, for instance, if you're in Japan and it uses a proxy server in Singapore, you're adding 200ms to your latency which can make the game a total lag nightmare. so this is clearly your last result.

...

Now, right now, the current version of Demigod uses a connectivity server that ONLY does option 2. That's because it was decided early on that users shouldn't have to open ports. This, IMO, should NEVER have been the first option because when you force even technically sophisticated users into this system, you end up having a LOT of unnecessary connections to these NAT servers.

...

So, I feel confident that this next week is going to be the turning point for those people who have had connectivity difficulties PLUS the whole range of stat stuff, pantheon stuff, etc. will all come into line as well because, as I've said elsewhere, because the connectivity thing was our #1 priority, everyone, including the people who would resolve favor items and favor points and accurate win/loss stuff have been pulled onto this.

Heck, this past week, I had the ART team from Elemental working on doing benchmarks for speeing up NAT (That's where we finally concluded that NAT, for P2P is just feasible when there's thousands of players, it would simply require so many NAT servers, located around the world, to make it not totally awful that it wasn't financially logical - we'd be better off just hosting all the traffic which is better anyway).

We absolutely do not want to do any more "betas". The betas don't really solve our problems. We're getting rave emails from people in support today saying how this beta "totally fixes connectivity". NO, it doesn't. The only reason it seems that way is because there's so fewer people using the beta servers. If you check impulsereactor.dll, it's still the same one from day 0. So the betas don't really help because it gives us the same false sense of success that the actual open beta had.

The other problem with the beta is that it splits the multiplayer community which is really a problem. Right now, the Demigod MP community is fragmented. You've got a ton of people on Game Ranger. a Bunch of people on Himachi, others on Demigod release and some on the beta. And you get some very poor results hwen you play Skirmish or Pantheon or just find games.

Now one of the things that I've always been painfully aware of in online games is that you need a critical mass of users to make it work. With Demigod, we have some plans on how to make sure there's always lots of people to play with once the MP is bullet proof both in terms of connectivity and stat tracking. As someone who has been ejected from a pantheon game during connection, I know we have to do some QUICK changes to some of this stuff in order for the MP experience to have any integrity.

First, one of the things we did is we have everyone's email address who has updated the game. When we start the next-gen pantheon with favor points, achievements, favor items, stat tracking, disconnects dealt with and of course bullet proof MP (all of which I expect to be done this week) we will email everyone letting them know where we are at.

Second, the Stardock marketing push will actually begin. After that day 0 debacle with the MP connectivity being so crummy, I made marketing halt all Demigod marketing efforts. Those will go into high gear probably in the third week of May.

Third, and this is where we need your help: The demo. We will be working with GPG on the demo but I was thinking of proposing that the demo for Demigod be multiplayer ONLY. Moreover, I would like the demo players to be able to play online with legitimate players. Here's where we need your help: What do you think would be a good way to limit this demo then in order to get people to still buy the game?

Fourth, we plan to start formal Demigod tournmants with cash and prizes for the winners.

Fifth, Stardock is working on an update to Impulse Reactor that will allow people to have more control over the types of people people are matched up with. Think of it being like eHarmony but for gaming. You'll be able to describe the type of gamer you are and the match making system will pick out people for you. This feature is actually being developed for Elemental but because Demigod uses Impulse Reactor, it'll get that for free.

Sixth, Stardock moderators will soon be introduced into the online community. This will probably happen in mid-May. The idea is, if we have forum moderators, why not multiplayer ones? Their job will be to provide enjoyable multiplayer experiences (i.e. good sports, skilled player, etc.) PLUS they will be able to add or subtract in-game karma from players. People who are just nasty or horrible to other players will lose karma points. People who are good sports and good citizens will get points. Those with higher karma will tend to get matched up. Yes, we know this is controversal. Players will see the karma as part of their account and there will be a way for users who feel they were unfairly negated to appeal.

Seventh, all people who have bought Demigod at retail or direct up May 10th (and didn't return the game obviously) will be getting a coupon that will let them purchase a second copy of Demigod for 50% off for a limited time as a way for us to show appreciation for this community that has put their faith and trust in us.

Thanks everyone!

+912 Karma | 288 Replies

Awesome!

Can I just get a free upgrade to the Collectors Edition instead of the 50% off? My friends already have Demigod...

You guys are amazing!

Demo -

2 Demigods, 2 maps. 1 Assassin class, 1 General class.

Suggestion for Demo:

Limit demo to ONE map only.

Limit choice of Demigods to 1 General/1 Assassin.

When game is complete, dont' show stats in demo, and instead provide a 10-20% discount code for purchase online and give direct link to download game.

PAY ME ILL MODERATE AND GO PEW PEW PEW

jk, nice news sounds good!

I think the Demo should have only 2 characters unlocked. Idealy it would be one assassin and one general. Also, maybe only have a few (like 3 or 4) of the favor items unlocked, because favor items are supposed to be purchased over a period of time. I don't think they should be allowed into Pantheon, and in fact maybe they should only be allowed to play skirmishes and LAN. I think LANs should have maps restricted, maybe one small and one large one available, However, I think for online skirmishes they would need to all be available. Maybe they can only host on 2 maps, but can join any.

I disagree with no favor because that will have them at a disadvantage and also maybe not even understand how it works. I think it would be better to give the demo-ers a taste of it.

That's all I can think of atm.

Quoting fixmyfavor,

reply 5

Can those of us who don't have any use for a second copy of Demigod get 50% off our first copy of Demigod instead (via 50% refund)?

AWESOME

Thanks very much Frogboy, Stardock, and GPG for working so hard to make Demigod a great game despite the initial launch woes. Amazing and stellar communication and work ehtic being displayed here, and should be a lesson for all game developers and publishers to see.

I will be telling my friends to buy Demigod, as it really deserves to be played.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Do not make it MP only. I have the game and I'm still playing SP just to figure out the basics of each demigod

That kinda makes sense, but multiplayer is just so much more fun. Plus an influx of people into online play will help stimulate the multiplayer community.

I think the best way to limit the Demo is to only allow 2 Demigods. One General, one Assassin. No Patheon and No Favor points. Let them play all the maps. The should be able to get a sense of a 1v1 to a 5v5.

make it one map (prison would be best.) and one assassin and one general. the weakest of the two statistically puts them at queen of thorns and torch bearer. you could limit items like the artifact shop but thats up to you i think what has been said would be pretty cool.

Great idea on the 50% off coupon!

can we gift the 50% off coupon?

Quoting Gallifray,

reply 16

All of it sounds good but the demo part. Maybe if there was a way for the demo player just to player the demo players but I'm just worried that if the demo players get out into the normal player games and know nothing about the game they will be yelled at for been newbs. This might turn them away from the game.

If the demo players can only play with other demo players they will both no nothing yet and gett a chance to learn and enjoy the game.

I in a sense agree with this. The game is not designed to be friendly to newcomers, it punishes the entire team for having a player that doesn't know what he is doing, they will get yelled at if they are playing with paying customers. Atleast it will mean the majority of the new players coming in will have a "thick skin" I guess.

Favor Points locked is good move.

2 Demigods only, 1 a General, 1 an Assassin, 1 Light, 1 Dark

If they are going to be mixed with the paying customers limiting purchasable items is not a good idea. Who is going to want, not only a noob, but a noob who can't purchase better items to aid the team? [edit: after thinking about this more maybe it could be a good, force them to spend money on citadel and learn playing as a team is better before they even start paying ]

The only match type I would allow them to enter is Skirmish because it is all random teams, unless you think the number of people that will purchase the game because he and a friend sign up and enjoy it will outweigh the number of people that will simply play with a friend on free to play forever. I think free forever players would be far more numerous myself but I don't have data to back it up, just a gut feeling. Regardless, I would not allow them to enter Pantheon, that needs to be a perk for paying.

WTF WTF WTF WTF this is the ONLY thing i don't like at ALL.
Smack talk is a BIG PART of DotA, continued on to be a BIG PART of this game, and practically all online MP games. I'd rather not have karma points deducted because I am doing what the nature of the beast calls for!
I don't want to group up with nasty people, that would make is miserable for ME!

I'd suggest the demo not have any MP. Just create a single player demo with an improved AI.

Reasoning for this:

1) New players should practice first and SP is good for this.

2) Newb demo players would be cannon fodder in most games and may get a bad taste due to always losing.

3) I've only played two DG so far. Even limiting a MP demo to 1 DG and 1 map, provides much of the full game. All of the maps are very similiar.

4) Providing a MP demo limited to certain DG and certain maps would cause full game players to see a lot of that DG and map. Which isn't too fun.

thanks again Brad for demonstrating that my trust in your company has not been misplaced. i'm greatly looking forward to upcoming improvements in what is already a very fun game.

i would very much suggest that the the demo version should be limited by randomly choosing which demigod you get to play as. that way it would entice people to play the demo ALOT to get to try all 8 demigods. it would also allow access to the full experience but with enough of a hurdle that they would want to pay money to get rid of it if they enjoyed it.

Coupon for 50% off Elemental for those of us that ordered before this next patch.

Sadly, I do not know a single other PC gamer in my area, and I'm loathe to just give it away to just anybody.

Demo:

Should include a mini-tutorial. Screenshots overlayed with explanatory text even.

Should have an SP component (Skirmish only). As mentioned, they'll get crushed and flamed online. Need to be careful with the online. If you seperate them out and allow customers in, a bunch may take the chance to just wail on the demoers. Have more Mods in the demo group.

2 Demis. Assassin and general. (TB and Oak or Rook and Oak.)

1 or 2 maps. Cataract should be in, imo.

Access to only a few favor items.

Favor does not accumulate, stats aren't tracked, no achievements, no pantheon.

Have friendlist.

Perhaps a 5% off coupon?

Random thought: Demo tournaments for bigger coupons?

You should sponsor tournaments from the community sites. Like Demigod-live and GameReplays.

For the Demo Version I defanitially Feel that Allowing 2 characters and almost all of the store baught items would b the best way 2 market- Defanitialy leave them wanting more

Probably won't be a popular idea... but I'd just release the whole game as-is for your demo. I mean it is already being copied around freely, seeded heavily on torrents, etc. Lots of people using pirated copies have been convinced to buy from playing the pirated copy, so you know it works.

They'd only have single player and if they really want to try - hacked mp via gameranger or hamachi - but lets face it, that sucks. You should maintain that coupon on a 2nd copy with purchase to promote sales, word of mouth. That along with future updates, access to the full community and newly released content will guarantee incentive to buy.

As people have mentioned new players really ought to spend some time in bot skirmishes until they've learned the ropes. If they get into the online community too soon, they'll just get yelled at, and be frustrated.

PS. I assume you meant some sort of crippled multiplayer, otherwise between the demo and the pirated copy - people would get access to most of the game.

Quoting DoKTa_T,

reply 2

Demo -

2 Demigods, 2 maps. 1 Assassin class, 1 General class.

This and

- Allow MP and SP

- Allow Favour

I don't see any reason not to dissalow the rest of the of the things, restricting to two mand and demigods gives people enough of a taste and should have them wanting to play the other demigods and purchase the game to do so.

1. What if your PC/router/etc have good UPnP support? Will the game at least try to open the ports and do a direct connect, and if it fails, then go to the NAT server?

2. Hear me out on this - I think you're going about the whole "demo" thing all wrong. Pirates download the full Demigod, but they don't get the latest version so it has bugs, and they can't play "legit" online. You currently don't do anything to stop this, but rather try to add value to legit customers.

So here's what I'm thinking. You make the full version of Demigod a free download over Impulse. You can't log in to play online without a key, of course, which you have to pay for. It's the full latest game, all bug-fixed and patched, you can skirmish all you like, etc. It's what people are pirating, only with the bugfixes in (for crash to desktops, sound issues, and so on). Make sure that the game, when you're not logged in with a valid key to play online, has a nice big jolly button on the main menu that says "purchase Demigod for free updates, new demigods, online play, tournaments, and more!"

Basically, people who haven't paid or won't pay for Demigod have two choices:

1. They can warez the game. It will be unpatched and have some critical bugs not even related to multiplayer, so they'll maybe have an unfavorable impression and be less likely to buy.

2. They can download the demo. If it's a non-multplayer demo, it's a limited version of the game. And as you bugfix and re-balance the main game in the future, the demo gets out of date, or you have to apply those improvements to that version as well, which is more work. If it's an online play demo, someone "sampling" the game plays against experienced players and has a bad time of it, or experienced players complain about games being "tainted" with "demo noobs."

I say, give people the best of both worlds. Let them get the "full", latest game in a totally legal fashion even more easily than they would if they warez it. Make the value that you add for paying customers even more obvious, really hit the Free players over the head with it, and put a link right in the game for people to go right to Impulse and buy. Make sure people know, right from within the game, exactly what they're missing if they are Free players - free extra demigod or map downloads, online play, ranking, tournaments, building Favor, etc.

Basically, make the warez version irrelevant while simultaneously giving people a better, fuller demo experience, and making it easier for people to purchase the game if they like it (no need to re-download a non-demo or non-warez version, no need to patch up, just buy a key and log in).

Good one Frogboy. Just keep pampering us with technical, logical explanations regarding our current problems and continue devising actual solutions to them. Raise the bar so high that no one can compete...

I haven't seen this level of useful interaction with the community since the days of Carmack's .plan updates.

Limit demo to one General and one Assassin. Only 2 maps.

Make it OFFLINE only. NOT online... You would be taking too much risk with the pirates. Players are used to demos being offline and they must pay to go online, no need to change this.

i'm not sure i agree with the full limitation on map selection, as that will tend to concentrate demo players in certain games... and with each other... and if all they can play AND play against are the same set of DG on the same maps, that might not be best.

Incidentally, will the moderators have the ability to subtract karma from rage-quitters? I think that would solve some problems

You make the full version of Demigod a free download over Impulse. You can't log in to play online without a key, of course, which you have to pay for. It's the full latest game, all bug-fixed and patched, you can skirmish all you like, etc. It's what people are pirating, only with the bugfixes in (for crash to desktops, sound issues, and so on). Make sure that the game, when you're not logged in with a valid key to play online, has a nice big jolly button on the main menu that says "purchase Demigod for free updates, new demigods, online play, tournaments, and more!"

This works too, +1

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Demigod: Breakthru

Yes!