Stat upgrade skills - any use it?

By on April 24, 2009 12:34:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Deepjay

Join Date 04/2009
+16

Along the bottom of each skill tree is the one with the cross symbol which beefs your stats across the board by a small amount.


Does anyone actually use these upgrades? I'm finding more and more that I'm basically not using them and wondering if i should be.

 

Thoughts?

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April 24, 2009 12:42:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It depends on how you play, the % attack speed can be really good if you're not completely focusing on using special attacks. I tend to rank up the assassin's stats skill more than the general's though.

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April 24, 2009 12:43:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm using them when fighting as TB only Fire , as i hate switching to ICE when i have all fire skill i just get + stats

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April 24, 2009 1:51:33 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

For UB I sometimes use it.  Not alot.

Frankly I think they could do with just being removed.   The game needs more legitimate skills.

You only have 30 skills to put your 20 points you can earn into, there abouts, and 5 of those are the passive line at the bottom.. Kinda meh.

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April 24, 2009 1:51:51 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting RobinHood126,
It depends on how you play, the % attack speed can be really good if you're not completely focusing on using special attacks. I tend to rank up the assassin's stats skill more than the general's though.

 

That, and the general's stat upgrade only boosts your minions, not the DG itself.

The stat upgrade on the assassins is a good place to put extra points if there are no other skills you want, or it's easy to ignore it altogether, as none of the skills on the assassins are useless. (that i can think of at the moment)

TB is probably the best example, locking down an opponent with ice spells then finishing them off with a fireball when they try to run is always good. I dont really use regular attacks at all as TB on other DG's unless they are ignoring me and all other spells are on cooldown, as such, i ignore the stat upgrade for him.

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April 24, 2009 5:02:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not using ice because of
Staff of Renewal , flags -15% cd's
I almost always have 2-4 sec cooldown for fireball, if 2 seconds is switching between modes it just sux i'm just using rotation
Nova / fireball / circle / fireball / Nova etc, i dont want to waste my time to switch between modes and thats why i prefer some hp/mana regen and attack speed.

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April 24, 2009 5:15:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

last 2 points as UB usually.

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April 24, 2009 5:20:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I´m using it when I wanna do a narrow build. Like UB with Spit, inner and that slow thing. Then I can put some stats down because it gives a neat allround buff. Some might argue there is better ways to build a DG and that this and that way is the best. It´s all situational imo. Sometimes I go for pure minion generals and use "morale" as well.

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April 24, 2009 7:29:50 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

1 point with rook

I normally play fire/ice build TB

There's level 1 skills better then them for UB

Same for regulus as UB

lol general stat points.

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April 24, 2009 7:39:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I sometimes get them on Regulus later on when I don't need any of the normal skills and I'm waiting for others to unlock.

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April 24, 2009 9:45:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have a devastating Regulus build that focuses on his regular attacks. I get the Attribute upgrade every chance I get. Combining it with a couple of well thought out items can lead to an incredible early game advantage. It all depends on your build. Having 4 activatable skills isnt always the answer. Sometimes you only have one or two and at that point the all around bonus of the stats really helps.

I would HIGHLY recommend you try your normal build with each character and cut out one of your skills to take attributes. See what happens to your char. Make necessary item changes (generally with less skill you will need less Mana and hence mana regen). Its worth it to check it out.

Obviously if you dont use your normal attack like the TB player above, stats really dont do anything for you as half the bonuses are for your normal attack. On a Demi like Regulus or UB who have a good reason to use their normal attack, the stats can be invaluable.

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April 24, 2009 10:40:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

regulus without mines and 1 point snipe ... otherwise hmm final 2 points in erebus

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April 24, 2009 10:51:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yup.. I've been playing a with a regulus build where I only take 1 point in any active skill - snipe. I max out AF, and max out my attributes, and spend all my cash on attack speed and health, with enough mana to keep my AF alive.

The DPS from his basic attack ends up being rediculous - ~2.5k per hit, with a 0.5 (+66%) attack speed. No need for active skills when you're hitting for massive damage so quickly

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April 24, 2009 11:22:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm with uvfragm and chaosbryn on that one.

A Regulus built for attack speed and life leech gets a lot more advantage from the ability boosts. That and his AoE attack makes him a monster during mid-game (lvl 10+, 15-20k gold)... usually a lot faster then most other demigod, except a UB that goes for the same build.

 

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April 24, 2009 11:41:55 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not surprised to find some people finding real uses for Enhanced Attributes, but uvfragm's post in particular is upsetting.

Never do I want anyone to be able to make a kill on someone simply by right clicking on them.  These builds sound like the maximum output from the minimum input -- and you could argue that its the uses of gold and the premeditation of the build that makes it legit, but it nonetheless makes the game far less participatory.

I like fights where Sedna's constantly barely keeping herself alive with heals, or where Torch Bearer is stance switching to kite you while keeping the damage going.  Builds that allow you to win with a standard attack just sounds boring for the attacker, frustrating for the defender, and should not be able to function well.

That's my 2 cents.

I would rather Enhanced Attributes and Morale be replaced by another line of demigod-specific skills.

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April 24, 2009 1:56:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZephyrTR,
I'm not surprised to find some people finding real uses for Enhanced Attributes, but uvfragm's post in particular is upsetting.

Never do I want anyone to be able to make a kill on someone simply by right clicking on them.  These builds sound like the maximum output from the minimum input -- and you could argue that its the uses of gold and the premeditation of the build that makes it legit, but it nonetheless makes the game far less participatory.

I like fights where Sedna's constantly barely keeping herself alive with heals, or where Torch Bearer is stance switching to kite you while keeping the damage going.  Builds that allow you to win with a standard attack just sounds boring for the attacker, frustrating for the defender, and should not be able to function well.

That's my 2 cents.

I would rather Enhanced Attributes and Morale be replaced by another line of demigod-specific skills.
.

 

Why are you worried about what other people find fun about playing the game? I play Reg like this as well. I have NO activatable skills. My game is played by being underestimated by my opponents, being where I need to be and strategically outmaneuvering and outplaying my opponent. Not having 2 or 3 extra buttons to press doesnt make it any less fun, I find them an annoyance if nothing else. When I play this build all I need is my mouse and the camera keys. This allows me to have MUCH better situational awareness of the entire map as I dont need to keep a hand busy with my skills.

If you dont like to play this way, thats fine. I would never think of telling someone else how to enjoy a game. Personaly, my fun comes from excercising superior strategy over my opponents. More buttons to click gives it no greater appeal. Hell if I could control my Demigod with my mind and not have to use input devices at all Id be rather happy.

As to getting a kill by right clicking, Im sure you realise, its not that easy. You need to know who to go after, what dangers there are and you need to be able to get to a point where you can take out a demigod without a skill that dumps 1k damage on them in the first place. Not an easy thing to do. Lack of buttons to press doesnt mean less skill, its just skill you are obviously not aware of. But thats ok too

Cheers,

Chaos

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April 24, 2009 5:22:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZephyrTR,
I'm not surprised to find some people finding real uses for Enhanced Attributes, but uvfragm's post in particular is upsetting.

Never do I want anyone to be able to make a kill on someone simply by right clicking on them.  These builds sound like the maximum output from the minimum input -- and you could argue that its the uses of gold and the premeditation of the build that makes it legit, but it nonetheless makes the game far less participatory.

I like fights where Sedna's constantly barely keeping herself alive with heals, or where Torch Bearer is stance switching to kite you while keeping the damage going.  Builds that allow you to win with a standard attack just sounds boring for the attacker, frustrating for the defender, and should not be able to function well.

That's my 2 cents.

I would rather Enhanced Attributes and Morale be replaced by another line of demigod-specific skills.

Heh. Any Regulus build that does not include sniping people across the map gets two-thumbs-up from me!

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April 25, 2009 12:24:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting chaosbrynn,

I have NO activatable skills. My game is played by being underestimated by my opponents, being where I need to be and strategically outmaneuvering and outplaying my opponent. Not having 2 or 3 extra buttons to press doesnt make it any less fun, I find them an annoyance if nothing else. When I play this build all I need is my mouse and the camera keys. This allows me to have MUCH better situational awareness of the entire map as I dont need to keep a hand busy with my skills.

So you've found a way to make the game less complicated for yourself in order to have better situational awareness.  You're trying to play chess with only knights, which -- were this chess -- you'd lose every time.  A good game needs to be complicated, and reward its players for a greater breadth and depth of skills.

What I mean to do is to point out when a game has imperfections.  The player who can have both great situational awareness as well as mastery in timing and implication of active skills should win, but as it is I worry that's not necessarily the case.

This has now become a philosophical argument, and I highly doubt you'll be convinced from a forum of an opposing view, but I doubt a game maker whose obviously put more thought and programming and animating into active abilities for characters, in a game where you have more skill points than there are passive skills to use them on, I'm feeling they side with me, and hopefully they're considering this possible flaw.

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April 25, 2009 1:17:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So you've found a way to make the game less complicated for yourself in order to have better situational awareness. You're trying to play chess with only knights, which -- were this chess -- you'd lose every time. A good game needs to be complicated, and reward its players for a greater breadth and depth of skills.

What I mean to do is to point out when a game has imperfections. The player who can have both great situational awareness as well as mastery in timing and implication of active skills should win, but as it is I worry that's not necessarily the case.

This has now become a philosophical argument, and I highly doubt you'll be convinced from a forum of an opposing view, but I doubt a game maker whose obviously put more thought and programming and animating into active abilities for characters, in a game where you have more skill points than there are passive skills to use them on, I'm feeling they side with me, and hopefully they're considering this possible flaw.

 

"Complicated" and "depth" are not at all the same thing.  Take the game of Go or even Reversi.  Very simple games, but they have amazing depth - Go arguably has much more depth than chess for example.  If its necessary to add complications just to have depth in your game, you are doing it wrong.  Some of the most in depth and strategy intense games I have ever encountered (Board or video games) are relatively simple in terms of their rulesets.

 

In this specific case, its not like complications arent possible.  Its perfectly possible to build a skill based Reg instead of an attribute based Reg.  In fact, thats what most people do.  But what this game does is it offers you a CHOICE if you play Reg - you can go skill heavy or skill lite and both work fairly well.  That sounds like depth to me.  You are actually proposing a simplification where one MUST go skill heavy in order to be successful.

 

I find your final argument extremely suspect.  You say that this wasnt what they intended.  What exactly did they intend by having a huge passive attribute skill?  Do you honestly think that they expected nobody to use it in the most obvious way possible?

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April 25, 2009 6:23:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZephyrTR,

Quoting chaosbrynn, reply 15
I have NO activatable skills. My game is played by being underestimated by my opponents, being where I need to be and strategically outmaneuvering and outplaying my opponent. Not having 2 or 3 extra buttons to press doesnt make it any less fun, I find them an annoyance if nothing else. When I play this build all I need is my mouse and the camera keys. This allows me to have MUCH better situational awareness of the entire map as I dont need to keep a hand busy with my skills.




So you've found a way to make the game less complicated for yourself in order to have better situational awareness.  You're trying to play chess with only knights, which -- were this chess -- you'd lose every time.  A good game needs to be complicated, and reward its players for a greater breadth and depth of skills.

What I mean to do is to point out when a game has imperfections.  The player who can have both great situational awareness as well as mastery in timing and implication of active skills should win, but as it is I worry that's not necessarily the case.

This has now become a philosophical argument, and I highly doubt you'll be convinced from a forum of an opposing view, but I doubt a game maker whose obviously put more thought and programming and animating into active abilities for characters, in a game where you have more skill points than there are passive skills to use them on, I'm feeling they side with me, and hopefully they're considering this possible flaw.

 

all it comes down to is ... does he beat people then he is at a higher skill level , if he doesnt hes at a lower ... to know when to go stat points and when not is strategy in itself , to win without having that nuke and going for a more endgame build is a risk which might demand more of you as a player .

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April 25, 2009 8:42:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZephyrTR,
I'm not surprised to find some people finding real uses for Enhanced Attributes, but uvfragm's post in particular is upsetting.

Never do I want anyone to be able to make a kill on someone simply by right clicking on them.  These builds sound like the maximum output from the minimum input -- and you could argue that its the uses of gold and the premeditation of the build that makes it legit, but it nonetheless makes the game far less participatory.

He likes to win and this work with his playing style. He is very focus on his built. Deal with it.

I like to play against people like him. You know people that plays to win and not dick around.

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April 25, 2009 11:55:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZephyrTR,
I'm not surprised to find some people finding real uses for Enhanced Attributes, but uvfragm's post in particular is upsetting.

Never do I want anyone to be able to make a kill on someone simply by right clicking on them.  These builds sound like the maximum output from the minimum input -- and you could argue that its the uses of gold and the premeditation of the build that makes it legit, but it nonetheless makes the game far less participatory.

I like fights where Sedna's constantly barely keeping herself alive with heals, or where Torch Bearer is stance switching to kite you while keeping the damage going.  Builds that allow you to win with a standard attack just sounds boring for the attacker, frustrating for the defender, and should not be able to function well.

That's my 2 cents.

I would rather Enhanced Attributes and Morale be replaced by another line of demigod-specific skills.

I agree and think enhanced attributes only serves to show that something is messed up with the other skills design or balance if people are just using enhanced attributes. :/

To me, enhanced attributes shouldn't be there, and only serves to show the stats tracking that other things need adjusting.

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April 26, 2009 1:42:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In regards to the above discussion, I recently switched from a skills based approach to a stats based approach to Regulus and found much more success with the latter.

At this point, maybe I'm just better at the game but I suspect what's going on is that a stats based approach tends to scale better in terms of DPS over that of a skills based approach. Also, a stats based approach is less dependent on coordination with other teammates. Snipe and grenades work best when coordinated and both rely alot in how the other player responds.

On a regulus angel/stats/maim build you are in a death embrace because you can't run away most of the time. However, Reg is still extremely fragile and has to be 100% aware of what's going on because if you stun/slow him he can be an easy kill. The problem is if you are in weakened position it's hard to just prance away with maim on you if Reg also has speed boosts.

This build does involve A LOT of right clicking, but not just on your opposing hero. Reg cannot afford to get sucked into the fray so he has to do a lot of tiny hits and runs or pick off your support minions until it's the perfect time for the kill.

So, it does take as much skill as snipe or grenades. In fact, snipe is kind of a luck thing I find a lot of time. Luck in mana, luck in range, luck in having it not be on cooldown, luck on opponent having low enough health for it to provide the kill, luck that the opponent didn't top back to their healing crystal just in the nick of time and so forth. Grenades involve the luck of the opponent actually running over your grenades. Certainly, all those things can be somewhat controlled by the Reg player but still people don't always walk where you want them too and good players always run or port away before a snipe would provide the killing blow.

Good game design means that different build provide a difficult choice. If you know that one build is certainly better in the vast majority of situations then you have to take that build. When that is the case, then why even have talent trees at all?

For Regulus, I think the jury is still out. Although I've done better w/ and angel/stats/maim build, I think snipe and grenades are uber if used well. I imagine there will be players better than I to figure this out.

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April 27, 2009 9:46:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I tried out the stats approach to Regulus over the weekend, and I'm pretty skeptical.  At first Skirmish was matching me against newbies, so I crushed them.  But when I got matched against halfway decent players, the skills I wasn't taking became painfully obvious.  In particular (I bypassed Snipe), it was really hard for me to actually score kills, because my enemies just ran away and I couldn't catch them.  If I'd spent more points on skills, then with the money I lost by not being able to finish off retreating opponents, I could easily have puchased items that would have more than made up for the fairly unimpressive boost you get from the stats tree.  I don't think that skipping mines would have been any better: I got a lot of kills off those and was able to use them to escape more than once.

 

I could see this working out in a game with larger and more experienced teams, where your teammates can cover for you until you have enough items to be a real killer, but in smaller matchups you're just too weak at the start of the game, IMO.

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April 27, 2009 10:36:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not a Regulus player yet but isn't there also a disadvantge going stats/snipe in that you are usually farther away from creeps/xp?  I would think this might work as a bit of balance.

As an Oak player this thread made me realize that I needed to look at the stat upgrades closer.  Lately I have focused on Penitence/Shield/AOE and the +hp/mana strike.  I used to go Raide Dead towards the middle once I had my key skills down but I have been avoiing that altogether now.  If the game goes long enough I will grab them but I think I will go stats over RD/Last stand (which I nver use anyhow) and see how I do.  Penitence+melee attack scales vry well with Oak.

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April 27, 2009 10:48:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting lambdaman,
But when I got matched against halfway decent players, the skills I wasn't taking became painfully obvious.  In particular (I bypassed Snipe), it was really hard for me to actually score kills, because my enemies just ran away and I couldn't catch them.  If I'd spent more points on skills, then with the money I lost by not being able to finish off retreating opponents, I could easily have puchased items that would have more than made up for the fairly unimpressive boost you get from the stats tree.

This warms me a bit.  I'd like this to be the case, and I still somewhat believe when against smart players, simple stat upgrades won't fly, just because there's no stun to prevent tele-scrolls and no finishing blow for retreating targets.  A large portion of active skills are built to prevent your opponent from retreating or getting them to mispredict when the time's come that they must retreat to prevent death, aren't they?

Quoting Eternal_Silence,
At this point, maybe I'm just better at the game but I suspect what's going on is that a stats based approach tends to scale better in terms of DPS over that of a skills based approach. Also, a stats based approach is less dependent on coordination with other teammates. Snipe and grenades work best when coordinated and both rely alot in how the other player responds.

While I disagree with you on your argument that a lot of skills are luck-based (How so?  In relation to specifically Regulus, I can easily get enemies to path into my mines by placing them in the middle of the quickest route to my person, and I always check enemy life totals before starting up Snipe) you bring up a really important point that most skills give static damage while standard attack damage scales througout the game as you level, buy items, and when you put points into Enhanced Attributes.  Is that a problem, I wonder?  I'm uncomfortable passing judgment on that until more numbers are crunched.

Quoting Krazikarl,
I find your final argument extremely suspect.  You say that this wasnt what they intended.  What exactly did they intend by having a huge passive attribute skill?  Do you honestly think that they expected nobody to use it in the most obvious way possible?

What makes Enhanced Attributes so "huge"?  I don't understand where that sentiment is coming from.  My argument is that if programmers are going to program functions and create animations for four (and sometimes six) active abilities, there seems to be a focus there on the active abilities.  Maybe every player won't choose to get all four in one game, and that's likely where the idea of Enhanced Attributes came in, but I doubt they intended for you to not want to take any.  Again, why then would they give you more skill points than there are passive abilities?  It doesn't make sense.

By that logic, I feel my philosophy is more in line with the game's, and I wanna talk it out in hopes of juicin the devs into some smart patches.  If it's not, and the devs are fine with point-and-click-adventure builds, I'm just gonna have to deal, now won't I?  But it hasn't even been proved to me yet that stat-builds are effective early OR late game.  Someone who says "I stat-buff and I own" isn't mentioning whom they 'own' against and how.  There's too little data on the field.

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