JinxOfSin, you're primary argument about the Demigods not having customizability is flawed in that even you failed to mention certain factors of the game which allow players to make their own builds the way they want. Right now it's obvious that if you are to think that the meager ability tree is the key to customization, I'm afraid you've been mislead. The ability tree ultimately doesn't do much to personalize your Demigod, and in the course of battle doesn't make any dramatic changes. What does change your Demigod's playstyle is equipment and artifacts.

Some pieces of Equipment even have the abilities of other Demigods attached to them, and a lot of the equips give you powerful new abilities the root Demigod you selected never had. So feel free to point out all you like on the lack of skill tree selection, just as long as you understand there is much, much more to the game than just the skill tree which effects the performance and customization of your Demigod.

there are items as well in dota... (Jinx ninja posted me)

Guys seriously withhold discussion about this until we at least see beta2 and then discuss in a polite manner without bashing others or other games.

I think the planned Item count is something between 70 and 100 or so, there are like 40-50 in it currently I think.

This

Edit: Also, I want a chicken mule!

No harm in speculating though

In all seriousness, if we can keep discussions civil regarding demigod vs dota comparisons, the threads can be very constructive for GPG/stardock.  On the one hand, they're trying to make the game more mainstream.  However, I'm pretty sure they don't want to alienate DoTA players and would like Demigod to be attractive to them.  I used to be a very hardcore dota player (you can probably tell) and most hardcore dota fans I know who tried this game are now getting disillusioned.  Our complaints and comparisons are a product of that.  Ke5trel's always civil, but many others take the complaints as some sort of blanket "demigod sucks" statements.  That's pretty absurd - we bought the pre-order after all so we have as much vested interest in its success as you do.

If you don't want to participate in the debate, just ignore the thread.  It's pointless to demand silence.

I think one of the main reasons why DoTA fans are unhappy is partly because we're a bit too conservative.  We're used to the aspects that made DoTA pros "pros".  Things that would contribute to this would include (apologies for jargon - just ask if something's not clear)

-last hits/creep denies

-map awareness** <- most critical

-effective jungling (basically not participating in the normal lane squirmishes and just killing neutrals.  for example, TB is a great char for this)

-counter jungling

-solid understanding of heroes strengths and weaknesses

-solid understanding of heroes synergies with each other and how certain team makeups are more than just the sum of their parts

-all recipes memorized so you know what people are building

-most builds memorized so you know how people are levelling their hero

-knowing when and how to harass

-knowing when and how to gank/ambush

-reaction time and apm

Again, I haven't played in 2 years, so the game has probably evolved quite a bit since then.  However, back when I was playing, these were the indicators of someone's skill level at the game.  Unfortunately, most of the skills do not translate well to demigod.  That is, their game isn't designed ina way that requires high levels of some of the aforementioned skills.  For the most part, they can probably achieve many of these with some good number tweaking and rebalancing (ie. making creeps stronger and worth more so 'last hits' is more important).  However, it's also imperative that they fix their UI as it doesn't feel as tight and responsive as wc3's UI.  Without tight and responsive UI, the hardcore competitive people will shun it.  Likewise, if you don't allow for really deep and skilled micro.

Imagine if counterstrike didn't have headshots and no matter where you shot them, it would deal the same damage.  To a noob, it wouldn't affect much.  However, that'd put a hard limit on max skill level attainable.  By enabling headshots, you drastically raise that ceiling.  Same thing goes for Starcraft.  I don't think the concept as we know today as starcraft micro was part of their design.  However, because of that micro, it widens the gap between 'pros' and 'noobs'. 

In order for a game to be embraced by the hardcore competitive folk, the game needs to have features which allow people to really "GET GOOD" at the game.  In other words, the distance between a 'noob' and a 'pro' should be a near endless chasm.  That said, the game doesn't need to be noob-unfriendly, although it will often degenerate into that unless the noobs can practice (that's where a good single player can help).

First of all, Jinx post=win

Second, We or at least I don't need over 9000 heroes, but 8 won't even permit 5vs5 matches despite that there's a 5vs5 map. At launch they would need at LEAST 10. And even then, no matter how customizeble a hero can be it would get stale with only 10. The variety of match ups would be very limited and there would be alot of times where you would feel like you already had that hero as an ally 10 times in a row already.

There's a lot of things in my above post that can be translated to demigod if they really tweak their numbers.  Creep last hits and creep denies are easy to implement and are highly rewarding when you get good at it. 

They also need to make sure that you never, ever fight with the UI.  The UI should honestly feel like your brain is directly commanding it.  There shouldn't be a "translation layer" where you have to think what you want to do then think about how to do it.  It's really hard to put that part into perspective right now because the current Beta's UI is absolutely a train wreck.  Beta2 promises to fix some of the shortcomings so we'll see.

They also need to implement things that can help you have better map awareness.  Heroes should have an outline or something to help you distinguish them from the creeps in the battlefield.  On the minimap (which is coming in beta 2), they need to have large, clear icons telling a)what team they're on and b ) which player they are and c ) what hero they are (this one is optional).  I'm 99% sure this will at least be implemented, since it's such a basic concept.

They can also implement features that benefit from twitch skills.  Even Dota benefits from good apm and demigod should be no different - especially if they want to attract competitive gamers.

Another critical thing they need is to deal with momentum.  If a team has a strong momentum and is doing well, they shouldn't automatically win because of it.  The losing team needs a way to fight back otherwise there will never be a point in playing a game to completion.

Hero-wise, I honestly can't really see it get to the level of dota with the current information they've given us.  It may be a preference thing, but I really think that 8 heroes, each with ~8 skills, will get stale pretty quickly.  If they can somehow keep it always feeling fresh and really ensure that no game plays the same, then i'll be happily wrong about this.

Now, going back to the items.  Item depth can also really help the game's level of depth.  However, if the items degenerate into more-or-less of a case of rock-paper-scissors, then you're actually taking several steps backwards, imo.  Personally, I liked the recipes from DoTA but i can see how they'd pose a barrier to new players.  That said, GPG/stardock needs to come up with something that makes its item system a system that warrants some degree of studying and experimentation. 

I'd also like to make a point that gpg/stardock needs to beware adding things for the sake of adding it.  When you shovel features into a game that aren't really related, or don't compliment the central gameplay, the game will end up feeling like a smorgasboard of fluff.  The most critical thing is to ensure that the foudation of the game is rock solid before adding stuff.  They need to make sure that even at "level zero", without the distracting additions, the game still has many degrees of complexity.

Lastly, they also need to REALLY beware adding "cop-out" features.  Let's suppose there's a feature that's suppose to either solve a design problem or introduce a layer of strategy.  However, when the designer can't really think of a good way to intrinsicly make the feature a part of the game and instead unelegantly slaps it on, that's a cop-out feature. A good example of this is when there's something intrinsicly broken with the game and instead of correcting the problem at its roots (that might mean tweaking the engine itself or its battle system), they throw on a band-aid to 'patch it up'.  The problem hasn't gone away, it's just not as obvious.  When people get to the "pro level" the flaw will become significantly more visible.

I think some of this stuff will be addressed with Beta 2 release, but -

A decent explanation of last-hitting and denying can be found here if you don't play DoTA. 

This is part of why they brought the flag mechanic in.  How could flags be implemented to better allow dynamic play?

No one will disagree with you here.  There's been debate about recipes, and we've seen some threads that present alternate systems.  Regardless, this is the thing on your list that I think will make or break the game.  The item system must be fundamental, polished, accessible, and deep. 

I hate to sound elitist, but again, if you haven't gotten really good at DoTA, I don't think you can properly compare the two.  Most of DoTA's gameplay is not apparent to beginners (same way went for me at first).  Allowing multiple heroes (especially a low number) won't make the game fresh unless the heroes can diversify themselves.

Basically, if you go the dota route, you can have relatively simple heroes and tons of them.  The heroes will each have a certain niche to fill and slightly differing gameplay from other heroes.  Their combos and synergies will be different.  Note that even in dota, heroes DO HAVE multiple build paths and multiple playstyles.  to say that each hero has only a single build is just WRONG.

If you want to go the Demigod route, you need to make sure that they have an extremely diverse range of customizable options.  Moreso, you also need to make sure that the same demigods can have drastically different end game.  In DoTA, although most heroes have multiple build paths, in the end game, those multiple build paths tend to converge.  If demigod can make it so that at the level cap, the builds are radically different - ie. the builds DO NOT converge, then that'll be a good start to ensure diversity.  However, if they do converge, the game would basically be the same as DoTA but with 8 heroes instead of ~90.

The above being said, I do hope that, to meet the standards placed by DOTA, we get many more characters in expansion packs.   Like more than 2 per expension (unless the expanions do something else really cool)

I also am cursed at f or being a noob.  Which is why demigod excites me .    I like DotA, but I find it frustrating because I suck at it.

this

  Now, I'd like to share some insights once again after reading through the thread. As someone who tried to take part of the DotA game, I will admit I found it very daunting to enjoy the game for what it was - a game. My biggest issue was the level of seriousness that the players too part it really turned it off to a larger crowd community, and merely restricted it to the shut-ins who wanted to find something new after the Counterstrike fad had came to a conclusion. I imagine hardcore DotA players are once again looking for yet another Counterstrike, and some of them may be hoping to transform Demigod into that vessel of elitist joy they gorged upon so much when DotA was in its prime some years ago. 

  Since DotA has fallen from grace, not in gameplay, but merely in the line of "Wow, why am I still playing this game?" standpoint - we must ask ourselves "Is Demigod the next fad?". At this stage in Beta, that is impossible to tell, but let it be known that the chance could arise. And that may actually prove to be problematic to the larger success ratio of the game itself within the market. Should this happen, we must understand that the elitist market has a tendency to push and shove away as many players as possible from their beloved game. Why not? That only reduces the competition and assures more success. I was turned off by DotA because I could not have fun with the game - the players themselves sucked away the fun from me as though it was precious life to fuel their own vigorous flame. 

  I enjoy easy going RTS games, games I can sit down and enjoy in a quick sitting and be on with my busy life style. I do not desire to waste my life away in front of a computer, or spending it with my Demigod-Clan on Saturday nights, all night, training and bashing away on keys and mouse clicks in order to prepare myself and my team mates for the next viritual MLG major tournament hosted on 1 television network with a $10,000 cash prize. 

  But doesn't every RTS, any popular RTS I should say, suffer from this flaw in their community? 

  I for one think so, and I feel it is those players who are more serious and dedicated to their game which can potentially hinder other players from really sinking their teeth into the world of Demigod. If anything comes out of this discussion, I'd like it to be an understanding that not everyone wants Demigod to be transformed into DotA. I include myself in that number of people who wish not to see this game become it, and hope very much for a fresh take on something new and interesting. With this being said, I do not want to shut out the elite community. I bare not hard feeling to them for ruining my favorite games. 

  There just needs to be an understanding, mainly on the developers side of things, that the two communities really need to be separated. For instance, I will not have very much interest in online Tournaments if they are constantly infested with uber elites who demand a level of play style equal or greater than their own in order to succeed. I'm sorry, I'm a casual gamer. I have a life, and I produce artwork and write, and I enjoy that life style. I want to take part in Demigod Tournaments where people are more my standard of play, and I get rewarded equally to that of the Hardcore players. 

  A potential monkey in the clockwork of that scheme is that the Hardcore players can bleed over into to the tamer Tournaments in order to achieve an easy victory. Crafting a way to keep the Hardcore folk separated from the Casual folk would be nice, complicated, but ultimately very necessary if this games begins to appeal to DotA fans. I don't want to have to feel as though I'm inferior to someone because I choose not to spend all hours of my life playing a single game. 

  I don't mean this post as an attack, it's a serious and valid concern and an expression of past experience with the DotA/Counterstrike community.  

Regarding quality versus quantity, I should point out that it isn't just a matter of game mechanics. Demigod oozes style, and Demigods have character. They are interesting, beautifully modelled and animated, even the paragraph each of backstory we've had so far is good.

I think Dota is based around an excellent concept, and I'm pleased to see it realised as a retail game. I don't think that all DoTA's little quirks and minutae (some merely holdovers from WC3) are necessary to make the game good though, and am pleased to see GPG take Demigod in their own direction.